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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Argyllshire => Topic started by: cakemagic on Sunday 12 June 11 19:36 BST (UK)
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There has been a legend in my family for many years - long before I started tracing my family history 14 years ago- and I am still no nearer to finding if the legend is true. My 3 x great grandfather, Robert Campbell was born around 1787 "somewhere in Scotland". It is alleged that one of his ancestors was the daughter of the Duke of Argyll and she eloped with a coachman. The Duke was apparently so angry when he found that they had married that he tore the marriage entry out of the parish register. It sounds very unlikely that he would do this but that is how the story has been passed down for generations. A few of my family are very proud that they may be related to the Dukes of Argyll and I would love to find the truth. Has anyone any ideas?
Robert Campbell married in Lowther in Westmorland in 1813 and was one of the stone masons involved with the building of Lowther Castle. In the 1841/1851 census he is just listed as being born in Scotland. Very frustrating!!
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Would a child carry the Campbell name if it was a daughter who ran off with the coachman?
The Dukes of Argyll family name is Campbell so the daughter would be a Campbell, but her coachman could have been anyone (except possibly a McDonald! :P)
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What was his brides name? I cant find a marriage listed for Robert/Robt or Rot on FreeReg, do you have the transcript from the OPR?
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The family always assumed that the "coachman" was a lowlier clan Campbell member? My ancestor Robert Campbell- married at St Michaels Church Lowther on August 14th 1813 to Mary Fallowfield.
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I would agree with Fifer on this - a coachman? The Argylls were a proud and powerful family and if a daughter had run off, and that's a big IF, she would have been fetched back in jig-time! (And the coachman would have had a watery grave somewhere). To be honest, this is an impossible thing to prove, you say It is alleged that one of his ancestors was the daughter of the Duke of Argyll but how far back was this? I have been tracing other peoples ancestry for over 40 years now and I wish I had a gold sovereign for everytime I've heard a story like this. The dukes of Hamilton were also accused of having illegitimate offspring all over the banks o' Clyde, as were their daughters. Families with the surname Hamilton, Campbell, Scott etc are prone to this sort of legend I'm afraid.
My advice is to put it to one side and go on with what you can prove, it will be just as interesting and, as far as I know, the Campbells up at Inveraray Castle are pretty skint this weather, so no chance of a nice inheritance :'(
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The family always assumed that the "coachman" was a lowlier clan Campbell member? My ancestor Robert Campbell- married at St Michaels Church Lowther on August 14th 1813 to Mary Fallowfield.
I can't find the marriage on FreeReg. :-\ Do you have the full transcript of what is written in the OPR? If so can you post it here, so we can research who your Robert Campbell was.
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Robert Campbell was married in the parish church of St. Michael in Lowther, Westmorland, England to Mary Fallowfield on August 14th 1813. This is the only information given in the OPR. In his obituary in the Westmorland Gazette- quote- "he was the last of those who came from Scotland to help with the building of Lowther Castle". The 1841/1851 census just state "born in Scotland"circa 1787. Any useful comments would be much appreciated. Thanks very much.
P.S. His children's names were Robert Martin, David, Mary, Agnes, Hannah, Catherine and Isabella Campbell.
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Could you give his stated age per 1841 and 1851 census and do you have the names of Mary's parents?
Are these all the children?
MARY CAMPBELL Female Christening: 21 AUG 1814 Lowther, Westmorland, England
CATHERINE CAMPBELL Female Christening: 20 JUL 1817 Lowther, Westmorland, England
ISABELLA CAMPBELL Female Christening: 18 JUN 1820 Lowther, Westmorland, England
DAVID CAMPBELL Male Christening: 11 DEC 1822 Lowther, Westmorland, England
ROBERT CAMPBELL Male Christening: 19 NOV 1825 Lowther, Westmorland, England
HANNAH CAMPBELL Female Christening: 21 DEC 1828 Lowther, Westmorland, England
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It would seem that these children are the children of my ancestor -Robert Campbell and his wife Mary ,formerly Fallowfield. Robert Campbell's age in the 1841 and 1851 census was 50 and 64 but the 1841 census is never that accurate with ages is it? Thank you so much for your help- much appreciated.
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I am willing to be corrected but I thought that the title" Duke "was conferred on John Campbell when he married Queen Victoria`s daughter Louise. That would be about 1870.
The title Marquess of Lorne is now the heir to the Dukedom`s title , It may have been the title before the dukedom was conferred. Yet I seem to think it was a Duke of Argyll who ordered the massacre at Glencoe.
Someone put me right please!
Viktoria.
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The Duke of Argyll was the father of the Marquis of Lorne who married Princess Louise. The Marquis became the 9th Duke of Argyll on the death of his father.
The first Duke of Argyll of the current creation was Archibald, born in 1658. The title of the Marquis of Lorne is one of the subsidiary titles of the Dukedom and the eldest son usually uses one of his father's other titles.
Nell
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Thankyou Little Nell. I was mistaken and am glad to have the correct facts.
One title I like is " Lord of the Isles"-- I think that is one of Prince Charles` titles( am I shooting my mouth off again?) but one such was Somerled, meaning Summer sailor-- Viking no doubt.
Lovely---- Somerled Lord of the Isles.
Thanks again. Viktoria.
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Hi Viktoria,
I rather like the title Somerled- Lord of the Isles too!
I have been told by others with the same results from their Y DNA tests that I belong to that 'Viking' group who are descended from Somerled.
All sounded wonderful until I 'googled' him & discovered that he is second only to Ghengis Khan for the number of descendants in the world. ::)
Oh, well, It sounded really imortant for a minute or two. :)
Milly Mac.
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Viktoria, it wasn't the Duke of Argyll ordered the Glencoe Massacre. There was a story that Neil Munro the author was also an illigitimate son of one of the dukes.
Skoosh.
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I did not know that rumour, however , I seem to remember that from a holiday many years ago Neil Munro was from Inverary.The bookshop was full of his novels.
It was a Campbell who carried out the order though, hence the animosity-- to put it mildly- between the MacDonalds and the Campbells.All to do with the lateness of some return or declaration of loyalty.The head of Clan MacDonald went to Inverary Castle.
The Campbells were graciously recieved by the MacDonalds in Glencoe whilst all the time they knew what their intentions towards tha Mc.Ds were.
It semes the order was partly rescinded and need not have been carried out but the MacDonalds were a bit well--- a law unto themselves, not for the English (Hanoverian) King at all .The Campbells were seeking advancement etc etc .Boot-licking.
Over simplified perhaps but the gist is there. I`d like to be corrected if anyone has more exact info. Viktoria.
Viktoria.
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I didn't know William of Orange was a Hanovarian :o
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There is plenty of information on the internet about the Glencoe massacre, which took place in 1692, well before any Hanoverian was on the throne.
Since it is a very emotive subject, it may well be that you should look at a number of sources for the information, e.g. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/scottishhistory/union/trails_union_glencoe.shtml
http://www.bayviewkentallen.co.uk/glencoemassacre.html
http://www.scotland-welcomes-you.com/glencoe_massacre.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/shortcuts/2012/feb/12/glencoe-massacre-campbell
http://www.tartanhen.co.uk/appin/glencoe.htm
And that's just for starters ;)
Many items show distinct bias, one way or t'other. I've no idea of the real facts, except that in 1692 something awful happened in Glencoe involving the Campbells and the MacDonalds and a lot of people died.
But we stray from the original topic subject: Robert Campbell born somewhere in Scotland who may be related to the Dukes of Argyll. ;)
Nell
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Yes I rushed in again didn`t I.! I know the Hanoverians were much later and I was talking with Culloden in my mind.No excuse except I`m proper poorly.
I,ve a very stiff neck, and can`t look at the screen through my bi-focals comfortably. it is agony !
I`m feeling sorry for myself, but I spent too long for two evenings last week. Serves me right.
Thanks for the info. Viktoria
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There has been a legend in my family for many years - long before I started tracing my family history 14 years ago- and I am still no nearer to finding if the legend is true. My 3 x great grandfather, Robert Campbell was born around 1787 "somewhere in Scotland". It is alleged that one of his ancestors was the daughter of the Duke of Argyll and she eloped with a coachman. The Duke was apparently so angry when he found that they had married that he tore the marriage entry out of the parish register. It sounds very unlikely that he would do this but that is how the story has been passed down for generations. A few of my family are very proud that they may be related to the Dukes of Argyll and I would love to find the truth. Has anyone any ideas?
Robert Campbell married in Lowther in Westmorland in 1813 and was one of the stone masons involved with the building of Lowther Castle. In the 1841/1851 census he is just listed as being born in Scotland. Very frustrating!!
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My name is John, same with me... my great grandmother was said to be the illegitimate daughter of the Duke of Argyll and a governess . Please contact me at my email address * and we can hook up to discuss. Maybe we are related which would somewhat prove our stories. I am getting a dna test to help. John
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I have created a tree for a friend. Her mother told her of a family member who ran off with the coachman. The daughter (Ella?) was with child. However, the coachman had passed. Married or not, don't know. This family group was believed to be from Argyle.
This family Duncan McDougal b1828, Scotland m Mary Macdonald, Scotland. Their children; Duncan, Peter, Catherine, Julia, Mary, Archibald, Archie, Hector, Donald Daniel, Anna, Barbara.
They emigratrated separately to Canada. One of their sons, Hector was born in Toronto. The family moved on through Minnesota to Chicago, Cook, Illinois.
Fact or fiction????
Another story, one of the ancestors married an indian princess.
The other side of the family is Amelia Carnes. Amelia married Hector McDougal/ll
Amelia's parents were: William Carnes b1835 Canada/Conn & Ella Livingston b 1834 Canada/Conn.
The children of William Carnes & Ella were; Amelia, Eva & Nellie.
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Follow up.
The Lord's daughter (possibly Ellen, Ella?) ran off with the coachman. The daughter was with child. The coachman had died.
The story did not include if this couple married or if the child was given the mother's maiden surname or fathers?
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Mmm. I also have a similar story. Janet Campbell one of my ancestors born in 1788 was supposedly a daughter of the Duke of Argyll and she is said to have run off with my ancestor Samuel Mccoll from Appin. He was a local schoolmaster and they went over to the Isle of Lismore to live and raise a lot of mccolls! I was contacted by someone on rootschat (unfortunanately i have lost the email due to a computer breakdown) who told me that in the 1920s the then Duchess of Argyll contacted one of Janet Campbells heirs and took her to Dunstaffnage Castle to show her around. No idea where all this came from but would love to find out as others do if theres any truth behind it. i was told the campbell lord disinherited his daughter \janet when she eloped
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Neil Munro, the author, was supposedly an illegitimate son of the duke of Argyll.
Skoosh.
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dkoosh which one,? arcjibald campbell isin my family linehe was son of colin campbell the chief of the clan, he had a son called john, who got his father to move his collection if trees down to ptincessalexandras' palace, which became kew gardens. so if you ever go there and see trees with the endin campbellii they were riginally broughtto his estate but not sure when, but I think they were moved about 1785 'ish
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Archibald Campbell, 3rd Duke of Argyll, 1st Earl of Ilay (June 1682 – 15 April 1761)Born at Ham House, Petersham, Surrey, he was the second son of Archibald Campbell, 10th Earl and 1st Duke of Argyll
"The Duke established an estate at Whitton Park, Whitton in Middlesex in 1722 on land that had been enclosed some years earlier from Hounslow Heath. The Duke was an enthusiastic gardener and he imported large numbers of exotic species of plants and trees for his estate. He was nicknamed the 'Treemonger' by Horace Walpole. On his death, many of these, including mature trees, were moved by his nephew, the third Earl of Bute, to the Princess of Wales' new garden at Kew. This later became Kew Gardens and some of the Duke's trees are still to be seen there to this day. The Duke of Argyll's Tea Tree is an imported shrub named after him which has become established in hedgerows in some parts of England."
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Archibald Campbell, 3rd Duke of Argyll, 1st Earl of Ilay (June 1682 – 15 April 1761)Born at Ham House, Petersham, Surrey, he was the second son of Archibald Campbell, 10th Earl and 1st Duke of Argyll
"The Duke established an estate at Whitton Park, Whitton in Middlesex in 1722 on land that had been enclosed some years earlier from Hounslow Heath. The Duke was an enthusiastic gardener and he imported large numbers of exotic species of plants and trees for his estate. He was nicknamed the 'Treemonger' by Horace Walpole. On his death, many of these, including mature trees, were moved by his nephew, the third Earl of Bute, to the Princess of Wales' new garden at Kew. This later became Kew Gardens and some of the Duke's trees are still to be seen there to this day. The Duke of Argyll's Tea Tree is an imported shrub named after him which has become established in hedgerows in some parts of England."
thanks larkspur, I thought it was his son john who got him to move them from argyll to the princess alexandras'estate at kew which was a palace i understand? she was danish before she married into our royal family? ws it her that thought up the roses made by disabled people, for the fallenin battle?
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Princess Alexandra, later Queen was married to Edward VII they never lived at Kew.
"The exotic garden at Kew Park, formed by Lord Capel John of Tewkesbury, was enlarged and extended by Augusta, Dowager Princess of Wales, the widow of Frederick, Prince of Wales. The origins of Kew Gardens can be traced to the merging of the royal estates of Richmond and Kew in 1772. William Chambers built several garden structures, including the lofty Chinese pagoda built in 1761 which still remains. George III enriched the gardens, aided by William Aiton and Sir Joseph Banks. The old Kew Park (by then renamed the White House), was demolished in 1802. The "Dutch House" adjoining was purchased by George III in 1781 as a nursery for the royal children. It is a plain brick structure now known as Kew Palace."
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I was told by my Grandmother that her father or Grandfather was to be the next Duke or Earl of Argyll. He came to America (I am assuming it may have been my G Grandfather Robert Campbell if not it was GG Grandfather Robert) early 1900s as my Grandmother was born in 1911 and her sister was a couple of years older. It has been told that when the Duke of Argyll (of that time period) passed away they located him here in the US and he gave up the title, etc. to stay in America. He did not want to go back. I know that my Great Grandfather Robert Campbell married my great Grandmother Edna Reiger. upon her getting pregnant. A shotgun wedding apparently. 2 children were born of this marriage Ruby Ellen(grandmother), and Jewel. They were divorced and he remarried and lived in illinois near Chicago. There were 2 or three children by that marriage one of the boy's name was "Buck" I believe . But his birthname was also Robert . but that is all that I know about him I have been searching for any information about the title going to a cousin around the time that my G Grandfather decided to stay here in the states. If there is any list of the people who held the title I would appreciate you to contact me please
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have you tried wikipeadia sometimes lists parts of family trees as it did with levison gower family
best of luck
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This is the 13th (current) Duke, and his lineage.
http://www.thepeerage.com/p261.htm