RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent => England => Kent Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Smash Adams on Wednesday 13 July 11 09:28 BST (UK)
-
Hello :)
To begin with- I have the following information on the Veness family of Hawkhurst;
Isaac Veness (birth?) married Barbara Baker (birth?), 22 March 1819 in Dallington Sussex.
I think they had the following children:
Isaac Veness born 1823, Hawkhurst.
John Veness born 1825, "
Mary Veness born 1834, "
In 1841, the family is living in Cranbrook, Kent.
Would someone be able to give me a transcript of the household? And possible births for Isaac and Barbara?
I also found a removal order from the Centre for Kentish Studies
* Isaac Veness and his wife Barbara from Dallington, Sussex. Does anyone know what this may have mean? I presume they fell on hard times?...
Many thanks!
-
Hi Smash
I have relatives that lived in Cranbrook and I think the Parish elders in this parish were quite fierce. Your family's removal order may have been without foundation. If you did not have a settlement certificate they seemed quite keen to get you up and out of their parish asap just "in case" you fell on hard times. I would image that some parishes had a far more relaxed attitude.
The poor law act provided for relief to be granted only to paupers in their parish of settlement. This was intended to restrict the influx of poor labourers especially into parishes that were already overburdened with too many paupers. One difficulty in legal settlement in a new parish was the fear that if you moved out of your original parish of legal settlement that theywould deny responsibility for you if you fell onto hard times. As I said there was a distrust from the parish wardens of newcomers "in case" they should need parish relief in the future.
I think you should have a good chance of finding for their Settlement Certificate from their original parish - try the Centre for Kentish Studies again or TNA.
Kind regards
-
1841 census, Reference HO107, Piece 473, Book/Folio 10/4, Page 1
Pipsden, Hawkhurst
Veness, Isaac M 40 Ag Lab
Veness, Barbara F 40
Veness, John M 16
Veness, Mercy F 7 all born in county
Please remember that ages were (usually!) rounded down to a multiple of 5 years.
Hence age 40 could be anything from 40 to 44
-
Thanks for all that interesting info california dreamin! Does that mean they would have been booted back to Sussex?
Thanks to you too, KGarrad! My ancestor is missing though- Isaac Veness (Jnr) born 1823, Hawkhurst, any chance of finding him? :-*
-
The only likely Isaac is 13 years old, and living with another Veness family - Joseph & Mary in Battle, Sussex.
-
Hi
Yes, they would have been sent back to their parish of original settlement - which could be the one in Sussex. It will say on the removal order where they have been sent back to. My family lived very close to the Sussex-Kent boarder and seemed to drift back and forth between the two counties.
One thing I would point out here was that this area had a high rate of immigrants that were "paid" to leave. My extended family all were given assisted passage to Austrialia! One left one year, a brother the next year, another brother the year after etc. until something like eight siblings had left England. There seems to be alot of records available in Sussex & Kent so you should be able to find some sort of a paper trail for your family.
-
Thanks California- I'll be sure to look up.
Okay, well... I don't think it's him in Sussex. Were Joseph and Mary listed as parents?
Could we try the 1851 census? He's in Lambeth, with wife Sarah, and sons Martin and Reuben. I'm most interested to know what he did for a living!
-
Were Joseph and Mary listed as parents?
1841 census doesn't show relationship to head of household!
They are probably Isaac's parents, but they could also be Uncle & Aunt? Or not related at all!! ;D
1851 census: Reference HO107, 1575, 383, 37
Thomas Place, Stockwell Green, Lambeth
Veniss, Isaac Head M 28 Dyer b Hawkhurst, Kent
Veniss, Sarah Wife F 30 b Kingston, Surrey
Veniss, Martin Son M 2 b Clapham, Surrey
Veniss, Rheubin Son M 10 months b Clapham, Surrey
-
Argh, how frustrating that they don't show relationships in the 1841 census! I'll have to do a bit more digging :)
Now 1861 is quite strange, from what I see there were some serious typo's going on!
(Ie: Israell Venegs) They're all in Hertfordshire I think.
Then I believe Isaac died in 1869 in Hertford.
In 1871, his family are still in Hertford.
Could I have transcripts for both those please? :D
PS: Re: The 1841 census- I found that Isaac Veness born 1828- it isn't my ancestor sadly :( He was born in Sussex, Father- Joseph, Mother- Mary and married a Ann Faith Booker, whereas my Isaac married a Sarah Martin... Oh well, at least I now know it's not him!
-
1871 only has the children:
Reference RG10, 1373, 14, 24
St Andrew Street, Hertford
Veness, Reuben J Son M 20 Garment Dyer b London
Veness, Jane L Daughter F 17 Scholar b Bromley, Kent
Veness, Sarah M Daughter F 12 Scholar b London
Veness, Alice M Daughter F 11 Scholar b London
Veness, Clara W Daughter F 9 b Hertford
-
1871 Highgate, Hawkhurst, Kent
Mary BOURNE head unm 67 b.Hawkhurst
Isaac VENESS lodger mar 81 ag lab b.Brightling Sussex
Barbara lodger's wife mar 71 b.Dallington Sussex
RG10/952 folio 45 page 8
.................
1861 Hawkhurst
Isaac VENESS head mar 70 ag lab b.Brightling Sussex
Barbara wife 66? b.Dallington Sussex
RG9/508 folio 82 page 5
...................
1851 Highgate, Hawkhurst
Isaac VENIS head mar 59 ag lab b.Brightling Sussex
Barbara wife 59 b.Dallington Sussex
Mary Ann CHEESMAN widow (no relationship given) 43 charwoman b.Cranbrook Kent
John Ts CHEESMAN (no relationship given) 6 b.Hawkhurst
Samuel REEDS lodger widower 59 blacksmith b.Hawkhurst
HO107/1619 folio 394 page 29
Casalguidi :)
-
Hawkhurst baptisms for the children of Isaac & Barbara VENIS, of Hawkhurst, Isaac was a labourer.
1823 13th Apr Isaac
1825 20th May John
1832 26th Aug Mercy
These are the only baptisms for VENIS, nothing for VENESS. There are two VENICE families having children baptised in the mid 1700s, but nothing for an Isaac.
I should think there will be a number of variant spellings for this surname!
Betty
-
Truimph! The much needed place of birth for Isaac Snr. Many thanks Casalguidi:)
BettyofKent you gem! I had my suspicions, but that confirms my Isaac is part of this particular family. There are many variations of the name, especially in the early days. By 1841, they're Veness not Venis. But as recently as my Grandfather's marriage in 1912, his mother was listed as 'Venus'.
Any chance of the 1861 transcript for Isaac Jnr.? (They're in Hertford- wife Sarah, Son Reuben, Daughters- Ellen, Louisa, Sarah and Alice).
-
No marriages in Hawkhurst for any of the variant spellings, & the only burials are for VENIS, mid/late 1700s, although I think this is the VENICE family as shown on the baptisms, & one early 1800s.
Betty
-
1861 St Andrew St, St Andrew, Hertford, Hertfordshire
Israeel VENESS head mar 38 dyer employing one man b.Hawkhurst Kent
Sarah wife 39 b.Kingston Surrey
Reuben son 11 b.Clapham
Ellen dau 9 b.Clapham
Louisa dau 7 b.Clapham
Sarah dau 3 b.Islington Middlesex
Alice dau 2 b.Islington Middlesex
RG9/824 folio 39 page 17
Casalguidi :)
-
Thanks Betty- I don't think any of them married in Kent. Isaac and Barbara were married in Sussex, Isaac Jnr. and Sarah in London etc. :)
Brilliant Casalguidi! 'Employing one man'- I love little additions like this ;D Then I believe Isaac died in Hertford, 1869.
1871/1881, Sarah and her daughters were still together in Hertford. Is there any record of them in 1891?
Just found Sarah's death record for 1885, so she sadly didn't make the 1891 census. :(
-
For anyone who may stumble across this forum looking for a Veness ancestor, I have since found a whole lot more information about this particular branch from a very helpful Mr. Robin Herdman :)
Richard Venice (1657-) of Coldharbour Farm, Brightling (Sussex) married Mary Muggridge (1681- 1765) on 20 Jan 1702 at Burwash.
Had 10 Children:
Elizabeth bap 1702
Mary bap 1704
Isaac bap 1706
John bap 1710
Katherine bap 1712
Ann bap 1714
Blank Son (buried 1715, possibly William baptised 1706)
Thomas bap 1717
Sarah bap 1719
Samuel bap 1726
The eldest daughter, Elizabeth, had an illegitimate son, John Veness, baptised 19 Feb 1726 at Brightling.
Sometime later on in life, John moved to Dallington. He married Sarah Goodale on 29 September 1753. (John Snr. died in 1806 aged 80, Dallington).
They had three sons:
John baptised 1754 Dallington
Edward baptised 1760 Dallington
Issac baptised 1764 Dallington
Isaac married Elizabeth Bulcomb (Balcomb) on 10 September 1789, St. Bartholomew, Burwash, Sussex.
Known children from this marriage:
Isaac baptised +- 1790
Elizabeth baptised 20 November 1791 (St. Bartholomew, Burwash)
Isaac Jnr. then went on to marry Barbara Baker, 22 March 1819, St. Giles, Dallington. The previous entries in this forum have covered from this marriage onwards:)
-
Interested in VENESS families who were dyers, in case they have a connection to my family of Samuel VENESS a dyer born around 1785. SSX does not look like his origins (mostly ag labs), but possibly KNT. Unfortunately he died just ahead of the 1851 census, so no confirmed POB.
-
1841 census has a Samuel Veness at Dallington, Sussex. He was born in County.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7SJ-G9Q
-
Thanks KGarrad, but I have his location in 1841, where his county of origin is "N", i.e. not WOR where he was recorded with his wife and family. There has been in-depth research in SSX, and he does not appear to be from that county (at least Samuels there have other histories). The number of dyers with the surname who have KNT origins is interesting.
http://creativegraces.net/genindex/veness.html