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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Stirlingshire => Topic started by: Albanwraig on Thursday 09 June 11 23:16 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I am trying to find out whether the John Gardner who died in Stirling Lunatic Asylum on 30 May 1880 is the husband of Ann Gaff [1821 - 1893]. On the death certificate there is no mention of parents, wife's name, or marital status. The age is given as 60.
Although the eldest child, Janet was born in New Monklands [census] in 1844, in the censuses of 1851, 1861, 1871, and 1881 the family is in Slamannan.
John is a master baker, employer in 1851 and 1861 censuses.
By 1871 Ann is head of the family, a grocer, with two of their sons bakers.
Ann's death certificate of 1893 says that she is "married to John Gardner" and the informant is their son James. The details as to parentage are "correct".
I cannot find John in any census after 1861. Would the inmates of the Asylum be individually registered in a census, or would initials only be used?
Would the Asylum record details about John on his admission?
Are the records of the Asylum available?
Thank you for your time
Helenor
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I have that registration as well because I think it is the same person but it is LARBERT HE DIED IN . It was one of Stirling districts Asylums.Not actually Stirling Asylum as it statesat to topofthe registration
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Bellsdyke Hospital (originally called Stirling District Lunacy Asylum) was set up by Stirling District Lunacy Board in September 1865 and the first patients arrived in June 1869. The Stirling District Lunacy Board was formed in 1848 and an Act of Parliament in 1858 enabled district asylums to be built and maintained by county authorities. Bellsdyke Estate was purchased from Dundas of Carronhall in 1865 in order to build the hospital. In the 1930s the hospital came under the jurisdiction of Stirling District Mental Hospital Joint Committee. In 1960 following the Mental Health (Scotland) Act the name Bellsdyke Hospital was adopted. The original buildings were extended with additions in 1882, 1893, 1896, 1907, 1915 and the 1960s. [From http://www.scan.org.uk/catalogue/].
The catalogue does not make any reference to patients' records, but the plans and a magazine are held by Falkirk Council. You could try asking them if there are any surviving records of patients. www.falkirk.gov.uk/archives
Yes, an asylum would normally have recorded all these details about John on his admission. Usually such records are extremely informative. However the absence of such information suggests that they omitted to do so, or that if they did, whoever registered the death could not access it.
That, plus the fact that Ann's death certificate describes her as 'married to' rather than 'widow of' John Gardner would make me hesitate to assume that this John is her husband.
I would try to take a look at other deaths in the asylum in 1880, and see if they have the full information about the people concerned. If they don't then the omission can probably be ascribed to poor record-keeping. If, on the other hand, the full details appear for most or all of the other deaths, that would suggest to me that they genuinely didn't know who this John Gardner was, in which case he is probably not Ann's husband.
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Thanks for the info you sent it is great.The certificate I have, I have not used because as you say there is still doubt as to who this person is. On the census for 1881 Ann is down as a widow.But unable tofind 1891 census.
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Try contacting davy.campbell
Here is a post from him I remember from Aug 13
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=657458.msg5033191#msg5033191
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Hello All,
As no one had responded to my original post in 2011 I did not add what I had found out.
I got in touch with the Stirling Archives: this is the answer I got:
The surviving records of Stirling District Asylum, situated at Larbert are held by Forth Valley health Board. The gentleman you need to speak to regarding this is a Mr Tom Selbach. A link to their website is given below: -
http://www.nhsforthvalley.com/home/Contact/Contact.html
{I'm afraid that I did not manage to get through on this link and just left it. - Perhaps one of you might have more luck - or expertise!}
It may be worthwhile looking in the Parochial Board records for the Parish of Slamannan to see if you can find a record of John Gardner's referral to the asylum. As Slamannan is now situated in the Falkirk Council area, any surviving records for the Parish should be with Falkirk Council Archives. A link to their website is given below: -
http://www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/community/cultural_services/museums/archives/archive.aspx
I then got in touch with Falkirk Archives and got:
Thank you for your email. Unfortunately we don’t hold any records of the Stirling Lunatic Asylum ( Bellsdyke Hospital ) in the Archives. All surviving records are held by NHS Forth Valley . You can see our factsheet containing some information about where to find mental health records (along with the relevant address for NHS Forth Valley ) at the following link:
http://www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/community/cultural_services/museums/archives/pdf/medical_records_for_family_history.pdf
You can see from the factsheet that some records are also held at the National Archives of Scotland.
You mention in your email that the family was in Slamannan between 1851 and 1881 (at least). We do have some records for Slamannan Parish Church and Slamannan Free Church. You can see what we have at this link:
http://www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/community/cultural_services/museums/archives/finding_aids/churches.aspx
and then clicking on the name of the relevant church.
I think that Kirk Session records are unlikely to be helpful, as they only tend to mention individuals if they’ve committed some misdemeanour. The Communion Rolls might be more useful, as they contain the names of individuals who took communion in the church.
For example, I took a quick look at the Slamannan Parish Church Communion Roll for 1867-1877 (catalogue number CH2/331/17), and I found a number of Gardners listed in it (but no-one under the name of Gaff). These Gardners generally seem to be blacksmiths and farmers, so they’re probably not the ones you’re interested in, but hopefully the pages will give you an idea of what the records look like. I haven’t looked in detail through all the communion rolls.
Unfortunately, I am not likely to get to either Falkirk or Edinburgh: but if anyone else can do so, would you please let me know if you find anything?
Good Luck
Helenor Jones
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Me again!
I am still wondering how to access the Asylum in the census and whether anyone knows if the inmates were recorded by initials or by name?
Helenor Jones
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Hi Helenor :)
You have been at this a while...!
What did the children of John and Ann (Gaff) say regarding their father when they married regarding their father? Alive or deceased?
See that second born son John had a memorial stone done for his mother's death...with his immediate family commemorated on it also.
Monica
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The records of Stirling District Asylum (including admissions registers and patients' case books) are now held by Stirling University Archives and can be consulted by appointment. You should contact the University Archivist in the first instance at <archives@stir.ac.uk>
Margow
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Hi Monica,
The children:
Janet b1844; married James Watson 1866
William b 1846 - zero after 1861 census
John b 1848; married Ann Baird 1871
James b 1851; married Alison Hailston 1896
Ann b 1853; married James Baxter 1872
Henry b 1856, only 1861 census
Mary b 1859, only 1861 and 1871 censuses
Helen Gaff b 1862; married John Connell 1881
In none of the marriages is either parent noted as deceased, although James was the person who gave the details for his mother's death certificate in 1893!!
I have the details of the tombstones both for James and John Gaff if you wish them.
:)Thank you for the idea - I had forgotten to check the MCs -- :-[
My interest is on the Gaff side of the family.
Helenor
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Hi Margow,
Thanks I'll give that a go :)
Helenor
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HI Henry Gardner married on 22 February 1889 in Ediburgh to Ann Carse and he died 4 June 1930 in Edinburgh
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I have been having another go at this.
First I asked Scotlands People how to access the censuses for the asylum as I would have liked to have gone through the censuses to see if John Gardner was there. However, the answer I got was to look up the name as per normal. Somehow I had got it in my head that the inmates were listed by initials only.
Secondly I inquired at Stirling University Archives and, got a good reply which I will copy:
I have checked the records of Stirling District Asylym and found an entry in an admission register for the John Gardner who died in the asylum on 30 May 1880. It doesn’t appear that the hospital had much information about the patient, who was transferred from Govan Poorhouse in Glasgow (see the attached transcription of the entry). However both his age and the ‘Parish to which chargeable’ suggest it may be the same John Gardner as you are researching. The parish is recorded as Muiravonside which is close to Slamannan, where he was recorded as residing in the 1861 and 1871 census.
Unfortunately there are no case books present for the period when John was a patient (they may have provided further information).
However the attachment would seem to suggest that this is not the John Gardner I am looking for.
I have attached the attachment [I hope] which shows that the inmate John Gardner had been a Sawyer.
The University Archivist also said:
If it is the same John Gardner he may have fallen on hard times and ended up in Govan Poorhouse. I would suggest your next step is to contact Glasgow City Archives who hold the records of Govan Poorhouse as part of their Poor Law Archives:
http://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/libraries/the-mitchell-library/archives/collections/poor-law-archives/Pages/default.aspx
The John Gardner I am interested in was born in Torphichan. I would imagine that he would have been a charge on that parish if a need had arisen?
I think I will leave it here for the moment - unless, of course, someone has a suggestion.
I perhaps will try the census again,
Helenor
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The John Gardner I am interested in was born in Torphichan. I would imagine that he would have been a charge on that parish if a need had arisen?
Either on the parish of his birth or the parish where he most recently acquired 'settlement', which in his case would have meant that he resided there continuously five years. If he was in Slamannan in both 1851 and 1861, he would almost certainly have acquired 'settlement' in Slamannan.
However that does not mean that he would not have been dealt with somewhere else initially.
Suppose he had moved to Glasgow and shortly afterwards (i.e. not long enough to acquire 'settlement' in Glasgow) become ill or fallen on hard times. He (or someone on his behalf) would have applied to the Glasgow parochial board for 'relief'. The Glasgow Inspector of Poor would have visited him and gathered all relevant information, including his parish(es) of birth and settlement, names of wife and children, ages of children, and the circumstances leading to the application. The Inspector could give temporary relief, which could include sending him to the poorhouse in Govan, and then reported to his Board.
The Glasgow parochial board would then write to the parochial board in his parish of settlement to notify it that one of its paupers was being supported, and to ask that Board to decide how to deal further with him. The other Board could either ask Glasgow to keep him in their poorhouse and agree to pay his costs there, or ask them to send him to their own poorhouse or other appropriate place.
So if I were you I would be falling over myself to see the Glasgow parochial board's records of John Gardner. They should be in the City of Glasgow Archives in the Mitchell Library.
(PS different procedures apply before 1845; until then, paupers were dealt with by the kirk.)
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Hi all,
His wife and children were all present and correct in Slamannan: censuses; marriages; births of children; even burials and monumental inscriptions. Ann Gaff, his wife, was buried with one of the sons and mentioned on the gravestone.
He was a master baker [see initial post] employing three men. Two of his sons continued the business with his wife being a grocer.
The person in the asylum was, as I said, a sawyer.
I will of course try the Poor Law records, but not immediately. It no longer seems quite as high a priority. I am going to have another look at the censuses. As none of the marriage certificates nor Ann's death certificate have him as deceased I may try the statutory deaths again - although there are quite a few John Gardners -- will have to wait to garner a few bawbees before tackling that!
As a previous poster stated 1891 census search draws a blank - so far.
Again this is not my main line. I was hoping [sigh] that someone whose main line it was knew that he had emigrated to Timbuktu !! ;D
Thanks to all
Helenor
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...A Master Baker and a sawyer, both trained skills. As you mention, doesn't sound like the same man :-\
Monica
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My great aunt's father-in-law died in Larbert Lunatic Asylum and the death record is quite interesting. It says he was widowed but doesn't mention his widow's name. It gives no record of his parents, and lists his occupation as farmer although he had been a policeman! The preceding record in the register was another inmate who was listed as 'married to ' and there is just a line where the name would have been. Again the box for the parents' names has no details.
My great aunt's marriage record, her husband's death record and her mother-in-law's death records all have differences, including name changes, which may have been to cover up the fact that their relative was in the asylum.
So, although the above is pointing to two different John Gardners, maybe some details have been changed or overlooked because of the stigma which sadly existed at that time.
Sandy
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You are right to mention this, Sandy. This type of reporting was always open to errors and omissions :-\
Monica
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I had a wonderful experience with the very helpful staff at the University -during my appointment I was able to see (and photograph) all my Great grandmothers case notes and a photograph which I had never seen. Obviously the contents were quite harrowing but fascinating all the same. -a fantastic resource !
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I have Henry Gardner married Ann Carse in 1889 in Edinburgh and he died there in 1930