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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: chrismar on Friday 27 May 11 00:52 BST (UK)
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I would appreciate some help in deciphering this message on the bible of Elizabeth Martha Cummins born 1842. I originally thought the Aunt's name was Sarah, but the photo was enlarged, the last letter looks like a T. I wonder if the name is a surname, as the Elizabeth is described as Miss. E Cummins. This aunt would probably never had seen her niece, who lived in Port Macquaire Australia, and Wanganui New Zealand, so there would be no close familiarity between the two. Elizabeth's mother was Agnes Dick, and this surname does not work. Thank you .
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Could it possibly be Janet?
vv.
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Is this the elusive word ?, could be the flourish making it a "t" is more a blemish (don't know the correct terms, sorry), but the capital letter is an interesting shape .... not sure which letter it is...
Edit to add .... comparing with the "t" at the end of the word "Aunt" .... I don't think Aunt's name ended with a "t".
Cheers, JM
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I thought Janet (or Jannet/Jennet) before I read the replies.
Also I see there is a Scottish connection - this seems to have been a popular forename in Scotland. ;)
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Okay, we can eliminate some letters for the Capitalised letter after Aunt, just by looking at the image and also on their usual 19th C shape.
For Example, it is NOT a Q (often looked like the number "2")
A, Aunt
D, December,
E Edinburgh
M Miss
T to
F from
C and H also from image
It's not likely to be B, G, K, L, N, O, P, R, U, V, W, X,
Leaving I, J, S, Y and Z as possible options
Then look at the letters after the capitalised one ....
Hope this helps
Cheers, JM
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Last letter is unlikely to be "h" .... compare to last letter of "h" in Edinburgh on line below (so unlikely to be Sarah)
Cheers, JM
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Also, the "t" in Aunt is formed differently from the last letter of elusive word ....
Sorry, have no idea what it could be .... Israel comes to mind, but that Capitalised letter doesn't seem to be "I"
Cheers, JM
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So Elizbeth Cummins b 1842 had an Aunt called (indecipherable forename).
There are only a couple of possibilities for an Aunt's surname - her mother's sister or her father's sister. So just checking that are we looking for a surname Cummins or Dick? What is the context of 'Edinburgh' and then 'Dec 17th 1853'?
Of course the Aunt may have married so has a different surname ....
It's hard to get the gist of the relationship and dates with only that small image snippet. :) Can you post the whole image. I don't think there would be a problem doing this as it's your personal property so no copyright issues.
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Like Ruskie, I considered a double 'n', but there aren't enough penstrokes,
so single 'n'.
Also I like the final 't'. This is not a writer who can make letters look exactly the
same every time.
The first letter is much like the 'f' in 'from' except the tail has a pronounced curl.
vv.
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You're right vv.
If you look at copperplate 'F' 'I' and 'J' they are formed in a similar way. The letter does look like an 'I' as there is no 'tail' to the letter, as you'd normally expect with a 'J'. However I believe that the 'I' and 'J' are often confused as they look so similar.
I still think it's a 'J'. If we get further details from chrismar, we may be able to track the Aunt down in bmd's, census etc.
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I think it is Jannet with two n's which was quite a common
spelling in Scotland..........
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I like all the suggestions !
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Could it possibly be Janet?
vv.
Janet, as stated by v.v. in the first reply. Which was then agreed on by Ruskie.
:)
Pels.
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I am afraid this is all the inscription I have. We found it in the front of an old family bible. The rest of this story is a bit wordy, but here are all the clues I have followed, with no luck.
The family story is Agnes Dick born 1815 Bathgate Scotland , the daughter of Elizabeth Agnes Hay and Thomas Dick a writer for the Signet(legal issues) left Scotland with her brother John McGowan Dick and Sister Margaret, along with Margaret's husband James Hamilton. (None of these names match the unknown Aunt's name). Agnes married John Cummins, whose parents according to his death certificate were Colonel John Cummins and Sarah McBeth and supposedly born in Aberdeen in 1808.( I can not track his family down, I had hoped the Aunt's name may have been a clue). Agnes married JohnCummins in 1841 in New Zealand and their first child was Elizabeth Martha Cummins in 1842, born in Tonga.The names of Elizabeth Martha's sister were Roberta , Nancy, Sarah and Margaret- no help with these names. The only thing I can add , which is probably of little help is Margaret Hamilton's husband James died in New Zealand in 1842. Margaret returned to Scotland with her daughters,Eliza and Ann Scrivener- the eldest was eventually to inherit and become Hamilton/Stevenson of Fairholm. I could find no evidence that Margaret remarried.
That is all the names I could find to date and none seem to fit, but it is interesting that in 1853 ,Elizabeth Ann Cummin's had an Aunt that could write and could afford to send her a small New Testament(Bible) from Scotland or pay some one to write the note..
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Well, my first thought when I saw the "secret word" was Berret or Berrnet.
And I am convinced the last letter is a "t".
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So the entire incription reads:
To
Miss E Cumming
From
Her Aunt 'Janet'
Edinburgh
Dec 17th 1853
Do you know the significance of the date? I don't think it would be that unusual for someone in 1853 to be able to write - you imply that the family were well to do.
Later when I have a bit more time to concentrate, I will have a closer look at the relationships within the family and see if I can spot anything. ;) Janet may even have been a great aunt or aunt by marriage, so you might need to dig deeper ....
In your searches have you also looked for the surname Cummings as per the inscription, rather than Cummins?
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Hi
Jennet
There are 500+ of that first name on the 1851 census.
Some in Edinburgh.
Ray
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Thanks I appreciate all the help. I do not think the Cummins or Dick family were wealthy. I think the name Janet is close, but I have not found any Aunt Janet's yet.
I wonder about Cummins spelt with a "g", this might mean the Aunt came from the Dick side.
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I think you need to be flexible regarding the surname at that time - Cummins/Cummings are likely the same family, everything else being equal of course. ;) Just different interpretations ...
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You say that according to John's d/c his parents are Col John Cummins and Sarah McBeth. Do you have John's marriage to Agnes to confirm these parent's names?
When did John Cummins go to NZ? Did he travel alone or with other family members?
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Also, the "t" in Aunt is formed differently from the last letter of elusive word ....
Sorry, have no idea what it could be .... Israel comes to mind, but that Capitalised letter doesn't seem to be "I"
Cheers, JM
I read this as Israel on first glance too. The initial letter looks like I and the last letter could be l or t.
Are we assuming this is the aunt's first name or surname? My mother referred to her father's sister as Aunt Craigen (her married surname) not Aunt Caroline - though this was 60 + years later than the subject inscription, that she knew her. So Israel could be her surname? Would this fit?
Dawn M
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The only other name I could 'see' there was Isabel but I admit it would have to be a very stunted letter b..........
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Compare the 't' of Aunt with the last letter of the name. They are the same, but the nib was more loaded with ink in the 't' of Aunt.
If you look carefully you can see the same flourish crossing the 't' in the name, though it is feinter and faded. The letter definitely is 'crossed' so not an 'l'.
I think we need to consider the amount of ink in the nib when considering the formation of the letters in this dedication.
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Thanks again for all this help. Apparently John Cummins was a trader and was on a ship that was sailing the South Pacific ,trading with the islanders, John Cummins and Agnes Dick were married in the Bay of Islands in New Zealand in 9 Sept 1841, the only proof I can find of the marriage is the annoucement in the Caledonia Mercury Saturday 24 April 1842.
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Thanks again for all this help. Apparently John Cummins was a trader and was on a ship that was sailing the South Pacific ,trading with the islanders, John Cummins and Agnes Dick were married in the Bay of Islands in New Zealand in 9 Sept 1841, the only proof I can find of the marriage is the annoucement in the Caledonia Mercury Saturday 24 April 1842.
I wonder if may be worth asking on the NZ board if they know where to find a certificate for this marriage? They're a very knowledgable and helpful bunch over there. ;)
I did have a look at SP last night but couldn't find a Cummin*/ McBe*th marriage in Scotland. Of course they may have married elsewhere, but as you say that son John is thought to have been born 1808 in Aberdeenshire, then this would be the obvious first place to look. (I'm thinking that Aunt 'Janet' may have come from this side of the family, so trying to track them down as you mention you have been unable to find them.)
The reason I asked about the marriage certificate to confirm parent's names is that I've encountered several cases where Australian death certificates give the wrong parent's (usually mother's) name.
This post almost needs to be split between Scotland and NZ. You can post for help on both of these boards, but provide links to all related threads to save duplication of effort by any rootchatters willing to help.
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Ithink have found the writer of the inscription. This is not definite, but it makes sense. Thomas Dick's Parents were John Dick and Margaret McGowan.He also had a number of siblings, one of whom did not marry, she was Jean Dick born 1792 Linlithgow. Margaret McGowan parent's were Thomas McGowan and Jean Tait.
In the 1851 census-There is a Jean Dick 1793 Born in Linlithgow working as a housekeeper for her Aunt, Janet Tate born 1765.Address 24 High Street Linlithgow. Janet is listed as an annuitant-house proper
In 1856 39 High Street Linlithgow Janet Tate a widow, aged 91 died. Her parents are listed as Thomas McGowan and Jean Tait.
Just to note that in the 1861 census Jean Dick is listed as living in 66 High Street and is Proprietor of Houses.
My best bet for Janet is Great Aunt Janet Tate She would know the story of Elizabeth Martha Cummins and how she was the first European child born in Tonga, from her niece Jean Dick and could have sent the bible, with one of Elizabeth's uncles, who went to live in Australia.
Thank you everyone, I would never had seen Janet or Jennet in the inscription, if you had not pointed it out. Chris
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Hi
If Janet Tate/Tait was a lady of property, she left a will?
Maybe if there is then any names on there may provide more ..... ?
Ray
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That seems to make sense chrismar.
Jean/Janet were interchangeable names in Scotland so you may need to be flexible, and never be completely sure which Aunt gave Elizabeth the bible. :-\
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But what a treasure for Miss E Cumming, and of course the testament has survived for more than 150 years, so it has been looked after by several later generations...
Cheers, JM