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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: jenfair on Thursday 30 June 11 20:29 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find out about Reverend David Davies, my 4 x great grandfather. All I know from his daughters marriage certificate is that he was a Welsh Calvinistic Methodist Minister. According to some family history stories passed down through my family, he was a 'well known' minister.
His daughter Jane, married another Welsh Calvinistic Methodist Minister - Reverend Thomas Gray Williams - in 1867, in Barmouth. I think David was probably still alive in 1867 as the groom's father is listed on the marriage certificate as 'deceased' and David Davies is not. Jane was born around 1843 in Penmachno (according to census's 1871 and later). However, I cannot find a record of her birth online and am not able to go to Wales at the moment to look up any records. I also have been unable to find Jane before she was married and her parents on the 1851 or 1861 census. All of the cenus records I have looked at so far that list a David Davies with a daughter called Jane (the right age) do not seem to match as there are none with the right occupation for David. As there are so many Davies' in Wales I am not sure exactly where I go next as I cannot afford to look at every census entry. Does anyone know if there are any centrally held records for the Welsh Calvinistic Methodist church where any info about ministers etc can be found?
Many Thanks
Jenny Fairbrother
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Hi Jenny
Welcome to Rootschat :)
Via Google books I found a reference to this document at the National Library of Wales
4821-4831B.
PREGETHAU, &c.
Sermons, addresses, notes, etc., 1834-86, mainly by David Davies of Penmachno, afterwards of Barmouth.
Welsh. XIX cent
It might be worth emailing the NLW to see if they have more information.
Occupations for ministers on the census can be tricky as many of them had other interest such as farming etc. - especially early on in their careers.
I gather you have Jane's marriage certificate. As a matter of interest who was the officiating minister? Many daughters were married by their fathers if they were ministers!
Heather
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Hi Jenny,
I found a possible David Davies for you in "Llawlyfr Hanes y Gyfundeb" [I think it translates as :"A Handbook to the History of the Connexion"] by The Rev D.D. Williams M.A., (not dated, ca.1925/6?):
- p.242 David Davies (1815-1887) of Abermaw [Barmouth]: - says he came under the influence of the 1859 religious revival and (p.277) that he was raised in Penmachno
Maybe some kind poster would care to translate it for you as my skills in that department are a little rusty!
John
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another link to resources
http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/anw/get_collection.php?inst_id=1&coll_id=490&expand=
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1881 Census, 46 Wellesley Rd, Toxteth Park, Liverpool
RG11/3647/106/5
Edward Ellis, 45
Catherine Ellis, 26
Elizabeth Jones, 29
David Davies, 65, Visitor, Calvinistic Methodist Minister, born Penmachno, Caerns
Elinor Davies, 72 Visitor, born Merioneth, Ffestiniog
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1861 Census Penmachno, Caernarvonshire
RG9/4307/3/page 4 and page 5
David Davies, 45, head, M, Minister of the Calivnistic Methodists, born Penmachno
Ellen Davies, 52, wife, born Merioneth, Festiniog
Laura Davies, 19
Jane Davies, 18
Gwen Davies, 13
Evan Davies, 11
Catherine Davies, 7
all children born Penmachno
In 1851 at Plas Ifon Village, Penmachno
HO107/2508/429/20
David Davies 35, head, M, Farmer of 300 acres employing 5 men, born Penmachno
Ellen Davies, 42 wife, born "Do"
Robert Thomas, 21, son (possibly step son?)
William Thomas, 19 son (possibly step son)
Laura Davies, 9, dau
Jane Davies, 8, dau
Gwen Davies, 3, son
Evan Davies, 1, son
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North Wales BMD has a possible marriage
1840 Penmachno, St Tyddud between
David Davies and an Ellin Thomas. Local Conway register office reference C22/1/11
The GRO reference for this marriage is Llanrwst vol 27, page 307 - indexed as Ellen Thomas
If this is the correct marriage it should have Ellen's maiden name recorded
In 1841 Penmachno village there is this family
HO107, 1395/fol 26/pge 12
David Davies, age 25, shkeeper (possibly shop keeper?)
Ellin Davies, age 30 (ages rounded down in 1841)
Robert Thomas, age 11
Richd Thomas, age 8
Ellin "do" i.e. Thomas, age 2 (this may be enumerator error)
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[I don't think the following sounds quite the same as the NLW source specified by Heather in her first reply -- apologies for duplication if it is in fact the same.]
David Davies of Barmouth was the subject of one of that breed of improving cofiant books -- economically produced and priced mini-biographies or memoirs, usually about ministers who had attained a certain celebrity on the "guest-preaching" circuit and whose lives and (especially) sermons were felt likely to be an inspiration to the faithful. Such volumes were often padded out with lengthy appendices immortalising their subject's greatest hits, so the biographical information is not always as comprehensive as the printed length might lead one to hope. Still, they do usually have interesting material about immediate parentage and early influences -- so at 380pp. in DD's case, definitely worth a look. Should be possible to find copies very reasonably priced at Welsh secondhand book shops.
Here is a link to the book's precise details on the Open Library site (http://openlibrary.org/works/OL5498943W/Parch._David_Davies_Bermo), to facilitate browsing the book-finder websites for it. If there is not a copy currently in stock at one of the Hay-on-Wye megastores, one may well be more likely to come across an example by telephoning -- or if possible physically browsing the shelves of -- appropriate small off-line booksellers.
To complete the census collection in preceding posts, at the time of the 1871 DD seems to have been away from Barmouth "on tour", staying at the Dovey Hotel in Aberdovey: RG10/5602 fo.24r p.7.
Rol
BTW, for ease of cross-ref and the avoidance of any future duplication risk, I might record here that there is a related RootsChat thread (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,480278.msg3391193.html#msg3391193) on the Beginners board. That one, dating from September 2010, focuses more on the daughter Jane and son-in-law Thomas Gray (AKA Thomas Gray Williams) who are mentioned in Jenny's opening post above.
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For those who have access to the Gale online database of British 19th Century Newspapers, the family mourners list published in accounts of DD's funeral on 12 Feb. 1887 could prove interesting. Y Genedl Cymreig seems to have been chiefly interested in the immense list of CM ministers who turned out; the family themselves were given fuller coverage in Y Goleuad's account, which appeared in its edition of Sat. 19 Feb. 1887. Seven children are mentioned as attending (three sons and four married [and so unforenamed] daughters with their respective husbands), plus eight grandchildren. It looks rather as though the Cofiant David Davies, Bermo mentioned in my earlier post was written by one of Thomas Gray's fellow ministerial sons-in-law, William Jones of Liverpool.
Rol
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Hi,
Thank you so much to everyone who has replied to my post so far, I am very grateful for your help and will certainly follow up the links etc given.
Jen :) :)
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In addition to my earlier post, I don't unfortunately have access to the Gale Online database but if anyone does I would be grateful for any info available.
Thanks again
Jen
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Hello Jen
Unfortunately I'm overseas and do not have access to the Gale newspapers either.
David Davies will was proved May 20, 1887 by daughter Laura Lloyd (wife of Owen Lloyd) at Corwen.
Described as Calvinistic Methodist Minister, formerly of Bank House Barmouth late of Llysifor, he died at Llysifor Merioneth Feb 9, 1887.
Heather
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For those who have access to the Gale online database of British 19th Century Newspapers, the family mourners list published in accounts of DD's funeral on 12 Feb. 1887 could prove interesting. Y Genedl Cymreig seems to have been chiefly interested in the immense list of CM ministers who turned out; the family themselves were given fuller coverage in Y Goleuad's account, which appeared in its edition of Sat. 19 Feb. 1887. Seven children are mentioned as attending (three sons and four married [and so unforenamed] daughters with their respective husbands), plus eight grandchildren ...
I was rather pressed for time when I wrote that message, so I did not transcribe the names; but because not everyone has easy access to the Gale newspapers (and I was the one who started that hare running), I think that it would be a kindness if I now put my omission right. Here they are, in the order printed but with my formatting:
Children:
-- Mr and Mrs Lloyd, Corwen
-- Revd. Thomas and Mrs Gray, Manchester
-- Revd. W. and Mrs Jones, Liverpool
-- Mr and Mrs Edward Ellis, Huyton Quarry
-- Mr Robert Thomas,
-- Mr Richard Thomas, and
-- Mr John Thomas, [all three of] Penmachno
Grandchildren:
-- Mr Francis Lloyd [and]
-- Miss Edith Lloyd [both of] Corwen
-- Mr David Gray [and]
-- Miss Dora Gray [both of] Manchaster
-- Messrs. J. R. Thomas,
-- David Thomas and
-- The Misses Thomas,
-- Emily Thomas, and
-- Lizzie Thomas, [all of] Penmachno
It is not entirely clear whether "the Misses Thomas" is just a joint title intended to apply to the Emily and Lizzie Thomas whose names appear immediately afterwards (as I assumed when counting heads for the purpose of my last message); or whether alternatively "the Misses Thomas" were two older granddaughters who were labelled more formally than two following siblings who were still children.
It is also worth focusing on the fact that the article ascribes three sons to David Davies with the surname Thomas. It seems not unreasonable to assume that in their case the reporter must have meant "step-children" -- presumably his wife's sons by a previous marriage?
Rol
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Hi Jenny,
I found your enquirer of a few years ago by accident. The Rev David Davies is also a direct ancestor of mine and I wonder if you've found any more about him. I do have additional details regarding him if you wish me to send it through
Regards
Wynne Jones
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Hi
There is a lengthy report of his death in Y Goleuad 19/02/1887 (in Welsh). This can be accessed free online on 'Welsh Newspapers Online'.
He had said that he wanted to be buried at Llanaber Church Cemetery, Barmouth. He moved from Barmouth to Penrhyndeudraeth shortly before his death, and changed his mind - decided that he'd like to be buried at Nazareth Chapel Cemetery (CM), Penrhyndeudraeth. On the afternoon of the day of his death he had been to the Cemetery to choose a plot.
The monument inscription says that he was from Barmouth, formerly from Penmachno, died 09/02/1887, aged 71 yrs, CM preacher for 54 yrs. His wife Ellinor died 20/02/1893, aged 84 yrs. Info from transcription in GFHS publication M259.
After leaving Penmachno he was at Corwen, before moving on to Barmouth.
It seems that initially preaching was a part time job and that he also kept a shop and a farm, and was a forestry(?) steward.
Y Goleuad 26/02/1887 gives following info:
Born 1815, started preaching when he was about 18 yrs old, ordained 1849, name of farm 'Bennar'.
Emyr
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Hi
There is a lengthy report of his death in Y Goleuad 19/02/1887 (in Welsh). This can be accessed free online on 'Welsh Newspapers Online'.
He had said that he wanted to be buried at Llanaber Church Cemetery, Barmouth. He moved from Barmouth to Penrhyndeudraeth shortly before his death, and changed his mind - decided that he'd like to be buried at Nazareth Chapel Cemetery (CM), Penrhyndeudraeth. On the afternoon of the day of his death he had been to the Cemetery to choose a plot.
The monument inscription says that he was from Barmouth, formerly from Penmachno, died 09/02/1887, aged 71 yrs, CM preacher for 54 yrs. His wife Ellinor died 20/02/1893, aged 84 yrs. Info from transcription in GFHS publication M259.
After leaving Penmachno he was at Corwen, before moving on to Barmouth.
It seems that initially preaching was a part time job and that he also kept a shop and a farm, and was a forestry(?) steward.
Y Goleuad 26/02/1887 gives following info:
Born 1815, started preaching when he was about 18 yrs old, ordained 1849, name of farm 'Bennar'.
Emyr
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Hi Emyr,
Thank you for the quick response, we visited the chapel and found the grave this afternoon. Next task is to link David Davies with other generations both before and after!
Regards
Wynne
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Hello Wynne, I've only just seen your posts, it's great to see the discussion up and running again. I haven't done any family history for quite a while but am just getting back into it. I will have a look back and let you know if I found out any more. I don't think I managed to get any further back with his line as the name is so common that I didn't really know where to start. I would definitely appreciate any information you know.
Rev. David Davies is my 4 x great grandfather. His daughter Jane married Rev. Thomas Gray Williams (also a Calvinist Methodist minister). Thomas and Jane had a daughter Dorothy (Dora) who married Hugh Lloyd Williams (my Great Great grandfather).
I hope to hear from you soon and will look back through my records for any more info I might have found.
Jen
Hi Jenny,
I found your enquirer of a few years ago by accident. The Rev David Davies is also a direct ancestor of mine and I wonder if you've found any more about him. I do have additional details regarding him if you wish me to send it through
Regards
Wynne Jones
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Hi Emyr, thanks for this post. I never expected this thread to be picked up again after several years. Thank you for the information.
Hi
There is a lengthy report of his death in Y Goleuad 19/02/1887 (in Welsh). This can be accessed free online on 'Welsh Newspapers Online'.
He had said that he wanted to be buried at Llanaber Church Cemetery, Barmouth. He moved from Barmouth to Penrhyndeudraeth shortly before his death, and changed his mind - decided that he'd like to be buried at Nazareth Chapel Cemetery (CM), Penrhyndeudraeth. On the afternoon of the day of his death he had been to the Cemetery to choose a plot.
The monument inscription says that he was from Barmouth, formerly from Penmachno, died 09/02/1887, aged 71 yrs, CM preacher for 54 yrs. His wife Ellinor died 20/02/1893, aged 84 yrs. Info from transcription in GFHS publication M259.
After leaving Penmachno he was at Corwen, before moving on to Barmouth.
It seems that initially preaching was a part time job and that he also kept a shop and a farm, and was a forestry(?) steward.
Y Goleuad 26/02/1887 gives following info:
Born 1815, started preaching when he was about 18 yrs old, ordained 1849, name of farm 'Bennar'.
Emyr
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Further to Emyr's post, this document (from the North West Wales Dendrochronology project) reports on a survey of Bennar, the house in which David Davies lived in the mid 19th century. It also details its history and in the section on David Davies summarises the newspaper article cited by Emyr. It includes a transcription of the 1861 census (when he resided there)
http://www.coflein.gov.uk/pdf/DCP2013_086_01/
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Hi ?Jen,
Thanks for the attachment, it's really interesting. My wife and I visited the house last month while we were in the UK. ( I've lived in Australia since 1988)
The owners were very friendly and showed us around. They have four holiday cottages, one of which is where David Davies was born
Regards
Wynne
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Hi again Jen,
I meant to add in my last reply, in addition to developing my family tree I'm also trying to establish the line back to an earlier relative who's always been talked about as part of my direct line.
The relative is a person by the name of John Jones who was one of the signatories of Charles 1st death warrant. If you google "Jones Jones regicide" it will tell you a lot about him. My family has portraits etc about him but I haven't yet developed the links. It occurred to me that John Jones may also be a relative of yours
Regards
Wynne