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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Xotan on Friday 06 August 10 20:59 BST (UK)
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With all the help I have received here previously, the details on the family tree are filling in quite nicely, so I am very appreciative .
This time I am looking for information on my g.g.g.grandfather, Peter Monks. b. 1826 d. 1884 and buried in Glasnevin.
His first wife was Anne - surname unknown, but she is my ancestress. Her son Nicholas was born in 1850, so presumably they married about a year or two before that
His second wife was also Anne - Hyland.
Again, I have no date of birth for Anne Hyland. However, the story in the family is that her father was manager of the Gaiety Theatre in Dublin. She died in either 1889 or 1890 and was buried in Peter's grave (with his first wife!).
The Glasnevin record on the net shows a burial in respect of an Anne Monks in 1889 and another in 1890. I have no idea which one refers to my family. However, I can find no record for the burial of Peter in 1884. Perhaps they have not digitised back that far yet.
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Peter's & Anne's son, Nicholas, born in 1850, married Mary Lister (or Lester) b.1851 d. 1915 who was the daughter of a Church of Ireland father, but she was brought up as a Roman Catholic. The presupposes her mother was Catholic. Mary's first cousins were the Cahills of Wellington Quay. In my late father's notes there is a strange comment that they were "opticians to the Popes". For a while I had visions of spectacles travelling back and forth to Rome, as though there were no eye doctors there. Then it dawned on me that this might in fact refer to a family called Pope.
I googled Cahills Opticians and sure enough they were on Wellington Quay - may still be???
Anyway, Mary Lister as the sole wife of my g.g.grandfather Nicholas Monks, is my ancestress, so I would also like to find out anything I can about her and her family.
Thanks for all help.
David Monks
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the last time I looked at the Glasnevin site, they had only digitised back to 1890.
I'm waiting for 1880s, myself, before I trot off to buy certain death certs!
eadaoin
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Thanks Eadaoin. I was hoping that they might have done the 1880s before I come to Ireland. Seems unlikely. :'(
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Glasnevin's record are now goiung back top 1870
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Thanks Greggie.
I was able to get my g/g/g/grandfather's burial details. 5 in the grave, and some are new names! More investigation to be done. Also there is the big question as to where they fit on the tree.
David
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Hi there I have a Catherine Monks who was born in 1830 I believe in Dublin, although I am not 100% sure on this. She married Joseph Cummings born 1833 Ireland and their first son Thomas Born: 1851 and Eliza Born: 1849 were both born in Dublin Ireland, they came to England arond 1852 to whitechapel Middlesex, they have a son Peter Monks who was born 1864 Whitechapel middlesex could there be some connection between our trees I wonder? Catherine's father was Peter Monks from Ireland.
To be honest I am not having any luck with Irish records and havn't a clue where to begin to look.. so hope there is some connection here.
Thanks Lynda
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Hi there I have a Catherine Monks who was born in 1830 I believe in Dublin, although I am not 100% sure on this. She married Joseph Cummings born 1833 Ireland and their first son Thomas Born: 1851 and Eliza Born: 1849 were both born in Dublin Ireland, they came to England arond 1852 to whitechapel Middlesex, they have a son Peter Monks who was born 1864 Whitechapel middlesex
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Catherine's father was Peter Monks from Ireland.
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Do you have any idea where in Dublin e.g City, county or suburbs ?
You will need to check parish records for the baptisms and marriage and to do this you need to know the family religion and where they lived - ideally the parish.
Monk was a reasonably common surname at that time - especially in the City and parts of the North county.
What do the later census returns show for Thomas or Eliza's place of birth ?
Later census returns can give a more detailed place of birth which might help start a search for their baptisms.
Shane
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The Cahill "opticians to the Popes" rang a bell with me as I have Cahill ancestry but not this family. An advert in an old book I have published 1929 to commemorate 100 years of Catholic Emancipation entitled 'Catholic Emancipation Centenary Record' has
PARTICK CAHILL, Optician to His Holiness Pope Pius X1. (By special appointment).
13 and 15 Wellington Quay, Dublin
Phone 2015 Miss C. K. Cahill, Proprietress.
The advert includes the elaborate Papal Crest.
Good luck,
J.T.A.
With all the help I have received here previously, the details on the family tree are filling in quite nicely, so I am very appreciative .
This time I am looking for information on my g.g.g.grandfather, Peter Monks. b. 1826 d. 1884 and buried in Glasnevin.
His first wife was Anne - surname unknown, but she is my ancestress. Her son Nicholas was born in 1850, so presumably they married about a year or two before that
His second wife was also Anne - Hyland.
Again, I have no date of birth for Anne Hyland. However, the story in the family is that her father was manager of the Gaiety Theatre in Dublin. She died in either 1889 or 1890 and was buried in Peter's grave (with his first wife!).
The Glasnevin record on the net shows a burial in respect of an Anne Monks in 1889 and another in 1890. I have no idea which one refers to my family. However, I can find no record for the burial of Peter in 1884. Perhaps they have not digitised back that far yet.
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Peter's & Anne's son, Nicholas, born in 1850, married Mary Lister (or Lester) b.1851 d. 1915 who was the daughter of a Church of Ireland father, but she was brought up as a Roman Catholic. The presupposes her mother was Catholic. Mary's first cousins were the Cahills of Wellington Quay. In my late father's notes there is a strange comment that they were "opticians to the Popes". For a while I had visions of spectacles travelling back and forth to Rome, as though there were no eye doctors there. Then it dawned on me that this might in fact refer to a family called Pope.
I googled Cahills Opticians and sure enough they were on Wellington Quay - may still be???
Anyway, Mary Lister as the sole wife of my g.g.grandfather Nicholas Monks, is my ancestress, so I would also like to find out anything I can about her and her family.
Thanks for all help.
David Monks
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Hello Mr J.T. Arthur.
All I can say is Good Heavens! I am dumbstruck!
Certainly I owe my late father an apology for ever having doubted his word. OTOH, it is the most unlikely thing. Who would have imagined such a thing? I may yet write to the Vatican and ask them if they can clarify some more.
In the meanwhile, might I ask if you would kindly scan the page of the book, please and post on this thread?. It would be a wonderful item to include in the gathering data. I would be most grateful, and I would be delighted to vindicate my father to the wider family.
BTW, can anyone say if Cahills are still in business? I do seem to remember an opticians premises just to the west of Merchants Arch/Halfpenny bridge, but that would have been when I was a kid. I used to travel to school across the city and the 51 bus had its terminus at Aston Quay.
Once again, JTA, many thanks for that information, and if possible I would look forward to a posting of the advert.
David.
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Hello David,
See link below, which includes another old advert, see also 1911 census for Patrick Cahill's occupation.
http://ccalireland.com/Graphics/database-images-201002/religion_related/slides/spectacles_for_the_pope.html
Will scan page and post it for you. My Cahills came from Co Kildare going back 200 years and Tipperary before that.
J.T.A.
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David,
Here is another mention, dated 1903. He must have been quite old by 1929. You will probably find his obit in several papers.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=NZT19031105.2.19
J.T.A.
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a few details following on from J.T.A's clue re the address for Cahills :
Wellington Quay
1894
13 Mrs. Elizabeth Keary, optician
(also a number of solicitors listed at the address)
1914
13 Patrick Cahill (Ltd), optician to H.H. Pope Pius X
optician to Ophthalmic hospital,
optician & philosophical instrument maker
and at 4 Sth. Anne St
" Patrick J. Cahill, optician - res. Ard na Griena, Rathmines
(also a number of solicitors listed at the address)
1927
13 Patrick Cahill, optician to H.H. Pope Pius XI
" Patrick Keary-Cahill, optician - res. 72 Northumberland Rd
" W.D. Coyne, solicitor
14 A. Bassi & Co., religious statue & frame manuf.
res. 33 Upr Rathmines
15 Patrick Keary-Cahill, optician
1938
13-14 Patrick Cahill, optician to H.H. Pope Pius XI
14 A. Bassi & Co., religious statue & frame manuf.
1949
13 Patrick Cahill, optician
14 A. Bassi & Co., religious statue & frame manuf.
The Clarence Hotel is at number 6,7 & 8
1958
13 Newbold & Co., optical manfact.
" Walter Nash & Co., printers
(src Thom's Directories)
Shane
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Patrick's family seem to have been Gaelic scholars. 1901 census is a translation in English from the original where he is named Patrick Keary: in 1911 he is named Patrick Keary Cahill. You may get a copy of the original census page in Irish from the National Archives.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003778614/
Good luck,
J.T.A.
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I have been away for a while and needed to do some sorting out of material on my return., so apologies for my silence over the past month or so.
The amount of interest and help that you have all shown on this thread is very much appreciated, and I thank all contributors most sincerely. I hope you will be patient with me when I come back with more questions, as I inevitably will.
I hope all your projects are going well!
Sincerely,
David.
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It's a while since I have written here about the Monks Family. The holiday season, then flu, and the need to get written up what information has been so kindly been furnished have kept me occupied.
At present I am trying to tease out a number of matters in connection with my gt gt grandfather, Peter Monks, b.1826, d. 1884.
Peter was married twice. His first wife was born ca. 1819 and died in 1870. Her given name was Anne, but her surname is unknown. This is unfortunate, as we are descended from her. Their son, Nicholas, was born in 1850 which means that Peter and Anne would have been married perhaps two or three years previously. I have tried Irish Genealogy but have not had any success.
Peter, at least in his latter years, lived at 55 Kirwan Street Cottages and his funeral took place from there.
Anne was uried from 89 Phibsborough Road in 1870, so presumably the move to Kirwan Street Cottages took place after her death.
After his first wife's death, peter married again - another Anne! This time we know her surname, Hyland. But that is all. She survived him, dying, I believe, ca 1890. I am not aware if there was any issue from the Monks/Hyland union.
The issues, then are:
Peter's first wife's surname?
How, when, why did Peter move to Kirwan Street Cottages, much smaller than Phibsborough Road?
Did Anne Hyland continue living there after Peter's death?
Where is Anne Hyland buried?
Can anyone help please?
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I am trying to get some information of the two wives of Peter Monks (1824 - 1884).
Peter was born in Tubbergregan/Garristown, Co. Dublin. His eldest child (Nicholas) was born in 1850, so his marriage to his first wife Anne (surname unknown) would have taken place in 1848 or 1849, most likely. They lived in 89 Phibsborough Road. Anne died in 1870.
Peter remarried. I don't have a date for this. His second wife was Annne Hyland. According to my father's notes her father was manager of the Gaiety Theatre, but I think there may be a problem with this from the timing point of view. He died in 1884 and at that time they were living in 55 Kirwan Street Cottages - a bit of a oscial come-down, perhaps.
Anne Hyland survived her husband and died in 1890.
Can anyone help with
ferretting out the date of Peter's first marriage to Anne and her surname
a date for his second marriage
.
Did she remain on in Kirwan Street Cottages?
I would be grateful for any help.
Thanks Xotan/David
Moderator Note : Topic merged with one of the previous threads on the same family
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1/ ferretting out the date of Peter's first marriage to Anne and her surname
2/ a date for his second marriage
To have a reasonable chance of locating, and verifying, the correct marriage I would think you would first need to know Anne's maiden name. Have you located baptism details for son Nicholas ?
I see only one marriage for a Peter Monks on the BMD index around the right time (i.e. between 1870 and 1880) - but there's no cross-match to anyone with the surname Hyland..
Name: Peter Monks
Registration district: Dublin North
Event type: Marriage
Year: 1874
Volume : 2 / Page : 635
Shane
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Hello Shane, and thanks for your response. I have been into Irish Genealogy site and could not come up with anything. I suspect that the parish in question may be St. Mary's - the pro cathedral. I can't be sure as they seem to have moved around a bit. Not surprising as he was establishing himself in the city, having moved in from Tubbergregan/Garristown.
Peter's first wife Anne is a mystery, although she is the family's ancestress. We do not have her surname and I didn't gain anything from Irish Genealogy, which I find an infuriating site. I don't believe I have ever recovered anything from it. Anyway... I've tried it again using parameters for Peter and the two Annes, but to no avail. I am, however, greatly interested as to where you found the reference to Peter Monks. Obviously there is a hole in my information on research resources. Also I am somewhat limited in that some sources require personal attendance - not possible from France. I have, however, managed to get her date of death and age at that time from Glasnevin. She was 51, and died on 9th October 1870. That would give a year of birth of 1819, +/- 1 year. I've been unable to come up with anything else.
The second wife has always been known as Anne Hyland. Given the reference in my father's papers to her father's connection with the Gaiety, I wrote to the theatre, but never received a response, sadly. But as I said, I think the Gaiety didn't open its doors until later, which would present a timeline problem.
Anyway, thanks again for your help. If any other information can be gleaned I'd be glad to learn.
Xotan/David
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The marriage reference came from the BMD Index on familysearch - the link is included in the introduction topic...
Since it's the only Peter Monks marriage listed for that timeframe it seems like it would be worth checking out.. you might be able to connect it (or rule it out), by checking the address, occupation or father's details
see : Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html)
Shane
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...
We do not have her surname and I didn't gain anything from Irish Genealogy, which I find an infuriating site. I don't believe I have ever recovered anything from it. ...
The IrishGenealogy site works well, I think the problem is the lack of clues for the marriage i.e. the who (which Anne) where and when - the website concentrates on city records so if they married in a county parish, e.g. somewhere between Garristown and the city, then they would not be included.
Not knowing Anne's maiden surname is a big disadvantage, as you would have no way to confirm, or rule out any possible marriages - there could be more than one Peter Monks with a wife named Anne at that time. That's why I'd try for the sons baptism first.. in the hope that it should show a maiden name for her, and also give you a location for the family at the time
you didn't mention a denomination for your Monks ancestors - but if they were RC then you need to check for Christian names in Latin also - e.g. Petrus
Shane
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Thanks again Shane.
RC, yes. So Latin is the Key! I should have thought of this. I'll lift my interdict on Irish Genealogy for the moment then. :)
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I see only one marriage for a Peter Monks on the BMD index around the right time (i.e. between 1870 and 1880) - but there's no cross-match to anyone with the surname Hyland..
Name: Peter Monks
Registration district: Dublin North
Event type: Marriage
Year: 1874
Volume : 2 / Page : 635
It could be worth looking at the hard-copy indexes, if you're in Dublin, Xotan, or if someone would have a look for you ....
I had two marriages where I couldn't find a match on familysearch (checked several times all variations)- I had justabout decided that they didn't marry, but when I checked the actual indexes, there was the other half for both marriages.
when I got home, I rechecked familysearch with the exact details, and the two husbands are NOT there.
(I'm still using the old site, as my computer won't cope with the new one )
eadaoin
edit: 4 July: I looked at the microfilm indexes Marriages 1874
I didn't find Anne Hyland/Hiland to match
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There are also a few marriages that do not have both bride and groom entered correctly in the original index books.. presumably some sort of mistake in the manual indexing, or compiling the books.
In the days before the familysearch Index I located a possible match for the marriage of a gt-grandparent, but couldn't find anything for his wife. I know her full name and spent ages checking .. with no luck. Luckily it not a common surname, and the area seemed to fit so I just ordered the cert based on one partner - and there was the bride on the cert... name spelt as expected.
Shane
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Hello Eadaoin & Shane,
Thanks for your further help.
I am afraid it is not possible for me to make a personal check as I live in the extreme south of France - I sometimes go to Spain for lunch. :) So I am a long way away. I think the best I can do is to try get someone in Dublin to check it out for me.
Can you tell me where the Indexes/registers are now kept. There have been administrative changes in Ireland since I left, getting o for 10 years ago, so I am not sure of their location. I will be in Dublin briefly in September, but time will be at a premium and I may not be able to fit in a search personally... Also I wanted, if possible, to have a look at wills in the National Archive, and I was dedicating a morning to that.
Shane, apropos the Latin suggestion, I have been trying the Department of Arts, Heritage etc site 'Irish Genealogy', and I still draw a blank in both Latin and English. I assume that is the site you were referring to.
I agree that the birth of Nicholas (II) Monks in 1850 is a possible/the most likely key to the maiden name of Peter's wife. Alas, I fear this is a brick wall.
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Civil records are held by the GRO and you can order these by post from the head office in Roscommon. You can search the BMD Index online for the references required to avoid paying search fees.
If you visit the GRO Research room (Abbey St, Dublin) you can access the Index books to search for possible matches. The details on these were used to create the BMD Index on FamilySearch. There's no direct access to the registers - you have to order the certs to see the details.
The majority of pre 1922 wills were lost during the civil war.
Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html)
Ordering Certs from GRO Roscommon (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433040.0.html)
Shane
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Hello Shane,
Sorry I am a little late getting back to you with my thanks for your last posting and the links therein.
Much appreciated!
Grand merci
David.
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I am still worrying away at the Anne Hyland-Monks mystery. So far we have
- a Peter Monks marrying in 1874, but no cross match to Hyland.
- a claim by my late father that Anne is buried in Peter's grave, but not named on the headstone
- Glasnevin record does NOT show her in his grave, therefore is she buried in another grave or elsewhere?
- There are a burials in Glasnevin for an Anne Monks in both 1889 and 1890
- The 1889 Anne was in the South Dublin Union Workhouse, and the age is not in agreement with family details
- The 1890 Anne was in 37 Mid. Gardiner St. NORTH UNION. A workhouse? Her age matches family details.
Would it be possible for someone, kindly, to look at a Thoms Directory of late 1880s for the address of 37 Middle Gardiner Street, please, to see what is recorded. And pending my arrival in Dublin is it possible to confirm that it is or is not the North Union Workhouse? I had always believed that that was over in the Brunswick Street area.
Help would be greatly appreciated to bring my step g.g.grandmother back into the family fold.
Many thanks
Xotan/David.
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- The 1890 Anne was in 37 Mid. Gardiner St. NORTH UNION. A workhouse? Her age matches family details.
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Would it be possible for someone, kindly, to look at a Thoms Directory of late 1880s for the address of 37 Middle Gardiner Street, please, to see what is recorded.
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Thom's 1879 - 37 Middle Gardiner St
Michael Monks, Provision Dealer
Shane
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I think the reference to North Union you have for Anne might be the registration district.
Thom's 1885 - 37 Middle Gardiner St
Mr. Michael J. Monks
Thom's 1894 - 37 Middle Gardiner St
Mr. James Monks
Shane
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But thanks anyway, even if the mystery seems to deepen. I cannot quite reconcile the information with what has been passed down to us, so I need to think about it a bit and see if I can make some sense of it. It may be that in the light of day some clarity may come from it.
But for the moment I don't see any solution. It may well be that i have to conclude that Anne (Hyland) Monks was buried elswhere.
Thanks again.
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Just another thought has come to me regarding Anne Hyland-Monks.
Her husband, Peter Monks is recorded (Glasnevin) as having been buried from 55 Kirwan Street Cottages. He died in 1884. It is just possble that there may be some record of Anne living there after his death. My records show she died in 1890. That is a fairly narrow window, but I think we are almost at the point where we are doubting the information passed down to us. Of course I realise that a Directory won't necessarily be of help in finding where she was buried, but confirmation of her existence would be something definite in view of the doubts that are forming.
Could I please ask again if you would have a look at Thoms, Shane. Sorry for the bother, but I am grasping at straws here. Your help would be greatly appreciated.
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Unfortunately no details of occupants for Kirwin Street are given in the Thom's 1885 :
Kirwin Street
off Manor St
Dublin Artisan's Dwellings Co. Buildings
1 to 27
16 vacant
28 to 32 tenements
33 to 68 tenements
Shane
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Hello Shane,
Many thanks for such a speedy response. I had hoped that this might reveal at least another line to pursue... :(
Perhaps Peter ob. 1884 left a will. I'll see if I can get to the national Archives when I am in Ireland.
David.
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I dont know how definite your date of death for Anne is... but there's a possible match on the BMD Index in that year :
Name: Anne Monks
Registration district: Dublin North
Event type: Death
Quarter and year: Jan - Mar 1890
Age : 51 (est. year of birth 1839)
Volume : 2 / page : 486
might be worth a try to see what the address is..
Shane
See Jan 2012 post : Monks/White (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,576148.msg4283009.html#msg4283009)
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Just came across this thread, I was looking into Patrick Cahill, optician. Here's my info on him: was born Patrick Keary 1853 to Patrick Keary and Mary Anne Butler of Ballybough Road. He was baptised 23 December 1853 in St. Agatha's Parish.
Patrick Keary could trace his ancestry back to Tomás Baintreabhachd Ó Ciardha of Fore (Co. Meath or Westmeath) who died in 1654. The pedigree is available online from O'Hart's work: http://www.libraryireland.com/Pedigrees1/keary-heremon.php
O'Hart belived that the Kearys were meant to be a branch of the Cahill family of Co. Galway. However, Patrick Keary was also married to Elizabeth, daughter of Patrick Cahill of a well-known Kildare family.
I'm not sure why Patrick Keary changed his name to Cahill, but he died in 1928. He had sons and Cahill's optician on Wellington Quay was sold up in 1951. According to newspaper notices, he really did supply spectacles to several popes over the years.
Would love to hear more if any one has information.
Patrick Keary's son William Keary Cahill seems to have gone over to England where he married and died in the 1950s. There's an entry for William Keary Cahill in the index of wills and admins on ancestry.com, but i don't have access myself.
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Hi David,
Hope all is well, came across your thread whilst I was looking for information on Patrick Cahill, the Optician.
My family have recently been cleaning out my Nana's home in Dublin and they found a letter to Patrick from the Pope's secretary of state. Please reach out if you'd be interested in getting it.
Cheers
Emma