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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: curiousgeorge1 on Tuesday 24 May 11 17:34 BST (UK)
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Hi, new member here :)
I'm looking for a marriage in Cork 1 December 1844 between Henry Schumacker and Catherine Johnson. I have this date from various birth certificates.
I am also looking for their son Henry Shumacker born around 1846 in Cork. There are two other children born in Ireland, assumed also to be in Cork:
Mary ~ 1850
Noble ~ 1852
Any advice greatly appreciated
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Not sure where your up to in finding out about researching Irish records? There's good info on this site under 'Irish Resources'.
Not sure if you have other details such as occupations, religion or possible areas in Cork they lived.
Seems to be a few Schumaker's in Killmallock?
All this is good to know so ideas/thoughts can be offered.
Nevertheless I've been researching a number of Johnson families in Cork so I'm interested from this perspective.
Haven't found a S(c)humaker connected to Johnson's on the various sites such as IrishGeneology or Mallow Heritage Centre. Where the baptism's you mentioned in Cork?
There is a possible clue which you may already know? You mentioned a first name 'Noble'. Not common in Cork.
However there were a number of Noble Johnson's, Fathers and son's, living in Rockenham Passage West.
This Johnson family came to Cork in the late 17th Century.
Noble Johnson Esq was Major of Cork in 1809; his son William and later Grandson, also Noble, lived at Rockenham. Not sure if he had a daughter Catherine...a list of some of the family can be found in an online book 'A selection of arms authorized by the laws of heraldry'.
I recall that there were quite a number of mentions of Noble Johnson in various Cork newspapers and because they were well known, marriages are more likely to be mentioned in the papers of the day.
You could try IrishNewspapersArchives.com. It costs but it's a great site and one I've found very useful.
It might be worth checking other online mentions of this family if you think it might be relevant.
Hope this ain't a red herring?
padraig
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Thanks for this
So far I have:
Catherine Johnston b 1827 -1829 Ireland, m 1/12/1844 Cork, d 6/4/1909 Glasgow aged 78
Henry Shumacker b 1819-23 Hanover, m 1/12/1844 Cork, Sugar boiler
Henry Shumacker b 1846 Cork, m 5/2/1878 Glasgow, d 31/3/1899 Seaman
Information from birth certificates, death certificates and 1861 & 71 censuses
I have seen the Noble Johnson in Rockingham, Cork in Griffiths valuation but I have been unable to connect this to my Catherine Johnston.
I have not been able to find the birth of Catherine or wedding of Catherine & Henry or the birth of their son Henry.
They named one of their children Noble Shumacker (b 1851), so this ties in with Catherine's father being Noble Johnson.
I think that the family must have left Ireland between 1852 and 1858
I will follow up with some of the resources mentioned
Catherine's death certificate gives her fathers occupation as brewer.
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I have this date, Dec 1844, from Scottish birth certificates. They moved to Scotland ~ 1854
I have not been able to find any record of the marriage. Can anyone suggest anything.
The birth certificates give m Dec 1844 Cork.
Henry Shumacker, b ~1830 Hanover
Catherine Johnson b~1831 Ireland Parents Noble Johnson & Mary Edwards
As I write this I realise that the dates don't match up, they would have been around 14. Yet the estimated birth dates come from various censuses and the marriage date from a birth cert.
Yet another mystery from this line
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To check for the marriage you would really need to know the denomination the family were, and also which part of Co. Cork it took place. RC records for the South West of the county are available free on www.irishgenealogy.ie. RC and CofI records for some other sections of Co. Cork, mostly the north east, are on a pay-website.
see : Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html)
My Ancestor came from Ireland - where do I start? (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,498742.0.html)
Shane
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Marriage record for Schumacker/Johnson December 1844 Cork, name given as Margaret Johnson.
There is a baptism record on irishgenealogy.ie for a Margaret Johnson, 14/08/1828. Parents Thomas Johnson & Elizabeth Canty. Baptism is in Clonakilty.
Regards
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Thanks for these replies.
This family is so elusive I tend to follow up every lead I can get on the Shumacker side. I wonder how I can find more information on this wedding you refer to?
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Anyone got any suggestions why I can't find this marriage?
Been looking for a number of years, including posting on this site. I have this date from subsequent birth certificates.
The groom's name is Shumacker, a sugar boiler from Hanover.
The bride's name is Johnson.
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Anyone got any suggestions why I can't find this marriage?
Been looking for a number of years, including posting on this site. I have this date from subsequent birth certificates.
The groom's name is Shumacker, a sugar boiler from Hanover.
The bride's name is Johnson.
Civil registration of Catholic mariages started in 1864 and non-Catholic marriages in 1845 so you need to search for a church record of the amrriage. Not all registers for this period survive and of those that do not all are available online (pay or subscription sites).
You've asked for help finding this marriage before- duplicate posts cause needless extra work for those trying to help and are not going to make the information magically appear.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,534462.0.html
Have a look at Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html) and My Ancestor came from Ireland - where do I start? (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,498742.0.html).
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Ouch
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you usually need a location (parish, town, or townland) to start a search for record before the start of civil registration - ideally the denomination also. 'Cork' can refer to the city or the county, which is the largest in Ireland and has large number of different parishes.
see : Shumacker Johnson Wedding 1844 Cork (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,589602.0.html)
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Have you following the advice given in the previous topic? "There's good info on this site under 'Irish Resources'.
Lots there and new links being added all the time. This one in particular might be where you might find information-
http://www.rootsireland.ie/ifhf/map.php
There's also a CORK RESOURCES section at the top of this board. In general you need to know the family's religion and where they lived (parish if not actual townland) but in this case with an unusual, un-Irish surname you might be lucky (although spelling of it could be a problem).
Added- see that Shane has posted a link to another topic for the same marriage and already had given you links to the 2 topics for tracing Irish ancestors.
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Thank you both. What with the Irish and German connections this family keeps things interesting.
Still stuck but that is part of the fun.
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I think the occupation might give a clue... at least if he was a sugar boiler when he was in Ireland.
Might be worth checking Slater's 1846 (http://www.failteromhat.com/slater.htm) for sugar manufacturers & processors, and also the various Cork city and county directories (There's a link in Cork Resources).
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Thank you. I've already looked at a sugar boilers website but not this trade directory. Will follow this up.
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As regards Henry Schumachers date of birth,the LDS I.G.I have him as born circa 1819.
Margaret Johnson b 1823.
Brionne.
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Thanks for this...I will follow it up.
Re the reposting of the question...I should probably have placed it in chat as I was looking for somewhere to share my frustration and wondering if anyone could inspire me.
Thanks for your replies.
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Can someone enlighten me. Posted many times on my search for Shumacker and Catherine Johnson married in Cork in 1884. Grateful for all the help previously given.
I would link to previous answers if I was clever enough ;D
Don't want anyone to spend time searching for things that have already been answered in previous posts.
This question is specifically about the Church of Ireland. I have reason to believe they might have been married in 1844 in the Church of Ireland. Their daughter was married in Glasgow in the Episcopal Church, something that might indicate previous connection with Church of Ireland.
How does Church of Ireland in 1844 differ from other church records. Does this make searching easier or harder. I don't know where in Cork they were married
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if the marriage was in 1844 you need to know where in Co. Cork, as in which parish. Some church of Ireland records for the N.E. of the county are on rootsireland
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one of the previous topics http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=647517.0
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I have been reading the introduction to Irish records and now understand that the Church of Ireland is one alternative to the Catholic Church.
I am grateful for the previous help. I just thought the episcopal connection might make a difference in where I looked.
In Scotland we have the Church of Scotland which is different from the Scottish Episopal Church which is part of the Anglican communion.
I understand that previous questions were very helpfully answered. I didn't fully understand the Episcopal connection.
I presume that because of the dominance of the Catholic Church as the national church the Episopal church was a minority alternative
Previous links to the one and only marriage to Margaret Johnson have been tantalising but almost sure it is the wrong Johnson, however much I would wish otherwise.
I have Catherine's parents as Noble Johnson and Mary Edwards, this information from her death certificate.
Once again I am not asking for revisiting of old queries. I thought the Anglican angle was worth pursuing.
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to give you an idea of the no. of parishes you would have search see the map on the Irish times roots site : http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/civilparish/index.cfm?fuseaction=GetMap&CityCounty=Cork
Episcopal = Church of Ireland here, and was the established religion here in the early 1800s
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Cross posted......thanks for this.
He was a sugar boiler so I have always presumed, dangerous, that it was the city of cork where refineries would be found.
Once again not looking for anyone to go searching for something we have not previously been able to find.
Got excited about the episcopalian angle......clutching at straws
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The Church of Ireland was the Established (i.e. State) Church and entirely separate from the Roman Catholic religion. Thus, the civil parishes are those of the Church of Ireland but Catholic parishes will have their own names and boundaries.
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Thanks for this.
Previous posts helped me understand that getting married in the English Episcopal Church in Scotland was extremely unusual.
Didn't realise that the Church if Ireland was Episcopalian. The Church of Scotland, state church, is different from the Scottish Episcopalian Church.
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I think Church of Scotland is closer to Presbyterian
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That is correct. I think it is regarded as the state church. I could be wrong though.
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You must be a lucky charm.
Just found an announcement in a paper. Correct date, correct fathers name...
A wedding between Kate Johnson and Henry Sochomorker of Germany ;D
In the Cathedral of Cork no less by the very Rev the Dean of Cork
Yeh.....those who I have troubled will know how long I have been looking for this
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At last I have a lead for this elusive marriage. As you know I have been searching for a wedding on 1st December 1844 in Cork between Henry Shumacker and Catherine Johnson.
I have now found a newspaper report detailing a marriage on that date between a Mr Henry Sochomorker and Kate, youngest daughter of the late Mr Noble Johnson.
By the Very Rev the Dean of Cork, in the Cathedral.
Pretty sure these records will also have been lost although I believe there may have been a transcription
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The church of Ireland Cathedral was St. Fin Barre's and the place to check for records is the Representative Church library in Dublin. A marriage record from 1844 will not show very many details, prob. just date, names of bride and groom possibly addresses and maybe witnesses
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Thanks
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according to an old list I have the records for St. Finbarr's go back to the 1750s
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Does that mean a record for a wedding in 1844 would have survived?
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providing there are no gaps or missing page etc then it appears there may be - but dont expect very much detail
the old list I have is of records held by the RCB library in 2010
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The only sugar refinery I've found to date for that period in Cork is that of Evans, Thwaites & Co at Crosses Green ... doubt he would have wanted to walk far to work.
Location ... www.mawer.clara.net/loc-cork.html
Working conditions ... www.mawer.clara.net/greenwood.html
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;D re walking.
Thanks for the Evans Thwaites
Does it seem logical that a sugar boiler would get married in the cathedral, or was it location based
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Does it seem logical that a sugar boiler would get married in the cathedral, or was it location based
It was probably their local church ... it's just 200m from Crosses Green.
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Makes sense
Haven't made much progress with his Irish wife but I will persevere.
Only confirmed his wedding today , 1st Dec 1845 at the cathedral
That should of course be 1844
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1844 not 1845 ???
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On mobile now so thick finger syndrome
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This ended up on the Lancashire board as I am following this man around the country. I hope it is ok to copy it here as it bears a greater association with Cork.
Just found a Henry Shenmacker renting in Friars Walk, St Nicholas Parish Cork, again within walking distance of refinery and cathedral so a definite possibility.
Henry married Catherine Johnson. Her father was listed as a Brewer on her death certificate.
Would there have been a connection between Brewers and sugar boilers? I am thinking fermentation.....
Evans Thwaites refinery was close by. Also Samuel Abbot brewery.
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Thank you ... will add to db ... it appears to be falling into place.
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Brewers use invert-sugar, produced from lower grade sugars by treatment with acid during the refining process, as they are cheap and in a directly fermentable form, so that the yeast used in the brewing process can act quickly on them. If sucrose were used, the yeast would first have to invert this sugar and the fermenting power of the yeast would be weakened. (summary of 'Sugar' by Geoffrey Fairrie)
By the end of the century, both London and Greenock had large refineries producing just brewer's sugar.
Certainly a connection, though likely the brewer simply a customer rather than a business/ownership link ...
... but if it had been a distillery close to a refinery, then more likely a family link.
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I found them.....or at least a newspaper announcement.
I was looking for Henry Shumacker and Catherine Johnson.....I found Henry Sochomorker and Kate Johnson :o
Correct date, correct father's name for Kate and in the cathedral which would tie in geographically with working in the sugar refinery
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I found them.....or at least a newspaper announcement.
I was looking for Henry Shumacker and Catherine Johnson.....I found Henry Sochomorker and Kate Johnson :o
Correct date, correct father's name for Kate and in the cathedral which would tie in geographically with working in the sugar refinery
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I found them.....or at least a newspaper announcement.
I was looking for Henry Shumacker and Catherine Johnson.....I found Henry Sochomorker and Kate Johnson :o
Correct date, correct father's name for Kate and in the cathedral which would tie in geographically with working in the sugar refinery
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Does anyone know anything about or have access to marriage records in the cathedral for 1844.
I have not posted names because I have asked for enough help regarding this marriage in other posts.
I have only recently found confirmation that this marriage did indeed take place in the cathedral, hence the reason for this specific request regarding the records
I believe that the parish record exists in the RCB. Can I request a copy of this?
I don't expect it to have much detail but it would be nice to have some record of this elusive family
I have the date of the marriage, confirmed through different sources
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Names etc. please
Maggsie
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Take your pick- there are at least 4 topics looking for marriage:
topics merged
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As I said I didn't include names. As you can see from the links above I have periodically consulted the collective wisdom of rootschatter over the years, beginning I think in 2011. This wedding did not appear in any records, and even with help we could not find it. All I knew was the date and place, Cork.
As of two weeks ago I found confirmation that the wedding took place in the cathedral ( a newspaper announcement) hence the specific request re records held.
Sorry I do not know how to link previous questions. I did mark them all as completed.
Now I not only have a specific date but confirmation of location.
Maggsie, if you can offer any assistance with information regarding availability and/or access to records of marriages at the cathedral I would be very grateful.
If I knew that the records definitely existed I might be able to proceed.
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Anglican communion is known in England as Church of England
in Ireland as Church of Ireland
in Scotland as Church in Scotland (Church of Scotland = Presbyterian)
in US as Episcopalian.
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I have made enquiries to the RCB regarding this wedding in 1844.
I've been told that marriages for 1844 do not appear to survive for the cathedral in Cork, that there is a gap between 1804 and 1845, a year too late for me.
It has been suggested that I look at the records of the Registry of Deeds, in Henrietta St Dublin, that the sources in the Registry of Deeds were not affected by the fire in 1922, and include surname indexes organized on a county by county basis. See http://www.landregistry.ie/eng/ I have been told that often marriage settlements were registered there.
Does anyone know anything about these records?
What were marriage settlements? Are they only for some people and not others? This marriage was between a sugar boiler and a brewer's daughter so I wouldn't imagine there was much money around.
"Dec 1 by the very Rev the Dean of Cork, in the Cathedral, Kate youngest daughter of the late Mr Noble Johnson of this city to Mr Henry Sochomorker of Germany"
This from The Evening Packet, Thursday December 5 1844
I may have to satisfy myself with the newspaper announcements
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Hi,
The Johnsons were probably well off as generally it was only well to do /landed gentry who submitted their birth/marriage/death information for publication in the newspapers.
Noble Johnson is listed on the Estate records -
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=2838
You will notice that Noble Johnson had a connection to Castletownroche, Barony of Fermoy and also leased a house named Rockenham, at Marmullane ( Passage West). From what I remember of your queries I think initially you mentioned Fermoy????
Catherine's father you say was Noble Johnson. Well a Noble Johnson was Lord Mayor of Cork City in 1809 this man may have been Catherine's father or grandfather. I think we may have mentioned this information previously too.
Marriage settlements were almost always done prior to the wedding. It was a legal agreement between the parents of the bride and possibly the father of the groom. I have an original one where the parents of the prospective bride assigns a large acreage of land ( over 150 acres) to the bride and groom for them to set themselves up. A lot of marriages were arranged between two well to do families known to each other and often related so that they could keep the estates within their families.
It might be worth it to gain access to the Marriage settlement records as it might give you Catherine's mother's maiden name and also the address where the mother resided at the time of marriage, I think Noble had died by 1844 ( not sure if you mentioned that before or if is said deceased on marriage notice in newspaper). You would also learn what land/house/money they were given on their marriage.
You still have a lot of searching to do.
Mary
Celtic Liberty.
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I certainly do.
Interesting as it doesn't really fit with what I know.
Catherine Johnson married a sugar boiler, his mark appears on subsequent birth certificates instead of a signature, although he did end up as a manager of a refinery in Glasgow thirty years later.
Her father was listed as a Brewer.
These other Noble Johnsons pop up a lot, probably because they were well to do. I need to figure out if they were connected and how. The lack of certificates and records makes this tricky.
Catherine's father was dead in 1844. Catherine and her husband left Ireland a few years after the wedding.
As you say, a puzzle why the announcement appeared in various newspapers if they weren't well to do
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Don't dismiss the idea that Henry Shumaker had money just because he was a sugar boiler.
We are fairly sure that he worked for Evans, Thwaites & Co in Cork. He may well have been the only skilled employee ... as the boiler, he ran the production of the refined sugar surrounded by unskilled labourers. It's quite possible that neither Evans nor Thwaites got their hands dirty in the sugarhouse and without Henry production would have ceased. If that was the situation he would have earned good money.
He was, or became, a skilled man because he went on to manage the refinery of Murdoch & Doddrell at Port Dundas in Glasgow.
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Thank you for this. never assume anything ;D
Can anyone tell me if marriage bonds/settlements for Cork are searchable online?
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SP has an inventory for a Noble Schumacker 1911 coppersmith of Glasgow who died intestate. Might be worth following this name back.
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I don't have access to my notes at the moment but I have a feeling that this was an unmarried son of Henry and Catherine. Their first born was called Henry ( a direct ancestor) and their second son Noble after presumably Catherine's father and also her brother.
Just checked SP and I have the cert, registered by his brother Hermann, parents Henry and Catherine
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1871 Census, 72 Craighall Rd Maryhill,Lanarkshire,Scotland.
Henry Shumaker 48, b 1823, sugar boiler.
Catherine ,44, b 1827 Ireland.
Henry 25, b 1846 Ireland;
Mary 23, b 1848 Ireland.
NOBLE 21, b 1850 Coppersmith apprentice.b Ireland.
Fredrick 19. b 1852 England.
Daniel 18, b 1855 apprentice grocer b England
Marlin 13 b 1858 Greenock Renfrewshire.
Kate 9, b 1862 Glasgow.Lanarkshire.
Herman 7, b 1864 Glasgow.
This shows the families whereabouts a bit clearer.
Also clarifies Sugar Bakers post re Noble Shumaker death Glasgow 1911.
Brionne.
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Thanks for this
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Many thanks for all the help I have had re the Schumackers.
Still unable to find them on 1881 census.....driving me crazy.
Henry & Catherine Shumacker in 1877 at Craighill Rd Glasgow (also 1872 and 1875)
Henry, b 1819 Hanover, died in Liverpool in 1883. Occupation sugar boiler. Catherine b 1825 Cork.
Obit says he died in 1883 at 55 Hopwood St, formerly of Hospital Street Glasgow.
In 1881 two sons, 22 and 28, lodging at 44 King St, Govan.
By 1881 there was a third generation living with their mother Agnes, father Henry at sea. I have traced them.
But where were Henry & Catherine, the grandparents in 1881?
If this is going over old ground I apologise. I am concentrating solely on trying to find Henry b 1819 and Catherine b 1825 between 1877 and 1883 and am running out of ideas.
Apologies, I have just looked at an old post in beginners re 1881 census and we couldn't find it then.
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Am unable to find them in 1881.England Wales Scotland
How about they went to Ireland for a couple of years,after 1877 Glasgow, or even United States.
Appears to me that by this stage in Henry Schumackers life he was reasonably well off.
Will Death Duty Registers 1884 Court Liverpool [paid site]
Henry Schumacker
Cathrne Schumacker Liverpool Widow.
Brionne
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Thanks for the confirmation of difficulty in finding them.
I have the probate calendar record but have not heard of the death duties.
I also wondered about them returning to Ireland.
Just seems odd them disappearing between 1877 and 1883 with their two youngest children, Kate b 1862 and Herman b 1864
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In addition, the probate calendar 1884 refers to, 'in 55 Hopwood St Liverpool formerly of Hospital St, Glasgow'.
This is the first time I have seen Hospital St associated with this family. They were in Craighill Rd in Glasgow in 1877. He was manager of the sugar refinery there.
They had two adult children die in 1877, Mary Wyse (Shumacker) and Daniel Shumacker so who knows what their circumstances were or what took them to Liverpool.
Lots of Shumackers in Liverpool but so far I have not been able to prove a connection since I don't know Henry's parents names ( born in Hanover, married in Cork)