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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: eharkin1 on Monday 27 June 11 22:54 BST (UK)
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Hi there
very new to this and was hoping that someone could help me find out a name. My 2x great grandmothers name is preventing me from going any further with her side of the tree. Her marriage certificate says Betsy Ryland (her maiden name), her census in 1901 says B King, and her 1911 census says Bessie king and her death certificate says Bessie King.
Yet when i do a search for either a Betsy Ryland or Bessie Ryland for rotherhithe areas for her birth i come up with nothing. I know her father is called Thomas Ryland as he is on the marriage certficate.
I feel this census with the most complete name for her is my biggest clue but i cant tell what it says.
She is third from the top underneath her husband George KIng
Can anyone help me with this??
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Could it possibly be Benjamina. In Scotland male names are frequently turned into female, Angusina, Donaldina, Murdina (Murdo). There is a Benjamina King in West Bromwich in 1881 census, born 1857.
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Firstly weclome to rootschat eharkin1. :)
A few thoughts:
Sometimes father's names are 'made up' and put on marriage certificates to appear respectable if illegitimate, so Thomas may not actually have been her father.
There may also have been a remarriage and she took stepfather's name, or some other complex scenario.
Although Bessie says she was born in Rotherhithe she may have been born/registered elsewhere - have you broadened the search for her birth to neighbouring areas?
What does she say is her place of birth on the 1901 and 1911 censuses?
Is she consistent with her age on each census? Have you checked for variations of surname as well as first name?
What year did she marry? Do you have her in the censuses prior to 1881, perhaps with her family?
Some births weren't registered.
Ancestry have transcribed her name as Benjamin - and it looks like Benjamin on the census, but I think shanghaipanda is probably correct and it should be Benjamina ...
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I think the marriage is (via FreeBMD):
Marriages Mar 1888
King George West Ham 4a 1
Ryland Betsy W. Ham 4a 1
(fits with age of older child on the 1891)
and I think Rotherhithe would have been in RD 'St Olave Southwark' at the time of her birth. This would be Surrey, not Kent.
Possible St Olave Southwark births(??):
Births Jun 1868
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BATTLE Bessie Ellen R St Olave 1d 41
BODGER Benjamin Green St. Olave 1d 35
REES Benjamin St. Olave 1d 36
Births Sep 1868
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CAMPBELL Benjamin Guy St. Olave 1d 29
NICHOLS Beatrice Elizabeth St. Olave 1d 38
Births Dec 1868
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HUNT Benjamin John St. Olave 1d 34
Births Mar 1869
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WEEDEN Benjamin St. Olave 1d 40
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Hi all,
firstly thanks for the welcome and thanks for your answers.
I have looked at the following queries and got myself even more confused as the info i have doesnt pinpoint a definete family/birthname.
She says her birth place is Surrey Rotherhithe in 1911 and 1901 so there is no change there.
She is consistent with her age in all census too.
She married in 1888 which is the correct entry as found by JonathanC and she was 19 and a Spinster.
I did consider illegitimate but she states her father as Thomas Ryland but also has an Emma Ryland signing as a witness with a George Daniels.
I cannot place her in a census prior to her marriage as there isnt a Thomas with an Emma in West Ham, Essex.
I have found a Thomas Ryland (A Coal agent) with a Betsy Ryland in 1871 census in Liverpool, and then with her mother in 1881 under Rylance.
Thomas is not there in 1881 but i cannot place him anywhere down south in West Ham to prove the link with his job to her future husbands job as a Gas Stoker.
Also there is not Emma Ryland in that family.
Im soo confused and was hoping this name might have shed some light.
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Hi,
What was her fathers occupation on her marriage certificate?
Mo
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hi there
Her marriage certificate states he is a Stoker with Foreman in brackets underneath, which is where the link with the family in liverpool ties in.
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Hmm! This may be nothing, but I may as well post it as I am becoming quite fond of them:
In 1889 an Emma Ryland married George Ernest Holmes in West Ham
1891 census has:
35 Edward Street, West Ham
Thomas Ryland, Head, Widower, 54, Gas Labourer, Danbury Essex
George E Holmes, Head, Mar, 22, Gas Labourer, Plaistowe Essex
EMMA Holmes, Wife, Mar, 22, ROTHERHITHE Surrey
Alice Holmes, Daur, 10 months, Plaistowe Essex
Can`t find Thomas and Emma before this - yet
Mo
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Thomas RYLAND looks to have died Mar qtr 1899, West Ham, 4a 34, aged 61
Ian C
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That looks promising Mo. ;)
I did have a fairly thorough look at censuses yesterday, but like you eharkin1, I couldn't find a Thomas with a daughter with any of those first names in the right area ... you'd expect her to be able to be found as a 2 year old with parents in the 1871 census.
There are a lot of Rylands (and variations in Lancashire) .... ;)
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Hi,
I have started to think he was in hiding from somebody ::) However, Ryland is open to various mistranscriptions especially if the person couldn`t write so it was based on dialect etc.
This is all I can come up with to date based on the Thomas in the 1891 census born Danbury - don`t laugh ;D ;D There is a certain logic in comparing the 1861 to the 1871 especially as son William was born Strood which is where the "Riley" family were living in 1861.
1851
Alms Houses, Parish of Danbury, Essex
Thomas Rylen, 17, Ag Lab, Woodham
30th August, 1857
A Thomas Riley marries Mary Ann Woolnough at St. Marys Church, Chediston. Suffolk
1861
Gun Lane, Strood, Kent
Thomas Riley. Head. Mar, 27, Brickmakers Labourer, Danbury Essex
Mary Ann, Wife, Mar, 22, Suffolk Chediston
Ellen, Daur, 2, Suffolk Halesworth
1871
2 Swan Lane, Rotherhithe, Surrey
William Smith ???, Head, Mar, 37, Labourer, Danbury Essex (I told you not to laugh. It could be an enumerator error)
Mary Ann, Wife, Mar, 32, Suffolk Halesworth
Helen, Daur, 12, Suffolk Halesworth
William, Son, 9, Kent Strood
Emma, Daur, 5, Surrey Rotherhithe
Betsey, Daur, 3, Surrey, Rotherhithe
Martha, Daur, 1, Surrey Rotherhithe
I still can`t find any of them on the 1881 census ::)
Death of Mary Ann Ryland registered Sept. Qtr. 1890 West Ham age 51
Mo
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wow, thanks so much for your info and help everyone. Thats great.
Im gonna use this info with Emma Holmes to order her marriage certificate and see if betsy is a witness for her and wether thomas is listed as her father.
Also the thomas ryland info is fantastic, im not quite sure what to order first to see if it links in correctly.
Any suggestions on what would be best to order first? I wonder if betsy is registered under a different surname at birth??
Once again, huge thanks!
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Hi,
Emmas marriage is on the new family search:
https://www.familysearch.org/
13th January, 1889 Canning Town
George Ernest Holmes, 21 Father George Holmes
Emma Ryland, 20, Father Thomas Ryland
The only thing I don`t like is Emmas age, but she might have been a tad economical with the truth. Or it could be a different family that also appear to be missing on the census!
Mo
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Hi,
I keep wondering if Emmas age was incorrect on the 1871 census. The only births I could come up with using first names or various surnames in Rotherhithe turned up these two:
Betsey Riley and Emma Riley both on the same page for Rotherhithe registration district December Qtr 1867 Volume 1a page 669. :-\ It may explain why there were both roughly the same age in later census, but I would be guessing and I don`t want to lead you down the wrong path. I can`t find a death for either before 1871 nor a suitable "Riley" census entry later. We also have to remember that it wasn`t actually a finable offence not register a birth before 1875, Before that date it was up to the Registrar to seek them out.
Going cross eyed,
Good luck
Mo
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hi there
sorry it has taken me so long to reply. I have finally received the birth certificates for both girls.
Turns out they were twins!!.
Mary Ann Woolnough is their mother and thomas riley (a gas stoker) the father.
It looks like the family were possibly illiterate as the mother signed both certificates with an X.
Im wondering if the father was iliterate, could that be why the name was william smith?
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Hi,
Thank you so much for letting us know the outcome. They certainly gave us the runaround. I don`t think we will ever know why he was listed as William Smith. He certainly knew that his surname was Ryland and not Riley when it came to the childrens marriages and his wife`s death.
I still wonder where they got to on the 1881 census.
Thanks again,
Mo