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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Census Lookup and Resource Requests => Topic started by: Erica Rae on Saturday 18 June 11 11:21 BST (UK)
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Hello!
Please could someone do an 1841 census lookup for me for Robert Robertson. He was either a confectioner or coachman. I know he had at least 3 daughters:
Jane Robertson b. 1818
Sarah Robertson b. 1829
Emma Robertson b. 1835
Thank you very much!
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When and where was he born?
Where was he in 1841?
Need more information please.
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Hello,
Why do you think Robert Robertson was either a coachman or confectioner???
On his daughter Emma Robertson's marriage to William Walker his occupation is clearly given as "Confectioner"
The Groom's father (Robert Walker ) was a Coachman???
Suz
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this looks like Emma's baptism record
Brompton Holy Trinity
Kensington & Chelsea
1 mar 1835
Emma Robertson
parents Robert Robertson & Mary
address Brompton Row
Father's occupation Confectioner
I have a feeling Robert may have died before the 1841 census
Suz
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That looks like them!
Why do you think Robert died before 1841?
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this looks like Emma's baptism record
Brompton Holy Trinity
Kensington & Chelsea
1 mar 1835
Emma Robertson
parents Robert Robertson & Mary
address Brompton Row
Father's occupation Confectioner
I have a feeling Robert may have died before the 1841 census -but have no documented evidence yet.
Suz
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oops I have posted twice!!!
Can you tell me where Earah and Jane were born??
There is another Robert Robertson ((but with wife Sarah) -and his occupation is Sawyer/Carpenter having children abt same time and in same area as Robert Robertson wife mary (parents of Emma)
So we have to take care we find the correct family
There is in 1841 at the Royal Hospital Chelsea in a long list of people : Emma Cooper 15 Daughter of Master baker no
Asly Cooper 9 son of Master baker Y
Emma Robertson 5 step daughter Y
James Robertson stepson Y
HO107 688 16 718
there don't seem to be any parents -there are other Master bakers and schoolmistress -all kinds of people who obviously worked/lived there
???
Suz
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Oh boy!
Unfortunately, I don't. I worked out Jane and Sarah must be Emma's sister from the 1881 census where you found William Walker snr. Staying with his son, John Robert. There were 2 aunts in the same household.
I then cross referenced their married names against their maiden names and year of birth on FreeBMD and....wham!
I can tell you Jane married Thomas Collins in 1851 in Gateshead, and Sarah married Richard Clear in 1849 in Marylebone.
Does that help?
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EDIT: I don't think this is correct Sarah -and Jane isn't the Jane who married a Collins-see later posts!!!
Sorry -but Sarah's maiden name was not Robertson -so she wouldn't be Emma's sister -she was a widow when she married Richard Clear
Marriage st Marylebone
23 Jun 1849
Richard Clear of full age bachelor Shoe maker of St Marylebone father Richard Clear occ Shoe maker
Sarah Robertson of full age Widow of St marylebone father William Mather occ Boot Closer
witnesses William mather and Caroline Mann
Caroline made her mark
Richard Clear made his mark
Suz
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this looks like Sarah's first marriage -although it dioesn't give much info
Marriage St marylebone
Sarah Mather spinster of this parish
George Robertson bachelor of this parish
married by banns
witnesses can't read names
this could be them in 1841
Thatched Cottages St James Westminster
George Robertson 30 Boot M No
Sarah 28 no
both born out of county
HO107 736 3 28 050
Suz
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and I don't think "Aunt" Sarah married Richard Clear -or "Aunt" Jane Collins married Thomas Collins
as in 1881 census I noted both Aunts were U =unmarried
They are unmarried in 1861/71/81/91
I'll look for them in 1851
Suz
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Thanks Suz!
I'll correct the info - thank you so much for verifying everything for me!
I would hate to have incorrect info :)
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It looks pretty certain the neither of the Aunts were ever married!!!
1841
St Mary St Southampton Hants
Charles Clear 37 Butcher
Ann 37
SARAH 15
Maria 12
William 10
Edwin 8
John 6
Eliza 3
Charles 6mth
all b in county
HO107 417 35 4
1851
????back St St Marylebone
Charlotte Jones head W 61 Plaister manufacturer Hampshire
Jane Collins neice U 33 assistant Epsom Surrey
Sarah Clear neice U 25 asst Bramshaw Wilts
Maria Clear neice asst 22 Eling Hants
HO107 1489 21 35
1861
Lackbrook? St Westminster
Charlotte Jones head W 72 Courts Elastic? Manufacturer Headley hants
Jane Collins neice U 43 assistant Epsom Surrey
Sarah Clear neice U 35 assistant Bramshaw wilts
Ann Rawlingson 15 neice assistant Yanton Bucks
Martha Turnbull servant 18 Portsmouth hants
RG9 51 27 12
1871
Lackbrook? St St John Westminster
Charlotte Jones Head W 81 Court Plaster manufacturer Headley Hants
Jane Collins neice U 53 ditto Bramshaw Willts
Annie Clear neice dittoSouthampton hants
Ellen Summers servant 17 London
RG10 123 110 38
1881 in previous post (Walkers)
1891
101 Hangwynne St Lambeth
Sarah Clear head U 59 Court Plaiseter maunufacturer
Jane Collins Boarder U 73 Epsom Surrey
Mary A Blake Boarder W 49 Living on own means Lambeth
RG12 409 78 14
Suz
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so we now need to find where these names fit in -and still need Emma's siblings??
Suz
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Yes, we do!
Can't think of anything....? Assuming they were John Robert's blood aunts? Why else would they be called aunt....?
A new mystery! Gotta solve this one too!
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Although the 1881 census describes Sarah Clear & Jane Collins as John Robertson Walker's aunts I think a little liberty has been taken with the term. The 1881 census describes John's occupation as Court Plaster manufacturer. Court Plasters were the equivalent then of the plasters that you apply to your skin if you cut yourself. In the 1851 to 1871 censuses Sarah Clear/Flear and Jane Collins appear in the household of an elderly lady called Charlotte Jones, also a Court Plaster manufacturer, where they are described as nieces. A number of different nieces, that are otherwise unrelated, pass through the household. I think that calling them nieces was a way to divert attention from a household of single women. It looks like John took over the business and inherited the staff but, owing to age, called them aunts instead of nieces.
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I have uncovered some more evidence in the mystery of Sarah Clear & Jane Collins being described as Aunts in the 1881 census. As I wrote before, as well as appearing in John Robertson Walker's household in 1881, Sarah & Jane also appeared in the household of Charlotte Jones in earlier censuses alongside other women, where they are described as nieces. I thought that might be a subterfuge but it turns out to be close to the truth.
The women that stayed with and probably worked for Charlotte according to the censuses were:
- Jane Collins
- Sarah Clear
- Maria Clear
- Ann Rawlinson
The following indented lines show the relationships. Each indentation represents a previous generation. In brackets you can see the birthdate and FamilySearch code. The last line is the latest, common ancestor of all the people of interest, Charles Collens & Mary Boxall of Headley, Hampshire.
Ellen Clear (1839, L1FX-JPG)
Daniel Clear (1809, 9SZ1-K3Z) & Sarah Jane Barnes (1813, 9SZ1-K32)
Maria Clear (1828, 98M2-NJH)
Sarah Clear (1826, L1VF-6XL)
Charles Clear (1804, MJYV-8HG) & Ann Arnold (1804, KG3Y-SB2)
Charles Clear (1778, LWCS-9W2) & Ann Collens (1781, K24M-3SB)
Ann Rawlinson (1845, L1KZ-BJB)
William Rawlinson (1816, MSB6-RJF) & Maria Collins (1821, MSNK-S2R)
Jane Collins (1818, MD1J-CQV)
Edward Collens (1784, MJYZ-K6C) & Anne Fullrick (1785, LJX8-ZCK)
Charlotte Jones (nee Collens, 1790, KVBS-8RH)
Charles Collens (1742, K2WB-XLH) & Mary Boxall (1747, K2WB-XL6)
- Charlotte Jones, the old lady that originally ran the Court Plaster manufacturer, is a daughter of Charles Collens & Mary Boxall. Unfortunately, I can't figure out who she married to become a Jones but presumably it contributed to her having a nice address in London.
- Jane Collins is a daughter of Charlotte's brother, Edward Collens, so she is a proper niece.
- Sarah Clear and Maria Clear are sisters and they are grandaughters of Charlotte's sister Ann Collens. Is great-nieces the proper term?
- Ann Rawlinson is a grandaughter of Charlotte's brother, Edward Collens, via Maria Collins making her another great-niece. She is also a niece of Jane Collins, Maria being Jane's sister. Ann is also a second cousin of Sarah Clear and Maria Clear.
So, niece only accurately describes the Jane Collins relationship. The other three women should be described as great-nieces. Great-niece may not be allowable on the census form so niece would be a reasonably close approximation.
And now we have a real payoff. A big surprise. In 1863, Ellen Clear (top line but not yet mentioned) married a toff, Robert Wilson, complete with an entry in Burke's Families. He died five years later, leaving her as a widow with 4 young children and another on the way (and only four servants to help). In 1882, only a year after the 1881 census, she re-married John Robertson Walker, the very same man that started this whole Aunt business. She was 43 and he was 23. From the indented names above you can see that Sarah Clear and Ellen were cousins. The relationship between Jane Collins and Ellen is more twisted. Maybe somebody can tell me the proper nomenclature for it.
Who did John meet first, Ellen or Sarah & Jane. If it was Ellen first, did she suggest that John get into the Court Plaster business? If John took over the business first did Sarah & Jane then introduce him to Ellen?
The Court Plaster business didn't continue for much longer. John became a church minister in the mid-1980s. In 1891, Sarah & Jane were listed as retired Court Plaster manufacturers and living together in Lambeth only 400m away from the house they'd shared with John 10 years earlier. It looks like Jane died in 1893 and Sarah in 1897. They had been together for around 50 years.
TL;DR; The use of Aunt as a description in the 1881 census was as I suggested before - an extension of a previous practice. There was no blood relationship between John Robertson Walker and Sarah & Jane at the time. Sarah & Jane were 33 & 41 years older than him. It would be ridiculous to describe them as nieces. I don't know why he didn't just describe them as employees. Maybe the women themselves were not used to being regarded as employees. However, the following year he married Ellen and they did become officially related.
Phew, that was a lot of work. Nearly 4 whole days. The Collens and Fullrick families were unbelievably prolific. I've merged hundreds of records to obtain this result. Is somebody now going to tell me that this was all worked out seven years ago?