RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: kit54 on Thursday 26 May 11 22:25 BST (UK)
-
Hi,
Please, please could anyone help me to locate the baptisms of Ellis Dudley born abt 1783 to 1784 and Mary Blakeney born abt 1786 to 1791, both in Skibbereen? I know that they were married in 1809 in the Diocese of Cork and Ross and that they emigrated to Liverpool between abt 1832 and 1841.
I know that they had:
Annis born abt 1820
William born abt 1823
Mary born abt 1827(Timoleague)
George born abt 1830
Walter born abt 1832 (Timoleague)
I do not know where Annis, William and George were baptised, and surely they must have had other children born between 1809 and 1820 too? I do not know if they were RC or CofI.
I've tried to find them on the www.irishgenealogy.ie site, but without success.
I would be extremely grateful for any help or advice,
Many thanks,
Chris
-
RC records for the parish of Timoleague only go back to 1842, so you may be out of luck in your search for the baptisms of Mary & Walter, if they were RC
RC Baptism records for Skibbereen go back to 1814, marriages to 1837.
Church of Ireland records are not included for West Co. Cork on IrishGenealogy.
Shane
-
Hi Shane
First of all many thanks you for your reply.
I know Ellis and Mary were born in Skibbereen abt 1783 and 1786 (from Census records). Are you saying that:
1. They would have been baptised elsewhere (I know the church in Skibbereen was only built in the
1820s) and if so, can you guess where?
or
2. They were probably not baptised at all
or
3. They were baptised, somewhere, but no written document was kept?
Going back to the 1780s to 1837, how/where did people from Skibbereen get married and have their children baptised? I got their 1809 marriage from Ancestry's Irish Extraction Records - where did these come from?
I'd be very grateful if you would get in touch again, 'cos I'm really stuck!
Many thanks
Chris
-
option 3 is the most likely - that they were baptised in Skibbereen but written records were either not kept in that parish at that time, or have not survived.
Shane
-
....
I got their 1809 marriage from Ancestry's Irish Extraction Records - where did these come from?
....
The data in that system seems to have been gathered from many sources, but that particular marriage seems to be some sort of book published in Birmingham, Alabama .. so possibly not a primary source. You can view the citation for the record on the Ancestry website.
Shane
-
you didn't mention the family religion... were your Dudley and Blakeney ancestors RC, Church of Ireland, or some other denomination ?
(parishes and districts, availability and dates covered etc is different for each..)
S.
-
Hi Shane, again!
I do not know their religion. In Liverpool, Ellis and Mary's sons married C of E brides and their children were brought up protestant. But one daughter (and probably another too) married an RC husband and their children were baptised catholic!
Do you think that Ellis and Mary's baptisms will turn up when the Cork Ancestral Project has been finished? Do you know when that is likely to be?
I would dearly love to know who Ellis and Mary's parents were. Have you any suggestions at all?
Thanks again
Chris
-
Any details on the sources for the RC parish of Skibereen that I can locate (*) all give the same details - i.e. earliest available records are Baptism records are from 1814, marriages from 1837.
* National Library RC parish details, Irish Times RC record sources, Ryan's Irish Records etc
Few rural RC parishes have records before about 1830.
Sometimes you can try searching adjoining parishes for details in case the families lived near the boundary of the parish, but in this instance none of the neighbouring parishes have any earlier records. You can see a map of the West Cork parishes on the Irish Times website - see : RC Parishes West Co.Cork (http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/corkswrc.htm) (click on the parishes on the map to see details of dates available)
Unfortunately it seems that most Church of Ireland records for the parish of Creagh, which contains Skibbereen, have been lost - probably during the civil war.
Shane
-
Hi again Chris,
First of all the O'Kief Coshe Mang volumes ( 16 in total) are
brilliant but only if you know the parish where your ancestors
came from. The index lists the areas/parishes covered and
some other interesting information. There is not a surname
index so literally you would have to trawl through any parish
that you suspect your ancestors came from. The print is
tiny and even just to go through one parish it could take five
or six hours depending on the size of the parish obviously.
I am inclined to think your Blakeneys and Dudleys are Church of
Ireland but I could be wrong.
I had a look at the newspaper announcements from 1700's to
1828 in Rosemary Ffoliott's and found a few of each surname.
BLAKENEY
The Constitution 19 Oct 1826 on Tuesday morning at the Cathedral
by the Rev. R.Lee and afterwards by the Right Rev. Dr Murphy,
Charles William Blakeney Esq. eldest son of the Rev. T Blakeney
of Holywell in the Co of Roscommon to Ellen Frances only
dau of the late John Jefferies Esq., of Coolcannon in this County
( meaning Cork)
TC 25 July 1827 on Friday evening the lady of Charles William Blakeney Esq. of a dau.
CMC 12 Sept 1806 Sunday morning at Skibbereen John Blakeny
aged 114
CA 1 Aug 1801 at Bath, The Rev Thomas Blakeney of the co of
Roscommon to Miss Alicia Newcombe 2nd dau of the late Primate
of all Ireland.
I will do the Dudleys in a new message
Mary
Celtic Liberty
-
The Dudleys ( also from Rosemary Ffoliotts' newspaper index
DUDLEY
21 Feb 1817 on Saturday in Bandon, Ann Dudley aged 19 ( death)
3rd June 1799 yesterday at St. Anne's church, Mr.Thomas Harman
to Miss Deborah Dudley of Roscrea ( which is in Co. Tipperary)
29 July 1805 last week in Mallow Lane occasioned by a fall from his horse, Mr Gilfard Dudly
26 Sept 1801 at Roscrea Co Tipperary Mr. John Dudley an eminent
tanner, on of the Society of Quakers.
5 Dec 1807 on Tuesday last at Upper Shandon by the Rev Mr Lea
Mr. John Dudley to Miss Margaret Fisher, both of this City.
?? Dec 1807 On Sunday last in Waterford Mr. John Dudley aged 30
years, had resided in Kinsale as professor of French .....
28 Dec 1804 Tuesday last at Patrick's church Waterford,
William Moore Burchell Esq. eldest son of John Burchell Esq.,
of same city to Miss Dudley.
20 Nov 1771 married a few days ago at Corke, Mr. Robert Dudley
clothier aged 36 to the widow Shine aged 84
( No error in the ages!!!!!)
That's it some unusual ages there !!
Did you notice John Blakeney died Skibbereen aged 114 which would mean that he was born about 1692!!!!
These Dudleys were Church of Ireland and well to do as only
the Gentry in the early 1800's would place notices of births,
marriages or deaths.
The reference to Upper Shandon above is more than likely a
reference to St Anns Shandon ( Church of Ireland). Records
not held at the church.
Have a look at the OKief Coshe Mang index to see if any
parishes jump out at you!!
Mary
Celtic Liberty.
-
Their son George is listed on the 1851 census as being born Skibbereen c 1828. He should be listed on the Irish Genealogy site if they were RC. I would guess these people are not RC.
-
Hi Celtic Liberty/Mary,
I am truly humbled by your tremendous and extremely kind efforts on my behalf; I will reply properly soon, but, please, I need to do a little more research, before I do.
Hi Sonas,
Thank you very much for that - I originally had it written down as Skibbereen, but it got missed out during the typing! Apologies! I'm very glad that you took the trouble to point it out - you have come up with a really good point.
Kindest regards to you both,
Chris
-
Hi Celtic Liberty/Mary,
I'd just like to thank you once again for your exceptional kindness - the wonderful help and info that you have given to me has been very eagerly received.
The notion I had of the alphabetical name index in the Casey collection came from (amongst others) Ray Marshall's article on the Casey collection.
I have revisited my notes etc. and now wonder if the evidence for the 1809 marriage (Ellis Dudley and Mary Blakeney) came from Vol IV of this collection, which apparently contains (pages 203 - 277) an Index of Marriages 1716 - 1844 for the Diocese of Cork and Ross.
Assuming that it did come from this, please can you (or anyone else) tell me if there would be any more info available in this volume, or is it just the Index that survived? I have assumed that they were RC because of the fact that the marriage was mentioned in this parish.
Finally, the fact that you have so kindly searched St Mary's and St Anne's for me, coupled with the fact that I have searched SS Peter and Paul and Cork South parish online, leads me to the conclusion that this marriage did not take place in Cork City, as I cannot find another parish there with records that go back to 1809. So, I am assuming that it took place in one of the handful of parishes in SW Cork with records that do go back that far (Bandon, Lislee, Ardfield and Rathberry, Bantry and Schull East). The problem is trying to narrow it down!
Thanks again for your tremendous kindness,
Chris
-
You are welcome.
I am sure if there would be more information in the index. I have a feeling from
previous look ups that it might only be the names of the bride and groom, although
some records in the OKCM volumes give much more details.
I will go to the library during the week, and see what it contains.
A nice sunny day here in Cork so am going to make the most of it.
Will be in touch next week
Mary
-
I meant to add that I looked up the Quaker ( Society of Friends ) records
last Friday looking for Bewleys for another rootschatter and I did come
across a lot of Dudleys. NO Blakeneys though. I thought I had got close!!
The Quaker records were for Cork City, Bandon and Youghal the main
locations where the Quakers lived.
Mary
-
Hi Mary,
YOU ARE A SAINT! You have no idea how FANTASTIC that would be and how grateful I would be - if it is in the index and there is no further detail, then at least I will be able to say that that is that.
PS I don't suppose that when you looked up the quaker records, you noted down the Dudleys that you came across? It's just that I would be interested, if for no other reason than elimination purposes.
Chris
-
Hi again Chris,
Surely you don't think I would go to the library and come across some
information that might help some Rootschatter and NOT write it down!!!
Only joking, of course I wrote it down!!
I only took down the deaths, I don't recall any marriages or births but will
check again during the week.
Deaths
Quakers Cork City
17.3.1833 Susanna aged 18 dau of John
29.3.1834 John aged 2 months son of Joshua
6.6.1835 Rebecca aged 52 wife of Guilford
22.1.1837 Guilford aged 49
15.6.1838 Margaret Dudley age 50 wife of John
10.4.1840 Margaret Dudley aged 16 dau of John
20.1.1849 John Dudley 65, Accountant
Quaker deaths Youghal Co Cork
1812 Dudley Susanna wife of Joshua
12.4.1818 Hannah Dudley
That's it , I will recheck for any marriages or births.
Mary
Celtic Liberty
-
Hi Celtic Liberty/Mary,
I'd just like to thank you once again for your exceptional kindness - the wonderful help and info that you have given to me has been very eagerly received.
The notion I had of the alphabetical name index in the Casey collection came from (amongst others) Ray Marshall's article on the Casey collection.
I have revisited my notes etc. and now wonder if the evidence for the 1809 marriage (Ellis Dudley and Mary Blakeney) came from Vol IV of this collection, which apparently contains (pages 203 - 277) an Index of Marriages 1716 - 1844 for the Diocese of Cork and Ross.
Assuming that it did come from this, please can you (or anyone else) tell me if there would be any more info available in this volume, or is it just the Index that survived? I have assumed that they were RC because of the fact that the marriage was mentioned in this parish.
Finally, the fact that you have so kindly searched St Mary's and St Anne's for me, coupled with the fact that I have searched SS Peter and Paul and Cork South parish online, leads me to the conclusion that this marriage did not take place in Cork City, as I cannot find another parish there with records that go back to 1809. So, I am assuming that it took place in one of the handful of parishes in SW Cork with records that do go back that far (Bandon, Lislee, Ardfield and Rathberry, Bantry and Schull East). The problem is trying to narrow it down!
Thanks again for your tremendous kindness,
Chris
The composition of Cork dioceses (RC and Church of Ireland) has changed through the centuries. In 1809 when this marriage is said to have taken place, Skibbereen was part of the
1. RC diocese of Cloyne and Ross; and the
2. C of I diocese of Cork and Ross
As marriage place and birth of one child are given as Skibbereen, the C of I records there (and those of other denominations) would seem the place to start. I don't think it's a good idea to base research on the current composition of dioceses.
-
Hi Mary and Sonas,
First of all, many thanks for replying - it is really good of you and as always, I am extremely appreciative.
Sonas, you have brought to my attention something which is right at the centre of this issue; I never considered for a moment that the compositions of the dioceses would have changed. Please, where did you get this info from? This alters everything, because it now seems likely that they were indeed C of I and not RC and that I have been barking up the wrong tree! If it was not for you, then I would have continued in this. Can't tell you how grateful I am to you.
Mary, Another huge thank you for that wonderful info, especially re Guilford - this is a name which is in my family. Also, bearing in mind the crucial info that Sonas has imparted, I still think that the 1809 marriage might still be in Vol IV, the only difference is that the Diocese of Cork and Ross will be C of I and not RC.
It would be great if Casey confirms this.
Thanking you both once more,
Chris
-
Hi Sonas & Chris,
I knew there were many changes in the Dioceses over the centuries but
not exactly the make up. Thanks Sonas for that info.
It will be interesting to see what the OKief Coshe vol 4 has for us.
I am hoping to fit in the visit to the library tomorrow otherwise it will be
later in the week.
Will let you know what I come up with
Mary
Celtic Liberty
-
Hi Chris,
Went to the library and looked up the OKief Coshe Mang, vol 4 page 209 "Marriages, Diocese of Cork & Ross, Public records office Dublin,
Generally deficient in Roman Catholic Marriages prior to 1740"
It does confirm what you have -marriage Mary Blakeney & Ellis Dudley for year 1809. No other details. All were in alphabetical order.
There were five other Blakeney marriages including one for a Sarah Blakeney to a
Wellington Dudley year 1837.
There were 22 other Dudley marriages.
One in particular might be of interest
Gulford Dudley m Rebecca Boddy 1807
In another section in volume 4 for marriage licences there was 4 Blakeney marriages
these were listed in date order under "B"
Robert Blakeney m Deborah Smith 1729
Robert Blakeney m Gertrude Blakeney 1752
William Blakeney m Gertrude Smith 1764
Blakeney m Hafford 1782
I checked the St Mary & St Anns church records again and found 7 Dudley marriages but none to Blakeney.
There was only one Blakeney baptism for a James Blakeney b. 2.6.1782
Parent's names Henry Blakeney & Honora Heas
There was 29 Dudley baptisms but no matching parents of Blakeney/Dudley.
I went back through the Quaker records again and found quite a few references to a Guilford Dudley ( you mentioned you had Guilford in your ancestors).
Cork Quaker marriage - 18.4.1811 Thomas Wright son of Wm & Mary to
Mary Dudley dau of Guilford and Mary married at Cork.
birth 12.8.1791 Mary Dudley dau of Guilford & Mary
A few extra deaths in addition to the list I gave you already -
Cork Quaker Deaths
27.07.1805 Guilford Dudley husband of Mary
22.01.1812 Susanna Dudley aged 45 & a half years
12.04.1818 Hannah Dudley aged 14 years of Blackrock Co Cork
5.2.1824 Mary aged 70 wife of Guilford
8.4.1827 William Dudley aged 18 years
Hope that's some help to you.
Mary
Celtic Liberty
-
The fact that the PRO is mentioned and also just a Diocese rather than a parish, would make me think that the source of the Dudley/Blakeny entry relates to some kind of marriage license index, rather than a primary source such as a parish register. Any marriage license indexes I've seen follow the same type of format - year (no month or day), names and diocese.
The comment about lacking RC marriages would back this up, as most licenses related to Church of Ireland marriages.
Shane
-
Hi Mary,
I can't say a big enough thank you for that - I really mean it when I say that I am humbled by all that you (and the other Rootschatters) have done for me. I've been after this marriage for years; I am totally obsessed by my family history - I cannot really put into words what it means to me. I was desperate to see if there was any more info in Casey and was very frustrated by not being able to get to a library with a copy of Casey in it. Thanks to you though, I can now rest easy on that score. Your exceptional kindness has also given me info that I just would not have been able to get - I am particularly interested in Guilford and Mary - I'm sure that they are 'mine' but can't work out exactly how. The last few days have really turned around what (I thought!) I knew - it really demonstrates what a wonderful thing Rootschat and Rootschatters are!
Thanking you once more,
Chris
-
+ 1 for what Shane says above. I thought in an earlier post someone had said they married in Skibbereen but think it is that they were both born there. There are C of I marriages for civil parish of Abbeystrewry back to 1785; Creagh from 1845.
-
Hi Shane,
Many thanks for that - very interesting and very relevant. It was kind of you to let me know. Please, does anyone know if there is any more info to be had re this marriage license index; I'd be very grateful for any help/advice.
Thanks,
Chris
-
These marriage license indexes dont give any further details, and I dont believe any of the actual licenses survive. Many of these entries relate to marriage records which no longer survive - probably a stroke of luck that this index survived if it was stored in the PRO during 1922.
The Church of Ireland Diocese of Cork & Ross would have included parts of the city, and most of the county to the west and south of the city. The same area as covered by the RC records on the IrishGenealogy website.
If there is an record of the marriage in a church register, it probably will not give very much additional details - likely just the date, names and not much else.
Shane
-
Hi Sonas and Shane,
Thanks again for your latest posts, which as usual, are full of really great info/advice - I am very grateful. It seems to me that I now need to start researching C of I records, particularly those for Abbeystrewry - I just hope that they will be available online!
Thanks again,
Chris
-
Hi again,
I came across a reference to an Ellis Dudley as a constable in the
Royal Irish Constabulary appointed in Bandon in 1767
on site
http://www.bandon-genealogy.com/Bandon%20Constables%20in%201767.htm
As Ellis Dudley is such a unique name it is possible that this could be
your Ellis' father. Also the fact that the children were born in different
places would tie in with a father being moved around due to his occupation.
Just another avenue to consider!
Mary
Celtic liberty
-
Hi Mary,
That is truly awesome! Thank you so much - I'm delighted to have that!
Chris
-
You are welcome, I just think it looks like it could be a good connection!!
mary
Celtic Liberty
-
There is an Ellis Dudley of Skibereen who attended a meeting in the West riding of County Cork. the ratepayers were agitating for the county to be divided into separate East and West Cork. This was reported on 8 March 1843 in the Cork Examiner. I mention it because you believed that your Ellis Dudley had migrated by then.
Tricia
-
Hi Tricia,
Firstly can I just say how extraordinarily kind it was of you to post this fascinating info for me. I am very grateful and delighted to have it!
I know that my Ellis and his family certainly had migrated by 1843 and suspect that this Ellis is a relative. It's been a while since I looked at my Cork ancestry, but I was told a while ago that the C of I church records were going to be made available online. Please, does anyone know any more on this?
Thanks again,
Chris