RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: Johnner Kid on Monday 13 June 11 13:25 BST (UK)
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While Assisting a friend with her research we are puzzled by a placename in the Langholm area. The IGI list a place called OBERDOLLYLAND. The OPR however does not. The combined image snip shows what we mean.
Groome’s and Rev Wilson’s Gazetteers of Scotland do not record anything remotely like the name given. A checking of the 1828 Crawford map of Dumfriesshire and later OS maps draw a blank.
Question: Is there such a place? Any suggestions?
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;D As usual these are NOT extracted records they have been submitted by members of the LDS church. (Looks like someone had a weird sense of humour! :P)
It doesn't appear on the updated version which are extracted from records held by SP.
https://www.familysearch.org/
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/welcome.aspx
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Although only patron submissions, there must be some element of truth in the place.
Here's the entry for John Lyttle, son of John Lyttle - baptised 28th March 1675.
Haven't found the place yet. There are quite a few wills/TTs for a John Little, merchant of Langholm :-\
gnu
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I'm not very good at reading that form of script but it looks as if we're looking for a 'Dollyland' where John ? , one of the witnesses, lived and the Lyttles lived at Over, Ober or even Upper Dxxxyland'
gnu
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Compared to the following "l" they look nothing like each other could they be "b"s??
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I'm not very good at reading that form of script but it looks as if we're looking for a 'Dollyland' where John ? , one of the witnesses, lived and the Lyttles lived at Over, Ober or even Upper Dxxxyland'
gnu
Ober/Uber = Upper, above or over
I think that's the key
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You wouldn't like to hazard a guess of the surname of the first witness, would you - a John <something> It might then be possible to chase him up.
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Used to be Longholm
http://www.geog.port.ac.uk/webmap/thelakes/html/topics/lk17376f.htm
Lord no! :o I'm struggling to make sense of it! :P How about posting on the Deciphering board, they are a whiz at this type of stuff?
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Here's another version - from the same page - maybe a relative:
Looks far more like Ober dolbyland on this one.
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Now that one looks more like Dolbyland!
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See if this helps translate it!.
Mike
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Not sure it helps tbh! :P
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There appears to be a running thread...... Langholm ... Longholme ..... Dobbyland-holme.
Hibee
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OK, thanks to gnu & fifer I'm convinced by the OPR primary source they highlighed that there is/was such a place in the Langholm area of Dumfriesshire with the name Over/Upper (Ober) Dolly (Dolby) Land. It is still niggling at me is I can't find it in any other document or map.
I know that DGFHS have published a booklet of the OPR deaths for Langholm. I was the actual volunteer researcher responsible for the editting and layout of that booklet and still have all my original notes on the placenames mentioned in text. There is just nothing listed that remotely looks like the placename in question.
Thanks emarbe for the very useful graphic.
My grateful thanks to ALL who took the time to have a look at this question.
Sy
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I've been rattling this round my brain most of today and I'm fairly convinced this was a family farm that was split in two (or more) There are loads of Dobbie's in and around Langholm I think could have been "Dobby's land" old spelling new name Dobbie.
Hope this helps! ;)
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From 1912 edition of "Langholm As It Was" page 889: Register of Baptisms of Staplegordon.
1677
Jan 21 The sd. day Mary Lyttle d. to John Lyttle in Long. Wit. William fforsyths in Longholme and William Brown yr
Surely Oberdollyland = Staplegordon
WalterC
Langholm
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Maybe and maybe not. The parish boundaries seem to have been reorganised around that time.
http://www.glendinning.name/history/staplegordon.pdf
However reading that article makes me suspect we should be looking further up into Eskdale for the Littles rather than close to Langholm/Arkinholm.
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sylvia
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http://www.langholm-online.co.uk/pages/content.asp?pageid=63
may have info
sylvia
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Well, I've been through all the old maps - as Sandy has - and I'm reading the Old Statistical Accounts for the third time just incase it's mentioned but so far zilch.
gnu
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hello
this should help or confuse even more
sylvia
http://maps.nls.uk/pont/view/?id=pont35
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Thanks, Sylvia. I think we've looked through that and all the other ones on the site but nothing found so far.
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we can but try
sylvia
http://www.nwrain.net/~little/index.htm
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Sylvia that's a fabulous map! The lettering does seem similar almost germanic in type.
A great find. No doubt I shall spend another afternoon punishing my eyesight! ;D
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If you like old maps, this site has most of them - over the years, I've found all sorts of farmsteads where my KKD families lived
http://maps.nls.uk/
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My thanks to you both. ;D
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http://www.scottishhandwriting.com/cmLFd.asp
thanks
sylvia
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Just wondering if there are any estate papers from the Buccleuch Estate that can be accessed easily. I've done a Google and have found some that might be worth investigating that have come up on a NAS catalogue search ( http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/ ) but :-\
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Drop a line to Langholm Archive Centre. http://www.langholmarchive.com/ They have folk on the ground with local knowledge.
Langholm Parish only came into existence in 1703, so my money is still on Staplegordon = OBERDOLLYLAND, especially with the transcription being word for word.
WalterC
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I've typed in Lyttle searching between 1538 and 1680 on SP there are 38 hits for Lyttle and 1 for Lytle showing all 38 plus the other in both Langholm and Staplegorton.
It must be around there somewhere, I'm still guessing the name is a farm, settlement (there are loads of those) or land.
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so my money is still on Staplegordon = OBERDOLLYLAND, especially with the transcription being word for word.
??? I don't understand how it's word for word ???
I think the O(riginal) P(oster) has lots of connections in the area and has tried hard to find the place
OK, thanks to gnu & fifer I'm convinced by the OPR primary source they highlighed that there is/was such a place in the Langholm area of Dumfriesshire with the name Over/Upper (Ober) Dolly (Dolby) Land. It is still niggling at me is I can't find it in any other document or map.
I know that DGFHS have published a booklet of the OPR deaths for Langholm. I was the actual volunteer researcher responsible for the editting and layout of that booklet and still have all my original notes on the placenames mentioned in text. There is just nothing listed that remotely looks like the placename in question.
Thanks emarbe for the very useful graphic.
My grateful thanks to ALL who took the time to have a look at this question.
Sy
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Langholm Parish only came into existence in 1703, so my money is still on Staplegordon = OBERDOLLYLAND, especially with the transcription being word for word.
Hope you haven't got your shirt on it! :P
Gnu has been all over the old map of the parish .......... zilch! I've been looking all day and likewise nothing.
OBERDOLLYLAND is not an available parish selection on the SP site, so therefore it is not a parish. It may be a place/settlement/farm but definitely not a known or recognised aka Staplegordon or Langholm parish.
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I too have scoured the old maps for this name, and have yet to come across another name beginning with "Ober". Is that not a German word for upper or over? In Scotland, I read, the similar word would be "Aber".
This one is a doozy alright! ;D
Deb
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I’m just amazed that my simple request has generated so much interest and so many posts. Thanks to everyone who has spent time considering this question and for all your helpful suggestions. I’m reasonably satisfied with the translation. Dolly, Dolby or Dobby are all feasable interpretations. I’m also satisfied to learn that I was wrong in initially suspecting the original IGI transcript submitter might have invented Oberdollyland.
The OPR sources are proof enough to me that such a place is/was located in the Langholm area or a neighbouring parish. The reference to Dolbyland Holm suggest to me that there were two farms, Upper/Over Dollyland and Dollyland-holm. [ Home or Main is what we would call today the home farm. Upper/Over/Nether are still found representing other farm leases with a larger estate.
Thanks again everyone – I’m now resorting to the old solution to genealogical brick walls.
Stopping looking and someday you or someone else will happen across the answer.
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Call off the genealogy bloodhounds WalterC has cracked it completely.
He emailed me a personal messaage while he was packing to go on holiday.
How generous is that !
He wrote:
"Langholm As It Was" has the transcriptions of the register of baptisms as an appendix.
The Jan 31 1675 birth entry is transcribed as:
The sd. day John Lyttle s. to William Lyttle in Overdowgland. Wit. John Bettie (sic) in Dowglandholme and John Scott yr.
and the March 28 1675 birth entry is transcribed as:
The sd. day John Lyttle s. to John Lyttle in Overdowgland. Wit. John Bettie (sic) in Dowglandholme and John Scott yr.
That matches my attempt above at a translation with the added bonus of the full name of the first witness is also recorded.
We were not quite done and dusted so I looked at the 1828 Crawford Map [ original copy owned by DGFHS so no copyright issue there].
I didn’t quite find OVER DOWGLAND or DOWGLAND HOLME but I found DOWGLEN in Westerkirk Parish. That is good enough for me -- unless somebody else says different !
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Now Dowglen makes more sense but is that not nearer the Kirk in Ewes Parish?
Definitely not in Staplegordon or Langholm parish. No I see it's in Westerkirk parish, I wonder if they didn't like the minister there! :P
Another puzzle solved well done!
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It's in Westerkirk
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0dr9/
Well, I looked at Douglencleugh on streetmap for ages and just couldn't reconcile the ll or lb and the u ::) Told you I was no good at that script.
Thank goodness for that - well done Walter :)
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http://www.geolocation.ws/v/W/4d43395b1d41c81fcf0091a7/burnfoot-plantation-looking-across/en
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1540995
A couple of modern pics for you.