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Research in Other Countries => Immigrants & Emigrants - General => Topic started by: Nanny with Rosie on Monday 06 June 11 09:44 BST (UK)
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Good morning - I am hoping someone can help me break down 'the wall' with this ancestor of mine.
Blaise Louis HENOCQ was born in Parish c.1788 came to England and married Elizabeth SMITH on 16 June 1811. They had three children Joseph b.1812, Louisa b.1810 and Ann b.1814 (all London).
I believe Blaise was a tailor. Why did he come to England - was he coming over with a Client?
He returned to France where he died 06 March 1822 at 3 Rue de Doyenne in Paris. His wife Elizabeth remained in England and died at 17 Trafalgar Grove Greenwich London.
I am hoping that Blaise had siblings that remained in France who had details of his early life and possibly of his parents/grandparents. Also do I have any distant relatives?
Unfortunately I cannot speak French and would need any answers in English, if possible.
Many thanks in anticipation of a response.
NANNY WITH ROSIE
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Rue du Doyenné was a street in Paris, part of the area that disappeared in the expansion of the Louvre:
http://www.balzacsparis.ucr.edu/visit/tuileries.html
Judging by Google Books the area was rather (in)famous!
A couple of hurdles: early bmds in Paris are spotty because the Hôtel de Ville was set on fire in early 1871.
So his civil death record, which might have listed his parents, may not survive.
His birth would be in church records but it's a question of which church!
Pretty much no French genealogy sites have any English, but there is a good word list here:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/search/rg/guide/WLFrench.asp
This is the Paris archives site:
http://canadp-archivesenligne.paris.fr/
They have the indexes to the "reconstructed" records, and I think eventually they will put up the reconstructed records themselves (they have said they will, but I've not seen any timeline). The indexes just give name, date, and arrondissement, and are alphabetical by surname most-of-the-time. Only about a third of events have been recovered.
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Thank you for taking the time to response with all that info. I certainly gives me something to work on - for a long time I did not know where to look.
NANNY WITH ROSIE
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Hello Nanny,
Our friend Jude is a great-great-great-great-granddaughter of Blaise Henocq through his daughter Ann, who married Samuel Finch Houghton. We have no other information about Blaise.
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Hello - some many years ago I was in correspondence with a member of the Houghton family - a vicar if I remember correctly and he had done quite a lot of research on that family name and as a consequence came across the Henocq link.
Ann was the daughter of Blaise Louis and his wife Elizabeth Smith. Do you want to know more or do you have that already?
NANNY WITH ROSIE
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We knew about Blaise's marriage to Elizabeth Smith and also that Blaise was born and died in Paris whereas Elizabeth died in England (London). Oh, and that Blaise had been a tailor. Do you know whether he had his own busioness or did he work for someone else?
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Morning - you seem to have got as much info I have - I am curious as to why he came to England in the first place, married here and then return to Paris sometime where he died.
Not being a french speaker I am unable to persue an investigation into the Paris link as recommended by a previous Rootschatter. Did he come over with a client escaping the French Revolution or from Napoleon - questions without answers.
NANNY WITH ROSIE
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You could go into the suggested website, copy out all French text, put it into a translation tool (or even Word), and come up with some English text that might give you an unexpected clue or scrap of information :)
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Afternoon - you sound as if you know your way round the computer with suggestions like that. Must admit it is something I didn't know you could do.
I am still curious as to why and when he came to England and the fact he returned to France leaving a wife and children. He did die relatively young, maybe he had intended to return. We shall never know!
NANNY WITH ROSIE
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Hi
Blaise Louis was my great, great, great, grandfather through the line of his son Joseph. Blaise married Elizabeth Smith in June 1811 at Christ church in Southwark. He was born in Paris, and like many huguenots and the time may have left France due to religious persecution.
He was a tailor and they must have lived most of this time in London as his children Joseph, Louisa and Anne were were born in Marylebone and Westminster. Joseph became a cabinet maker and Louisa was a dressmaker. Anne became a licensee when she married Samuel finch Houghton.
Blaise returned to Paris and died 6th March 1822. I have an authentic copy of his death certificate produced in 1872. An extract follows.
On march 26th 1822 at 1.30am the death of Blaise Louis HENOCQ, born in Paris, a Tailor, died aged 35 years on this dayat 1 o clock in the morning at Doyenne street No 3. Married to Elizabeth Smith. Noted by us Frederic Pierre baron Lecordier, mayor of the first borough of Paris. Officer of the legion of Honour, Knight of the order of St.Michael. On the declaration of the gentlemen Francois Gallet, valet of the chamber.
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Hi Steve-paris - an interesting pseudonym!
My maiden name was Henocq and have been researching the tree since the 1980's so the internet has been a great boon.
I always thought Blaise Louis might have been a huguenot who left France due to persecution, however looking at the date of the marriage it would probably have been due to Napoleon. I have been hoping to find out why he returned to Paris where he died relatively young - another Rootschatter suggested he might have lived there with the family, who then return to England upon his death but this avenue has still to be researched.
You mention you are a descendant of Blaise Louis/Joseph but not where your branch 'hangs on'. My father was William Joseph youngest son of George Frederick Henocq & Harriet Lane.
Look forward to hearing from you
NANNY WITH ROSIE
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Hi, I have been thinking about your question of why Blaise went back to France. As there was no refe
rence in his death certificate to why he died so young I assume he must have gone back for personnel reasons. Maybe other family members were Ill. The other thought was that as it was only a couple of years since the war with France ended, could it have been some sort of business opportunity.
When his children were born his family address was Dartmouth row in london, this is an area in blackheath. This was not far from Greenwich where his wife Elizabeth died some years later.
At that time a tailor was a good profession to have, and I read that wages were increasing due to strong union involvement.
My own line is Blaise/Joseph/Richard Henry/Vivien william/Victor Kenneth/
regards steve-paris
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Nice to hear from you again Steve - thank you for the info of Dartmouth Row - this I didn't know.
Tailoring would appear to be in the genes as two aunts were needlewomen one tailoring and one high class dressmaking. My mother was also a tailoress and I remember visiting the workshops in Soho - the conditions were usually cramped, steamy and the air full of wool fibres, marking chalk, etc etc - maybe he fell victim to his work conditions !!
Have you been able to trace all males from Blaise down to not only yours and mine branches??
NANNY WITH ROSIE
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Hello Steve,
> I have an authentic copy of his death certificate produced in 1872.
I'm Blaise Louis Henocq's great x 4 grandson and I'd be very interesting in having a digital copy of this. Any chance you could oblige, please?
Thanks,
Bryan
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Hi Bryan - I am also very interested in Blaise Louis Henocq and would appreciate sight of the authentic birth certificate if at all possible. I have been researching this side of my tree for many many years but sadly cannot get back any further than Blaise.
Have you been able to find out why he came to England, married there and then returned by the time of his death. His widow died in Greenwich and is interred there?
Regards
NANNY WITH ROSIE
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Hi,
As Steve hasn't posted here recently I've written to him asking for an electronic copy of the birth certificate. I've managed to get one generation further back than Blaise to his parents, Antoine and Constance. I have an electronic copy of his father's death certificate which someone posted on Ancestry.
I have no idea why he came to England, but given that the Revolution occurred in 1789 I think there may have been very good reasons! Many Huguenots left France after revocation of the Edict of Nantes which caused an exodus of Protestants. Many of them came to London and he may have had relations already there, or at the very least might have had a community that he could have become part of. I don't know how much of a community there would have been, though, as the Revocation was in 1685. This was about 100 years before he was born, so any refugees would have had quite some time to become assimilated. My granny, a Henocq, was born in 1897, less than 100 years after Blaise came, and she certainly wasn't part of any French community.
All in all he is quite a sketchy character.
* He was born about 1778 or 1788 (depending on who you believe) in Paris.
* He married Elizabeth Smith on June 16 1811 at Christ Church in Southwark. I have electronic copies of the Banns and the marriage certificate. He was a tailor.
* He had three children with Elizabeth. I don't have their birth certificates.
* All three were baptised at St Margarets, Westminster on the same day, October 26 1819. I do have an electronic copy of the baptismal record which I got from the Westminster Archives a couple of weeks ago.
* On the baptismal record the dates of birth of the three children are given:
Louisa: May 31 1810
Joseph: April 25 1812
Anne: March 22 1814
His occupation was 'Tayler' and he was living in Dartmouth Row.
* On March 20 1820 his father Antoine died in Paris. I have a copy of the death certificate. He was a wine merchant and was 82. Note that this does not correspond with the date of birth everyone has for him which is 'about 1751', which would have made him 69 years old.
* Two years later Blaise Antoine died on March 26 1822 at 3 Rue du Doyenné, Paris.
And that is as much as I can find about him. A couple of things are notable from what little we have.
* Louisa, the first child, was born in 1810 but Blaise and Elizabeth didn't marry until 1811. I would guess that might have caused a bit of an upset!
* All three children were baptised as a job lot and five months later his father died in Paris. Could it be that his father was ill and the baptism was part of Blaise's getting his affairs in order before going back to deal with family business? I have no idea, but it's certainly possible, don't you think?
I seem to have managed to trace most of his descendants in the UK, at least those that are Henocqs. I haven't taken much interest so far in the branches formed when the various daughters married. As I now live in France I'll have a go at seeing what more I can find out about his family here. However it's much more difficult than it was in the UK. Many records were destroyed, and although some have been rebuilt from other sources they aren't very accessible. I do live in France (although I'm Irish) but I'm about as far from Paris as it's possible to be whilst remaining in mainland France so it won't be as easy as you might expect or hope!
By the way, Blaise Louis was my great x 4 grandfather and my grandmother was Gladys Amelia Henocq, 1897-1964.
Bryan
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Morning moulesfrites
How lovely to open my emails to find out that with your endeavours you have progressed the Henocq Tree another generation back.
When I first started researching in the early 1980's the local Church of Latterday Saints allowed access to the records they had amassed on microfische and I found Henocqs listed at The French Huguenot Church in Threadneedle Street London - sadly it is no longer there but it gave me the idea of the Huguenot link. Since then I wondered whether Blaise travelled to England as a tailor to a wealthy person trying to escape the Revolution!! It is interesting that Blaise married (presumably) a CofE and had their children baptised in the CofE church of St Margaret's Westminster (close to the Houses of Parliament).
Please keep me in the loop if you find out anything more, and I am more than happy to fill you in 'if' you have any empty branches on the tree.
Regards
NANNY WITH ROSIE
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Morning Nanny,
Well I think I've gone a generation back! The problem always is getting more than one source so you can gauge how dependable the information is. So what I've got is evidence from various family trees on Ancestry that Blaise's father was Antoine and he married Louise Constance Belot; I also have the death certificate for Antoine Henocq, married to Louise Constance Belot. What I don't have is a record that actually links Antoine with Blaise Louis.
I'll keep you posted with anything else I find out. There are a couple of things I'd like to fill in, please.
It's interesting to note that Elizabeth Henocq is said to have died at 17 Trafalgar Grove, but once again I can find no proof of that. It's mentioned in several trees on Ancestry but not one of them links to any supporting evidence. Have you got that?
The other is Bertram Hugh Griffiths Henocq born 1881. There are two census records of him living in New Windsor with his parents Richard Henry Henocq and Amelia, when they were licensees of the Merry Wives of Windsor, but after that there is nothing to be found.
Thanks,
Bryan
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Hello again
I too have drawn a blank with Bertrum Hugh Griffiths Henocq after the 1891 census. I have tried CWG thinking he might have died during the Great War, looked on FreeBMD but can only find his birth (but I know that is not complete). Incidently his mother's maiden name was Griffiths which is used several times in the names of their children.
I have also checked to see if by chance he had emigrated before the 1901 census but no joy there either. ???
NANNY WITH ROSIE
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Hello,
I wonder how Bertram managed to slip between the cracks. I notice that you call him Bertrum. That's something I've come across too, but as far as I can tell it's an error that has been propagated. On the 1881 birth record he appears as:
'Henocq, Bertram Hugh G'.
The Bertrum version appears in Colin Barnes family tree, maybe that's where it came from. Maybe he really was Bertrum and the record is wrong! It wouldn't be the first time.
It's very possible that he exists in the records but it has been mistranscribed so he doesn't appear in the index. That happens a lot.
I came across this today: a report of Joseph Henocq having his hammer stolen.
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18430612-name-520&div=t18430612-1789
(Note that this occurred in 1843 and that 1789 is the reference number, not the date!)
Bryan
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Morning - lovely to hear from you again, especially with that link.
Bertrum/Bertram I could have got this from Colin (my second cousin) his g/parents being Henry & Louise, I started the tree in the 1980's when obtaining info was very difficult and costly buying the certificates.
I wonder whether he changed his name as I know as a child always having to spell my surname was an absolute pain!
As you can see I am a long-time addict of geneology!!
NANNY WITH ROSIE
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Hi Bryan and everybody else - Blaise is also my 4x Great Grandfather. My line is Blaise, Joseph, Joseph James, Sydney Joseph and then Sydney's daughter Kathleen (Kate) who was my maternal Grandmother. I had been doing a lot of research on my own but only followed the direct line as I am also researching my father's line at the same time. Lovely to meet all you long-lost cousins :)
Jools
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Hello Jools,
Nice to meet you too. I have quite an extensive tree on ancestry.co.uk now. Have you been there yet? I seem to have got about as far as I can with this, short of a trip to Paris. If you can add any more info that would be great.
Best wishes,
Bryan
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Hi Jools, Bryan, i have now joined, i am still looking for things to do with the Henocqs, hopefully will visit the church where the Baptisms took place, also visit Dartmouth Row. Is Nanny with Rosie still searching it would be good if she got in touch. Regards Ruth
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I believe Anthoine Henocq was born in 1737 as hi death certificate was 1820 saying he was 83, can anyone give me anymore info on this Regards Ruth
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hi my name is Carol Edwards nee Houghton & Antoine Henocq who married Louise Constance Bellott was my GGGG Grand Parents ...their son Blaise Louis Henocq was my GGG Grand father & his daughter Ann Gertrude Henocq who married Samuel Finch Houghton was my GG Grand parents..
I have been given a paper where a person named Steve-Paris was in contact with some one named Nanny with Rosie, who I have tried to find, re Blaise, & he mentions in this that he has a copy of the death certificate for Blaise do you also have a copy or any other info that I could use also do you know who the names of Antoine's parents thank you so much for your time Carol
( after posting this I then found the thread re these messages 0 I put it down to my age I call it a FUDGE MOMENT XX to all us long lost kin
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Hello - nice to hear from a distant relative.
Your question about Anthoine's (1751-1820) parents - his father was Jacques and mother Francoise LOCQUET (I think as it is very difficult to find out information due to documents being burned probably due to the French Revolution - not sure on that fact). Anthoine's wife was Louise Constance Bellot who's parents were Guillame Pierre Blot and Marie Constance Lamart.
Not been able to establish anything further back that that. Anything you find, please let me know.
Hope you enjoy hunting out the information on the tree, I started way back in 1980 when I had to visit St Catherine's House, etc and wrote to every Henocq in the country's phone book - there were 13 listed which included my mother.
Happy hunting.
NANNY WITH ROSIE
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thank you Rose brilliant post you have given me another branch to add to my tree will keep in toucn x Carol
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Hi Carol and welcome to RootsChat...when you have made one more post you can then exchange personal details through the Personal Messaging system...you do this by using the person icon under the posters name on the left of the screen.
Carol also with husband Colin ;D ;D ;D
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Hi thank you for the warm welcome to this slightly addicted site xx Carol
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Hi Bryan and everybody else - Blaise is also my 4x Great Grandfather. My line is Blaise, Joseph, Joseph James, Sydney Joseph and then Sydney's daughter Kathleen (Kate) who was my maternal Grandmother. I had been doing a lot of research on my own but only followed the direct line as I am also researching my father's line at the same time. Lovely to meet all you long-lost cousins :)
Jools
Hello Jools wanted you to know that I am from the same line as you and I'm not 100 percent on this but I think my great grandfather Edwood (Ted) was your grandmother Kate's brother. My grandfather William used to talk about an aunt Kate. Not sure if it's the same one but I do know that my line is also Blaise Joseph Joseph James Sydney then Edward his son William then my dad and then me. Small world! If this is true then you are my dad's second cousin