RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Roy G on Friday 10 June 11 18:40 BST (UK)
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Hi, there. I am doing something I said I would never do, finding a name on the Internet and seeing if it links to the family. The surname of Czettel is however unusual and the lady's origins in Vienna suggests a family tie, so I am keen to find out who her parents were.
The marriage that interests me is that of:
Gertrude Giselle Hermine Czettel of Paris, to Austrian Hubert Ferdinand Charles Herzfelder in Paris on 24 Dec 1935.
Hubert was a wealthy dealer and collector of valuable foreign coins, and between 1937-1964 the couple lived at 77 rue des Saint-Peres, Paris.
They had no children, but from other sources I have gleaned Gertrude was born Vienna 10 Oct 1909, died 7 Aug 1991, and was buried in Salzburg, France. I am hoping her parents' names are on her birth or marriage certificate and knowing those names could help me relate her to a dynasty of Czettels that originated from Budapest.
Roy G
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the name Czettel is to find in Vienna gravesearch with 24 hits, so it´s not unusual :) possible her parents in this list....
http://www.friedhoefewien.at/fhw/ep/programView.do?channelId=-22839&programId=21894&submit=true&submit=SUCHEN&friedhof=&jdb_bis=&jdb_von=&name=Czettel&vorname=
http://www.friedhoefewien.at/
the Herzfelder-name of her husband for me sounds jewish.... ::)
also 4 hits for Herzfelder in Viennas-gravesearch, so maybe he was also from Vienna? ???
http://www.friedhoefewien.at/fhw/ep/programView.do?channelId=-22839&programId=21894&submit=true&submit=SUCHEN&friedhof=&jdb_bis=&jdb_von=&name=Herzfelder&vorname=
the special jewish-cemetery-database for Vienna has some more. so the name can be jewish or not. Czettel there not to find: http://friedhof.ikg-wien.at/search.asp?lang=en
in fact the firstnames of both sounds NOT jewish!
"I have gleaned Gertrude was born Vienna 10 Oct 1909, died 7 Aug 1991, and was buried in Salzburg, France."
there is no Salzburg in France, but in Austria. a state and his samenamed capital has this name:
http://maps.google.at/maps?hl=de&q=Salzburg&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=535l2216l0l8l8l0l3l3l0l210l750l1.2.2&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1024&bih=544&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salzburg
german map Austria: http://www.touristinformation.at/bilder/austria.jpg
english map Austria: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Austria_states_english.png
Tracing your Ancestors in Vienna - Some Guidelines:
http://www.wien.gv.at/english/history/archives/ancestors.html
there is an online-formular, but only in german, so you would need a person who helps filling out. the historical registry-dates of Vienna would be in the same time she was born, so maybe they can find her and it´s free. but i´m not sure if they can look without any adress, but make attempt. possible districts for the last adress for some are 14.Penzing, 19. Döbling and 16.Ottakring seen at gravesearch about cemeteries (Baumgarten, Grinzing and Ottakring). the list can not show for people buried at the central-cemetry Vienna/ Zentralfriedhof Wien which district they came from. so maybe this can be a help to state Penzing, Grinzing and Ottakring as possibilities, so they maybe would look for Gertrude Giselle Hermine Czettel´s birth in their files:
https://www.wien.gv.at/formularserver2/user/formular.aspx?pid=ee400162c3a64438a6604689dedc3c2f&pn=Bd6f3ce0ea6914ceaa6f2e2749948852e
historical registrydates-info in german: http://www.wien.gv.at/amtshelfer/kultur/archiv/forschung/historischemeldeunterlagen.html
Baumgarten (in Penzing): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumgarten,_Vienna
Grinzing (in Döbling) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinzing
Ottakring: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottakring
there are some prominent Czettel of Vienna.
Adolf Zettel - prominent political (democrat) of Vienna. a street in Ottakring is named after him, also a center in 4th district: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Czettel
http://www.dasrotewien.at/czettel-adolf.html
http://www.parlament.gv.at/WWER/PAD_00189/index.shtml
http://maps.google.at/maps?hl=de&q=Adolf-Czettel-Gasse%20Wien&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=4372l11239l0l24l24l0l17l17l0l192l1022l1.6&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1024&bih=544&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
Hans Czettel was also a social-democrat (SPÖ), who later moved to Ternitz in Lower-Austria: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Czettel
http://www.dasrotewien.at/czettel-hans.html
http://geschichte.landesmuseum.net/index.asp?contenturl=http://geschichte.landesmuseum.net/personen/personendetail.asp___id=1295488923
phonebook Austria: http://www.herold.at/en/telefonbuch/
13 hits for Czettel in following austrian states:
* Wien (7)
* Niederösterreich (5)
* Burgenland (1)
http://www.herold.at/telefonbuch/czettel/
7 hits for Czettel in Vienna in following districts.
* Wien 14 - Penzing (4)
* Wien 4 - Wieden (1)
* Wien 3 - Landstrasse (1)
* Wien 6 - Mariahilf (1)
http://www.herold.at/telefonbuch/wien/czettel/
there is a Rudolf Czettel who works with movie-productions. some for me wellknown movie-series of austrian TV to find in his list:
http://www.filmdesigners.at/index.php?spr=4&ctrl=mitglieder&mid=6&bid=1
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0194474/
here at portrait for Wilhelm Alfred Adlmüller, Modedesigner, 1909 - 1989 (born Nürnberg, Germany, buried Vienna) is stated a Ladislaus Czettel who once worked at Vienna Opera. Ladislaus has seen his talent and looked for a work for him when he came Vienna: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ji_Nj8NKUQAJ:www.viennatouristguide.at/Friedhoefe/Zentralfriedhof/Index_33_G/adlmueller.htm+Czettel+Wien&cd=76&hl=de&ct=clnk&gl=at&source=www.google.at
found an Christopher Czettel of Ternitz, possible descendant of Hans Czettel who moved Ternitz: http://christopher-czettel.net/kontakt/impressum/
now think a lot for you to look. ;)
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Firstly, many thanks carinthiangirl.
There is such a lot here to reply to and as senile guys like me are always being told we cant multitask, I have to do it bit by bit. Yes the family names of Czettel and Herzfelder have Jewish origins, but circa 1896, some opted to change their names into something with less Jewish undertones.
First suggested website: Great list, although the timeslot is a bit out for those mid 19th century relatives I know of to fit in. I knew of the politicians (Adolph & Hans born in the 1920s) but unfortunately their descendent, Christopher cannot tell me who their parents were. Primarily my attention has been drawn to Magdelena who I will try to find out more about.
Second two suggested websites: First unfortunately adds nothing, the second I was aware of and has added things in the past, but regrettably only related to other family lines.
Saltsburg correction accepted,. It was a mental slip on my part, but I now wonder if it was Strasburg. I will go back and verify.
The third Google map suggested website is again one I regularly use. I too believe European Family history is lacking if findings are not presented in conjunction with maps.
Thanks for the website which details researching in Vienna. It's one I have not come across before.
The next I certainly would need an interpreter by my side.
I have contacted Christopher in the past, but see the site you gave me also listed Rudi's e'mail. I will now try to contact him.
Lots to do, and thanks again. Roy G
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On the French side, I don't know that you will be able to get a copy of the marriage certificate as you are not a direct relative. Do have you have any contact with their godson who submitted the CRT claim?
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~prohel/names/misc/posner.html
- this site gives her parents as Izidor (Dori?) and a Marguerite of Paris.
Incidentally:gallica.bnf.fr has an old photograph of "77 rue des Saint-Peres"
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Thanks to you both
Re http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~prohel/names/misc/posner.html
- which gives her parents as Izidor (Dori?) and a Marguerite of Paris.
This was a submission to Peter Rohel by me, which I am seeking to verify, for I have one piece of conflicting evidence.
I also meant to add that the Ladislav Czettel of the Vienna Opera House and Folies Bergere in Paris was a half relative (mother of the blood line, but not father). I have his history in considerable detail (from birth to suicide) and find it quite interesting that although famous as a costume and dress designer, and his artwork is widely collected, he has no entry in Wikipedia and none of the other art history websites that mention him have the correct details of his age or parentage. Roy G
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austrian link - it is stated that not many info about him. "Wiener Bühne" writes in November 1929: "some years ago one day he came as a young man about Paris from Budapest to Vienna".
Ladislaus Czettel >>> 12th March 1895, Budapest - 5th March 1949, N.Y.
www.filmarchiv.at/rte/upload/filmhimmel_pdf/fh_008.pdf
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Yes that's the correct birth date (most biographies say 1904) but it's still not the correct birth name.
He was a child of Iren's first husband and only officially got the Czettel surname when he was adopted by his mother's new husband Odon in 1902. Wish I could get a copy of the picture with that article and a translation of the supporting text, but its a PDF file.
The only decent photo I have of him suggesting his femine tendency, is the pass he obtained circa 1918 when he crossed the Austrian border at Feldkirch. Bezirkshauptmannschaft Feldkirch Passvisen 1914-1918 (Schachtel 474 u. 475)
As a gay Jew, he was fortunate to escape the holocaust, his half brother, actor Emmerich Czettel, was not so lucky. Roy G
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you are right - it´s a saved pdf-file, so not printable.
have not seen that, what a pity for you. but i have seen another picture - must look again.....
here it is and you can copy it: http://www.bildarchivaustria.at/Pages/ImageDetail.aspx?p_iBildID=306169
also another - him with Hilde Radnay >> Ladislaus Czettel zusammen mit Hilde Radnay bei der Anprobe eines Abendkleides:
http://www.bildarchivaustria.at/Bildarchiv//410/B306174T4679616.jpg
http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/92060/2CBD4D28AB6F093F1686C8085A8863F25B833441.html
is this the document you mean? it states he came from Hotel St.Gotthard in Zürich, Switzerland (before lived Davos) via Feldkirch, Vorarlberg, Austria to Budapest in 1919. it shows the relative (father Edmund Czettel, Dohanystreet 20, Budapest) he went in Hungary. but better you tell if you know this document or not before make translation. it´s in german and was made by austrian-hungarian (KuK) general-consulat in Zürich.
http://123nonstop.com/biography/Czettel,_Ladislaw
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~prohel/pictures/Misc-5/1919_Ladislav_Laci_Czettel_pass.jpg
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~prohel/pictures/Misc-5/1919_Ladislav_Laci_Czettel.jpg
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Yes that was the pass which I already have, so no need to translate. On that document he translated his adopted father's Hungarian name (Odon) as Edward. The Zigmond on the toombstone was his step grandfather and it was me that photographed it and gave it to Peter Rohel's website. However the other Austrian website you recommended I had never visited and I thank you so much. Especially as it has what I believe to be two pictures of him in drag, if the size of the feet and shape of the nose are anything to go by.
Films and plays on which Laci Czettel worked
Einbrecher (1930) aka Burglars (English title) Murder for Sale (USA) aka Der Einbrecher (Germany)
Tagebuch der Geliebten (1935) aka Affairs of Maupassant (USA) aka Maria Baschkirtzeff (Austria)
Diario di una donna amata, (1935) aka Affairs of Maupassant (USA)
Pygmalion (1938) aka Bernard Shaw's Pygmalion (English title) Called himself Professor L. Czettel.
Rosalinda (1942-1944) Original, Musical, Operetta. Costume Design by Ladislas Czettel
Helen Goes to Troy (1944) Play Costume Design by Ladislas Czettel
La Vie Parisienne (1945) Revival, Musical Comedy Opera Costume Design by Ladislas Czettel
Roy G
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the two pictures in the list of "Austrian National Bibliothec" so in fact in an archive:
http://www.bildarchivaustria.at/Pages/Praesentation.aspx?p_iAusstellungID=1206966&p_iPage=18&p_ItemID=&p_eBildansicht=2
Österreichische Nationalbibliothek: http://www.onb.ac.at/ev/index.php
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So glad to have found your discussion. I have begun researching the costume and fashion designer Ladislas Czettel (1895–1949) in New York archives and have so many questions. My interest came about because when I emptied my great-aunt's apartment after she died in 1981, I discovered 14 original opera costume designs signed Czettel in a brown paper bag in her storeroom. At the time I tried to sell them at Sotheby's, but the reserve price was not met and I took them back. Then, just this summer, being semi-retired, I decided to try to sell them again. However, when I took them out, this time I loved them and determined to find out who Czettel was. So far the search is beyond fascinating; nevertheless, there seems to be no biography of him. I would like to pose questions if this thread is still active. One of the many mysteries is where he is buried. I contacted both the funeral home that handled his body, Frank E. Campbell, and Saint Ignatius Loyola Church on Park Ave (of all places!), where he had a requiem mass. Both went back to their 1949 records and neither noted a burial place. The Archdiocese gave a special dispensation to have the requiem mass but did not say why. (Not a member of the parish, not a Catholic, a suicide?) One important question is how observant was Czettel's family when he was growing up, did he get bar mitzvahed, did he perhaps convert from Judaism?
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Hi
Love to add to your knowledge as I have a great biography for Ladislav. Be advised there are a number of falsehoods on the internet which I generally put down to circumstance (being an adopted Jew) and personal vanity (gay and wanting to seem younger than he was) I am therefore sending you a PM so we can exchange e-mail addresses and then communicate privately.
regards Roy
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Thanks so much for your reply, Roy! I am new to RootsChat and must post three times before I can send a personal message; this is Number two.
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I believe (hope) this will count as posting Number three.
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i also noticed this is your first posting so you may not get my Private Message. If you dont, drop me a line here and I'll try to find some other way of passing all the info including photos on.
Roy
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You then went off line, so no connection. Pity.
I sent another message so look at the PMs again later. Roy
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Answers to the questions.
There seems to be no biography of him.
There used to be one on Hungarian Wki where someone plagiarised my research and put a short one out, but even that seems to have been removed.
Where he is buried?
No Idea, nor do I know who inherited his estate which was considered significant.
..... a requiem mass ... but Not a member of the parish, nor a Catholic, and who committed suicide?
No evidence of him giving up the Jewish faith. Some sources say he took his own life because of a painful cancer, an alternative is that it was grief over the loss of his younger half brother (actor Emerich Czettel) who never survived Dachau.
How aware were Czettel's family when he was growing up?
How aware of what? His gayness? Remember in liberal Europe and the USA in 1949, being gay was then considered a crime.
Did he get bar mitzvahed?
Yes, but the synagogue records focus more on his adoption by his new step father.
Did he perhaps convert from Judaism?
Not to my knowledge but he was living in so many capital cities (Budapest, Vienna, Berlin, Paris, and London, there may be a record somewhere to that effect. I have photos of his Viennese apartment with a large 17th century Madona on display, but am of the opinion it was because he invested in valuable antiques, not a religious conversion.
Roy
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Emmerich Czettel - in Dachau list:
http://stevemorse.org/dachau/dachau.html
Did we have in the past the Ladislaus Wikipedia in german? https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladislaus_Czettel
http://www.kulturpool.at/plugins/kulturpool/showitem.action?itemId=25769862436&kupoContext=default
https://books.google.at/books?id=T0wz3etGJoUC&pg=PA568&lpg=PA568&dq=Ladislaus+Czettel&source=bl&ots=CK2NMotUIs&sig=HmTteT9PnSqqvyrQOeXD8blV8dU&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBDgKahUKEwiN5oW3irXIAhUCPxoKHe_4DCQ#v=onepage&q=Ladislaus%20Czettel&f=false
This was his address: Bäckerstr.18, 1010 Wien. To get at google maps.
Stated here at the book "Art collection and furnishings from the possession of Professor Ladislaus Czettel in Vienna": https://books.google.at/books/about/Kunstsammlung_und_Wohnungseinrichtung_au.html?id=89fHtwAACAAJ&redir_esc=y
I found him listed at Passvisen/ Passport Visas for Feldkirch, Vorarlberg 1914-1918 listed
page 6/38
-> Czettel, Ladislaus Philipp
Beruf/ profession Gewerbekünstler?/ Commercial Artist
Geburtsdatum/ birthdate 03.12.1896/ Dec 03, 1896, Budapest, Ungarn
Staatsbürgerschaft Ungarn/ citizenship Hungary
Bild/ picture Ja/yes
https://www.vorarlberg.at/pdf/rep_14-024bezirkshauptma4.pdf
I wonder why he got just THERE the Visa. Lived he also in Feldkirch close at border to Switzerland?
He was 18-20 Jahre in 1914-1916. What I know - Vorarlberg had some very old Jewish communities.
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Found now also this with wrong birth day, month and year.
After his correct date 3.12.1896 (how written in Europe) the year is in the Link below wrong and March 12 happened because of wrong interpretation about the european way of writing it.
3.12 in Europe is Dec 3rd. ;)
Who created this Geni?
http://www.geni.com/people/Lazlo-Czettel/6000000012740089679
He is stated with this parents -> Son of Dr. Fülöp Donáth and Irén Donath-Czettel.
Looking on all that people it shows, that Irén was married also with Ödon Czettel, father of half brother Emmerich, born 1900. Very confusing to order chronology to that all. ;) But interesting and "About Lazlo Philip Czettel" makes some more clear for outsiders. ;)
Ok, it brings light also on the Feldkirch Visa Theme:
"He was recorded obtaining a pass to cross the western border of Austria at Feldkirch during WW1, was listed as a clothing supplier in Vienna and became a German émigré who entered the USA from London prior to WW2. His half brother (Emmerich Czettel an actor) was killed in Dachau and he committed suicide in New York in 1949."
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Hi Carithiangirl, nice to see you still contributing. I've missed you.
There are a few issues needing comment here.
The Geni site is mine, but the birth date you gave of 1896 that appears on the pass is incorrect. His birth was officially registered in Budapest as Laszlo Donath on 12 March 1895. (also recorded on LDS 642973, Vol. 24). A further endorsement of 1895 being the correct year is his father's death Ladislav, was the son of Iren nee Kovari and her late husband Dr. Fulop Donath who died in 1894 and was buried, side B, row 237, grave 31 in Budapest’s Salgótarjáni út Jewish Cemetery.
I have also puzzled for many years about that Feldkirk visa. He was certainly of an age when he should have been called up. Would being just a year younger have made a difference? Perhaps he was doing his best to place himself in or near to Switzerland where he could avoid enlistment.
I missed the Wiki page in German, mainly because my focus was on either Hungarian or English.
Isn't the auctioneers catalogue from 1937 with over 500 antiques listed in the rooms they were in an amazing document? It looks like he was one of the more astute Jews and managed to capitalise on the value of his entire collection before the state decided they would just confiscate the apartment with all its contents.
By the way, we have since positively identified where in the USA he is buried, but now want to know what a Jew is doing in a Roman Catholic cemetery and having had a mass said over him.
Roy G
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Ah, ok Geni is yours. :)
The german Wikpedia about him think was not in the past on the internet. Looks to be more new. I looked at old postings but did not find it there and also did not remember that we have had it before in the postings.
Of sure is, that many Jews in Vienna and also at other places converted to be not discriminated or when they had a curios german name, which they did not like to have longer and some more. Would really assume they also did anywhere around 1900.
Example John Kerry - his family came from Bohemia, was named before Kohn then have taken Kerry. It was said they have threw a pencil on a map and where it fell the future name should be for them. The pencil ended up at place Kerry in Ireland. ;) No idea if that is a true story or a tall story. See link below what´s written to Kerry and the picture for "Baptismal record of Fritz Kohn in Mödling, parish St. Othmar" and an older for Bohemia.
http://www.johnkerry.at
Did we have this Links with info to the theme in the past for Vienna? They are in german.
Jewish converts in Vienna 1782 - 1914: A project at the Austrian. Akad. Of Sciences
http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/2005/01/konvertiten.htm
The pdf file: Jewish converts in Vienna 1782-1914
http://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa500d_0x0014a7d9.pdf
"Due to the baptism he asks for change of his pronounced first and last name ...":
To the name change of Judeo-Protestant converts in Vienna, 1782 - 1914
http://www.judentum.net/geschichte/namenswechsel.htm
Yes, this 1937 book is very interesting and the statement "antique furniture, chandeliers, antiques, porcelain, glass, pottery, sculptures, silver, carpets, ornaments, textiles, paintings, engravings, books, etc .; because split stay between London and Vienna; voluntary auction there even 28, and October 29, 1937."
Can be that it can be seen online? or to get anywhere to buy? See here some for University Heidelberg, Germany and some other places. https://www.google.at/#q=Kunstsammlung+und+Wohnungseinrichtung+aus+dem+Besitze+des+Herrn+Professor+Ladislaus+Czettel%2C+in+Wien%2C+I.%2C+Bäckerstraße+18%2C+IV.+Stock+(Lift)%2C+Tel.+R-25-1-27:+
http://www.worldcat.org/identities/lccn-no2008-107299/
-> Some similar also - looks that many did: http://www.zvdd.de/de/dms/search/?tx_goobit3_search%5Borderfield%5D=yearpublish&tx_goobit3_search%5Border%5D=0&tx_goobit3_search%5Blink%5D=794&tx_goobit3_search%5Bextquery%5D=dc%3Adruckschriften.ub.uni.heidelberg.de&tx_goobit3_search%5Bdefault%5D=metadata
http://katalogbeta.slub-dresden.de/?tx_find_find%5Bq%5D%5Bauthor%5D=Auktionshaus%20Albert%20Kende&tx_find_find%5Bfacet%5D=
Czettel again: http://www.zvdd.de/de/dms/search/?tx_goobit3_search%5Borderfield%5D=yearpublish&tx_goobit3_search%5Border%5D=0&tx_goobit3_search%5Blink%5D=0&tx_goobit3_search%5Bdefault%5D=metadata&tx_goobit3_search%5B0%5D=0
http://www.zvdd.de/de/dms/load/met/?PPN=urn%3Anbn%3Ade%3Absz%3A16-diglit-112148
I remeber my Viennesse grandma told me before very long time when was a young girl that she buyed her living room furniture for a very good price from a Jew before WW2, because he left Austria. And she hurried to get it when she heard about. The furniture was very antique thing from cherry wood and had flat brass figures (some angels) and Decorations. Normally she would not have had such furniture, but on the fact that many Jews left and looked for people who buy, it was not so expensive to get. I wonder who it was and if the person made it to a safe place with his family. I know that there was then a time they could not longer go anywhere and we know what happened then. :-[