RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: Razzy on Sunday 12 June 11 04:25 BST (UK)
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I would like help in my research.
John Harris ROBERTSON bAug 28th, 1877
Drayton, Ontario (Wellington County?? 1877??)
married Ellen SHAW (Manitoba 1901-002120)
two children Hespor Oliver 1902 manitoba, and Effie/Effy Pearl 1905 manitoba
in the 1906 census lived in Portage la Prairie
John Harris ROBERTSON WW1 regimental # 1051055 now (1916) lives in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan .
When I checked the 1911 census, I have this:
1911 Census of Canada
Home / 1911 / Saskatchewan / Prince Albert / 33 Prince Albert / page 2 split view
9 10 Robertson John M Head M Aug 1883 37 1901
10 10 Robertson Ellen F Wife M Jun 1884 26 1901
11 10 Robertson ?isper M Son S May 1905 6 1901
12 10 Robertson John M Son S Jun 1808 3 1901
13 10 Robertson Mary F Mother M Feb 1846 65 1901
14 10 Robertson Felicia F Cousin S Oct 1895 15 1901
15 10 Robertson David M Father M Oct 1842 68 1901
16 10 Robertson Andrew M Cousin S Sep 1889 21 1901
17 10 Robertson Thomas M Cousin S Nov 1897 13 1901
18 10 Robertson Austin M Cousin S Sep 1900 10 1901
19 10 ? Frank M Lodger M Sep ng 1901
20 10 Robertson Chas.
I am missing Effie/Effy who late married my great uncle.
In researching I find ROBERTSONs are Scots and SHAWs are irish.
Do I have the right family? There are alot of ROBERTSONs in the areas I searched.
I hope to find if Effy was with another family or what and where.
I hope to find where Hespor disappeared to.
I hope to find where David and Mary (if John Harris' correct parents) originated in Scotland
I hope to find where John and Eliza SHAW (Ellens parents) who eimmigrated to Canada in 1889 originated in Ireland first, then from where in England.
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The Saskatchewan vital stats genealogy database (http://www.isc.ca/VitalStatistics/Genealogy/vsgs_srch.aspx) has a birth for William John Robertson born 18 Aug 1908 to John Harris Robertson and Ellen Shaw in Prince Albert.
Jacquie
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Thank you Jacquie, I never thought to look at Sask births.
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Hi Razzy
Afraid I can't add much new information for you.
However I did find a couple of things about Hesper which you may not know.
There are Attestation Papers for:
Hesper Robertson 114 - 15 Street W. Prince Albert, Saskatchewan
father Mr. John Robertson address as above
date of birth : March 25, 1900
signed: April 18, 1916 in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan
He is discharged in 1917 for being underage.
So apparently they were in Prince Albert in 1916 but I sure can't find any of them on the 1916 Census.
Then a death notice from British Columbia Death Index:
Name: Hesper Oliver Robertson
Date of death: 17 Sep 1962
Age: 59
Place of death: Saanich
I can't find a darn thing on Effie.
dollylee
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Thanks Dollylee,
I think I found Effie back in Manitoba:
in 1916 census in Winnipeg North #330 Cathedral living with COOPERs.
Does not totally add up as Pearl is to be the sis-in-law to wife Beatrice, and are to have english ancestry.
Maybe COOPER as head of house determined that?.
Beatrice could be a daughter I have not found or was documented in a previous census under another name.
In the same house were GRAVLEY (uncle and aunt).
Then I had help finding:
Agnes Beatrice Robertson
30 Jan 1882
Female
Wellington
David Robertson
Mary Jane Brooks.
So even though ROBERTSONs are scots, COOPER as Head of House may have called everyone english.
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This person has more children born in Prince Albert & Regina, and some deaths in Calgary...so they moved over another Province or two...although has death of John Harris Robertson in Saskatoon
http://www.geni.com/people/Ellen-Shaw/6000000000644747580
Note that Ellen & Nellie are interchangeable...so not a new part of her name...Dolly is also usually a nickname, but although used for Dorothy, I have heard of it used for Kathy, Margaret & Martha...etc. ...so might just be an open nickname that has nothing to do with a middle name...
So first step is to send for the marriage cert to see if parent's names and her origin may be listed
( Naughty Hesper trying to run off and join the forces at age 14... ;D ) Thank goodness they found him out....Enough for the older boys to bear
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I know you probably have this, but we're looking for her family...so am posting for others as well
( Plus you had said 1901 )
Ellen was only 14/15 when they married, wow The registration was in 1901 but the marriage actually took place October 25, 1900 ... Here they are in the North Norfork / Macdonald
district where they married...Father and siblings on page
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/View.jsp?id=64209&highlight=18
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I see you may have all this...
using 1891 with parents and adding dates as I find them from 1901 and other census
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/census-1891/001081-119.02-e.php?person_id_nbr=130073
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/uidlinks/Links.jsp?uid=150943117
John Shaw. Nov 25, 1839-1841 Ireland & wife Eliza Jane Aug 6, 1846-1850 Ire , son David c1871 Ire
John Thomas c.1873 (Not sure maybe Guernsey??)
Anne c.1876, Sarah Aug 10 c.1878-79, William Aug 24 c.1880-82, Mary Jane Nov 26,1882, & Ellen c.1885 all born England.
George c 1889 and/or James born Feb 13 1889 Manitoba will be important ones as parents would be listed...
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Here they are in 1881 Portland, Dorset, England
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/census/household_record.asp?HOUSEHOLD_CODE=1881BR_2138698
John Ireland Civil Guard C S c.1840 Ireland and Eliza J. c.1851 Ireland
David A. SHAW c.1871 Ireland
John T. SHAW c.1873 Jersey, Channel Islands
Ann SHAW c.1877 Cheshire
Sarah SHAW c.1879 Chatham, Kent
William H. SHAW 1880 ( 7 month old baby) Portland, Dorset
Hmmmm Coincidence? ( yours are Ontario) But some doors down are a Robertson family...he is also a Civil Guard C S Naval Pens :
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/census/household_record.asp?HOUSEHOLD_CODE=1881BR_2138706
so Sarah may be the birth Sept. Q. 1878 Medway / vol. 2a p.537
and William Henry birth Sept. Q 1880 Weymouth / vol. 5a p.337
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So if they stayed in portland Dorset, these Weymouth births follow, incl. Ellen listed, prior to emigration
Mary Jane Shaw Dec Q 1882 / vol. 5a p.326
Ellen Shaw Dec Q 1884 / vol. 5a p.339 ( You should pick up the cert for the mother's surname)
Isaac Hugh Shaw Dec Q 1886 / vol. 5a p.307 ( death Sept.Q. 1887 )
Elizabeth Alice Shaw March Q 1887 / vol. 5a p.?11
Donald Patrick Shaw June Q 1888 / vol. 5a p.301
Mary Jane married Samuel Montrose Williams March 28th 1900
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/View.jsp?id=11349&highlight=34
Sarah married James Thomas Pell July 12 1899
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/View.jsp?id=64203&highlight=8
John Thomas Shaw married Catherine Margaret McDougall Feb 2 1898
Can't see them but they are having babies in N.Norfolk
a John Shaw died Dec. 31 1916 age 77 RM North Norfolk
an Eliza Jane died august 19 1924 age 79 Portage La Prairie
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Surprised we haven't seen the surname for Eliza yet... Maybe she's down as Liza Jane?
Here are seven of them coming in June 5 1888 on the Siberian to Quebec, no David
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/passengers-quebec-1865-1900/001082-119.03-e.php?&interval=20&person_id_nbr=624655
added: There is a birth of a David Shaw Aug 19 1870 —Dublin, Ireland parents John Shaw, Eliza Jane King
Baptism says birth took place 2 North City, City Of Dublin, Ire
christening address 560, 2 North City, City Of Dublin, whatever that means
http://search.labs.familysearch.org
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Hey Razzy,
I didn't know you had more relatives in Saskatchewan Razzy. An addition to J.J.'s find about the John Robertson possibly being buried in Saskatoon.
Checking the local cemetery index in Saskatoon I can confirm a John Harris Robertson buried in Woodlawn Cemetery in January 3, 1973 with an obituary in the Star Phoenix dated for January 2. I can look at the obituary maybe Friday/Saturday to see if it's yours for sure.
I also looked at the homestead index and found one John Harris Robertson living near Paddockwood, SK (2 hours north of Leask), there is a history book at the library as well that I can check out at the same time as the obit.
Fingers crossed,
Jeff
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Wow!
I'm amazed.
I have been helping people and am just getting back on this search.
I originally am looking for LARSON burials (Lars, Laura, and children except Hilda) and also Effy Pearl ROBERTSON who married a g/uncle and whom both died in Vancouver.
Where they were married.
I am happy I recieved so much help!
I recieved an acknowledgement from RM Leask of my emails and that is all I know for now.
I am challenged in knowing how to copy and paste from autoated genealogy, or LAC to this forum.
Finding information in Ireland too has been astonishing.
On another thread I was trying to find other ancestors in Ireland which seems successful.
I am still trying to find yet more in Ireland and also here in Canada.
Going back to ROBERTSONs and LARSONs, even GRAHAMs I seem to find the same family with the same nationality in different places and I need to step back, clear my head, and try again.
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You asked for a lot more than that in your very first posting on the thread...Or at least that is what I thought "I hope to find" meant... Sorry I guess I got carried away, I needed a distraction at the time... ;D
You actually are not supposed to cut/copy & paste information directly from any census or genealogy site. You can rewrite some of the information to avoid infringement on copyright. Although collections Canada doesn't mind, other sources do, and so we must respect the copyright views & rules of the forum.
I just copy the link and then briefly list pertinent information.
Hello Jeff...headed to Sask. soon ...Looks as though your weather matches ours...Cloudy with a chance of sun.
all the best, J.J.
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Heading directly my way, or just passing by??
Jeff
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Yes, I am very happy with all the information and the depth of help.
I could not have done this research to this degree.
I knew my g/uncle and aunt but was too young then to know to
ask them genealogical questions and write down the answers.
So now I have this written down and as in my previous post, at times,
I become confused as to what I am looking at and need the backup from a new set of eyes and skill levels and a fresh view to clear this research up.
Also how nicknames or names themselves are changed.In the site I have learned Eleanor, Ella, Nellie, Ellen, Hellen, one 'L' or two 'Ls' are all one variation of one persons name; then Dolly, Dorothy, I couldconnect Dot to Dorothy before.
Also Margaret, but I did not know Peggy was used for Margaret.
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:-X Here's a couple of dozen nicknames for Margaret...and links to other nicknames:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,128404.msg2180336.html#msg2180336
Please remember these ( ie: Ireland birth) are merely found information, not necessarily yours....you must get some certs when real proof is needed!
jeff I'll reply in a p.m. ;D
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I just realized the statement "connected the DOT to Dorothy" has other meanings as well...Giggled a bit when I reread that!
The marriage of your Stewart Bertram Graham & Effie Pearl Robertson doesn't appear to be in Manitoba, unless it was within 80years. Patience may yet find it there or in Saskatchewan, once marriages are transcribed. Hopefully it was not in Alberta or you won't find it without paying for it...
Let the others know what information you still need! I am away from the computer for a while! J.J.
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I have been told this week that Stewart Bertram GRAHAM and Effie Pearl ROBERTSON were married late as in the 1960s or early 1970s.
My family is unconfirmed on the year and I am unsure of how solid the information is.
I could not find out if this was Pearls' first marriage and am unable to find out where in Canada.
Stewart and Pearl lived in Vancouver, BC and died. I have Pearls' death rgistration and am waiting this year for Stewarts' to be released.
Since Pearl and her family has lived in BC, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba;
and Stewart is from Ontario, I just cannot say.
I have asked Cebe to help in a couple of other family members GRAHAM and McINNIS.
It must be a tough research as I have not heard from him in a few weeks.
I have a third family member.
John George GRAHAM b1878 in Cumberland step-brother to Stewart Bertram GRAHAM.
Family says he went to either Australia or New Zealand.
I have had help in finding John Georges' sister Eleanor who married in Winnipeg and immigrated to Australia but I fail to find her brother there in Australia.
On the New Zealand forum there does not appear to be a general look up request forum but instead I need to pre-determine where a person would be and then request for that particular area.
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I have a third family member.
John George GRAHAM b1878 in Cumberland step-brother to Stewart Bertram GRAHAM.
Family says he went to either Australia or New Zealand.
I have had help in finding John Georges' sister Eleanor who married in Winnipeg and immigrated to Australia but I fail to find her brother there in Australia.
Could this be your John George Graham in Canada:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ds5/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ds5/)
Jacquie
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I have Pearls' death rgistration and am waiting this year for Stewarts' to be released.
I know the second name is a bit off for Stewart and the age for Effie but I thought these could be the death registrations for the two of them.
Name: Stewart Bertman Graham
Place: Vancouver
date: December 18, 1989
event: Death
age: 79 Reg. #: 1989-09-021846 Microfilm: B17125 GSU # 1709284 copy available
Names: Effie Graham
place: Surrey
date: January 1, 1990
event: Death
age: 78 Reg: #: 1990-09-000089 Microfilm: B17141 GSU # 1709286
That would mean they died just 13 days apart and right at Christmas no less. :-\
dollylee
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Sorry Jacquie,
I could not successfully open that link.
I have tried a St. Catherines, Lincoln County census John George married,
with a brother Robert.
It does not seem to be the right one.
That seemed so close as Robert but was born in 1886 in Durham or Northumberland.
I forgot that he too is a missing member of my family, and no-one seems to recall where Robert went.
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Hi dollylee,
Pearls' death registration states Oct 1981.
I do not know this other Effie from Surrey or what family connection there might be.
I do know they lived in Vancouver.
The Stewart you found is the same.
The library has not recieved this microfilm yet so I cannot see the registration until the library recieves the microfilm.
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Hey Razzy,
I was at the library and looked up the John Robertson obituary, who died on December 31, 1972. The information lines up with what you have.
As well his gravestone at the cemetery, which he was buried in the soldier's field. I took pictures of the gravestone if you are interested. Ellen's obituary is probably in the Calgary paper, I do have access but it's through the University.
Lastly I checked for an area history book from Paddockwood, their are some Robertson's mentioned but could not tell if they were yours since I didn't have the information at my fingertips.
Talk to you soon,
Jeff
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I was at the library in Vancouver last week(?), I tried the obits on Stewart GRAHAM and was unsuccessful in searching the Vancouver Sun and the Province -the only two papers.
I was pressed for time, I did not check if Pearl had an obit to see if possible where they married, or when.
I will have to do this, maybe there will be some clue.
After I will see if I can see when the ROBERTSONs came to Canada. David and Mary seem to have been born here so it will go back to their parents.
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Sorry Jacquie,
I could not successfully open that link.
I fixed the link. It's the attestation papers for a John George Graham born 1877 in Cumberland, England.
Jacquie
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I was looking for my previous thread on John George and St. Catherines, Lincoln County, Ontario.
May (his wife) sounds like the same family in St. Catherines.
There was a brother Robert living with them.
I checked the 1911 census but did not find him.
I wanted to see when he arrived in canada, parents, if John George went to Australia or New Zealand by 1920ish.
I believe I ran into a brick wall on that. John George and Roberts father came in 1895.
Whether John George, Robert and others decided to return to England, then come back to canada is just a thought, a guess.
I just do not see them in the later census'.
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It would appear the John Graham in the attestation papers is a different one from your John as the birthdate is different from the information you have in your tree at Ancestry.
The Ontario births database (at Ancestry) has a birth for Stewart Bertram Graham on 6 Jun 1910 to Thomas Graham and Alice J. Grame in Kenora, Ontario. The birth registration indicates the parents married in 1893 in St Johns Church, Newcastle. There are a number of births for other children to Thomas/Thomas A. Graham and Alice/Alice J/Alice Jane Graham/Grame all born in Rainy River District but I see you have them in your tree already.
Jacquie
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The birth registration indicates the parents married in 1893 in St Johns Church, Newcastle.
Jacquie,
I have been trying for a long time and a difficult time trying to find Thomas and Alice Janes' marriage. The year falls into place. How did you find this?
I have tried freebmd and could never find their two names together.
I take it to be Newcastle upon Tyne, as there are three different Newcastles in England.
John George had a different mother (Sarah WILSON), 1st marriage of Thomas.
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As I said, it was included on the birth registration for Stewart in the Ontario births database at Ancestry.
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll198/Takara_Soong/birth.jpg)
The only marriage in the Free BMD in 1893 in Newcastle that I could find had Thomas Graham and a Mary Oliver Graham on the same page. The Newcastle City Council's historical marriage database indicates they married at St John the Baptist Church: http://www.rootschat.com/links/0dtz/ Is it possible that Alice changed her name?
It's not included in the information on the incoming Canadian passenger list which you have but on the outgoing UK passenger list for the Numidian which departed from Liverpool on 20 Jun 1895, both Maggie and Jennie are listed as someone's "wife". Tom Simpson, Tom Graham, Geo Graham, Thos Graham and Robt Graham were all listed on one ticket and the next ticket number had Maggie Graham, Ellen Graham, Jennie Graham and Eva L. Graham. Tom Simpson's age is listed in the column for "married" - was he perhaps Maggie's husband?
Jacquie
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Thanks Jacquie,
It is a bonus for us when the different government forms ask more questions.
I checked the previous nine births from my g/grandparents and only since 1910 did the gov't include extra questions.
Previous to this the births before Stewart were on 'schedules'; before 1906 there were no official stamped numbers.
I was not able top find two births, brothers to Stewart.
Charles Douglas GRAHAM b July 19th, 1907
Percival Ivan GRAHAM b Dec 14th, 1913.
Same parents Thomas and Alice Jane GRAHAM
Rainy River, Kenora, Ontario.
Percy is where I will have to wait three more years.
Charles I should have found but did not on Ancestry library edition.
Is there anyone who can find this birth (Charles Douglas GRAHAM) registration?
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I'm not sure why this doesn't show up on a search but it's there if you go through the pages.
Ontario, Canada Births, 1869-1911 Rainy River District 1907 image 35 entry #3
Graham, Chas. Douglass. male, July 19, 1907. father Thomas Graham, mother Alice Jane Grame, Kenora, father Car Repairer. Dr. Gunne, person making return : Alice McMillian, August 20, 1907. Registration No: 040333
dollylee
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Thanks dollylee,
I could not find this in the library ancestry
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Here is the other thread regarding John George:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=ji2v94e0dstjra1lhmji1solg4&topic=532132.0
jacquie replied with the attestation papers in that one as well J.J.
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I modified the post after you read it ... must have crossed just as you were leaving your message. ;)
As I said it wasn't found on a search but by going through the pages of 1907 so easy to understand why you weren't able to find it.
dollylee
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I am sure happy with the help I am recieving.
I will have to wait until I have more money to buy from GRO John George and Florence May HEATHs marriage to see who John George has listed as his father.
It has to be Thomas.
On another note.
John George and his attestation papers.
John Georges' younger half-brother William (born Sept 2nd, 1901); family said William joined the U.S. Army and went to Russia.
Recently I found that the americans did go into Russia in WW1 (called the eastern front and not in the public eye as much) in Vladivostok and Archangel.
If by chance this is the right John George maybe William did have a skipping-stone jump into Michigan. That is the U.S. state maybe all of the troops came from when sent to Russia.
However in my research online and emails, no William GRAHAM ever did go to Russia.
I have checked the battalions who went 339; 85; 310; 337; the canadian 57 CEF.
The Bentley Museum who lists online all the troops that went.
Michigans`own museum in Frankenmuth, Michigan.
I have tried National Archives and there is a section of papers that were lost to fire where my g/uncle William could have been listed.
I checked with the canadian Legion `Last Post`I tried the american Legion.
Apart from that possible clue of John George, I have to find that what family has said is to be true of William being in the U.S. Army and going to Russia.
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I am sure happy with the help I am recieving.
I think, at this point, it may be more helpful for you to make a new post on either the U.S. general board or the Military Board to help you with your question about William joining the Army. It would have to be re-worded to make sense to "new eyes". The title of this thread is no longer appropriate for the information you are requesting. Actually it hasn't been since we left the Robertsons. :D
It is very important that you put a link to this thread so eager searchers don't spend time looking for information you already have. Don't mark this thread as completed yet as there may be some people still working to find you information pertaining to other questions asked here.
dollylee
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I know 'copy and paste'.
To post a link to this thread, I tried vewing berlin bobs information on tech issues, and using the computer.
I don't seem to see how to link this thread or others to this thread as requested is discussed.
I know 'copy and paste' so I am asking for help on how to do this 'link'.
I have seen this blue bar where people have been quoted to follow a quote.
I notice where I can click onto a blue printed font.
I see where Jacquie was able to take a picture of Stewarts' parents marriage information.
I do not know how people do these things.
One of these are called 'a link'.
I should learn how to do this, I do not know if I missed berlin bobs information on this or maybe this information is somewhere else.
Where are these information pages, hopefully they are written very simply.
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Hi Jacquie,
I followed Thomas Simpson using his age/dob;
I believe in the 1901 census
7 73 Simpson Thos. M Head M Jan 8 1867 34
7 35 73 Simpson Maggie F Wife M Apr 20 1871 29
7 36 73 Simpson T???? M Son S Jan 15 1896 5
7 37 73 Simpson Violet F Daughter S Sep 16 1897 3
7 38 73 Simpson Jack M Son S Mar 24 1898 2
Source Information: 1901 Census of Canada
Subdistrict: Vancouver (City/Cité), BURRARD, BRITISH COLUMBIA
District Number: 1
Subdistrict Number: d-23
Archives Microfilm: T-6428
They immigrated in 1894 first born was in NWT, the other two in Calagary, Alberta
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I know 'copy and paste'.
To post a link to this thread, I tried vewing berlin bobs information on tech issues, and using the computer.
I don't seem to see how to link this thread or others to this thread as requested is discussed.
I know 'copy and paste' so I am asking for help on how to do this 'link'.
I have seen this blue bar where people have been quoted to follow a quote.
I notice where I can click onto a blue printed font.
I see where Jacquie was able to take a picture of Stewarts' parents marriage information.
I do not know how people do these things.
One of these are called 'a link'.
I should learn how to do this, I do not know if I missed berlin bobs information on this or maybe this information is somewhere else.
Where are these information pages, hopefully they are written very simply.
Hi Razzy, I just sent you instructions in a PM. Hope they work for you. Cheers,
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The birth registration indicates the parents married in 1893 in St Johns Church, Newcastle.
Jacquie,
I have been trying for a long time and a difficult time trying to find Thomas and Alice Janes' marriage. The year falls into place. How did you find this?
I have tried freebmd and could never find their two names together.
I take it to be Newcastle upon Tyne, as there are three different Newcastles in England.
John George had a different mother (Sarah WILSON), 1st marriage of Thomas.
Razzy has started a new thread on the Newcastle marriage here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,539692.msg3934081.html#msg3934081
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Hi Razzy,
Lars and Laura were the parents of my grandfather Olaf.