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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Stirlingshire => Topic started by: TropiConsul on Thursday 14 July 11 06:36 BST (UK)
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Why am I unable to find a death certificate in Scotland's People for John Simpson Dunsmore between 1901 and 1904? He appears in the 1901 census at Royal Oak Hotel, 169 Stirling Street, Denny, Stirlingshire, Scotland with occupation as hotel keeper, own account, age 67. The death certificate for his spouse, Mary Rennie in 1904, describes her as the widow of John Simpson Dunsmore. He was born about 1833 in Shirva, Kirkintilloch, Dumbartonshire, Scotland. The census for 1891 shows him as hotel keeper, Royal Oak Hotel, employer, age 57.
Both of my grandmother's grandfathers were hotel keepers. The paternal grandfather died in 1868 and left an estate of nearly 500 pounds, but I have no info on the estate or date of death for the maternal grandfather.
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Unsure yet why he is not on Scotlands People but this might help.
He appears to have been buried in Denny Cemetery, date of death 14 Oct 1901 age 88.
Mary Rennie is there too plus other Dunsmores that might be related.
See this page on momento-mori http://www.memento-mori.co.uk/20.pd
Momento-mori may have more info and photogragh of any stone. Their fees are very reasonable.
Dave
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Was just going to post exactly the same as Dave!
:)
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Thanks guys. I found the OPR showing he was baptized 9 May 1813 and married Mary Rennie on 21 Dec 1858. That means he was 45 years old when he took a bride of 21. His first child of that marriage was born less than seven months later and his last child was born in 1882 when he was 68 or 69 years old. I suppose that makes him the Anthony Quinn of his generation! His father-in-law was his senior by three years.
It also means that his parents were John Dunsmore and Jean or Jane Gray who married on 17 Dec 1803 rather than William Dunsmore and Catherine Gray who married 5 Aug 1832. These Lanarkshire Dunsmore men seem to have had a thing for the Gray women!
Of course I have to wonder why he took twenty years off his age when he reported it to the census enumerators in 1891 and 1901.
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I have reviewed the data and conducted additional searches. The 1858 marriage certificate for John Dunsmore and Mary Rennie shows his age to be 25 yrs and hers to be 22 yrs and records his parents as William Dunsmore and Catherine Gray. I have yet to find a birth/baptism or death record for John Dunsmore but he does appear in the 1901 census for Denny with his age recorded as 67 yrs. This persuades me that the Denny cemetary record that shows his age to be 88 at time of burial was mis-transcribed and the actual age at time of death/burial was 68 yrs. His parents were married 5 Aug 1832 and he was the eldest child. All of this information points to his birth having ocurred in 1833.
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You will find that the age of John Simpson Dunsmore at death is actually 68 years. John Simpson Dunsmore was born about 1833 in Airdrie, Lanarkshire, Scotland. The census for 1891 and 1901 show his occupation as hotel keeper of The Royal Oak Hotel which is a hotel in Denny situated in the heart of Scotland, and is an old coaching inn located on the original north road, now the A872 , 7 miles south of Stirling. He married Mary Rennie in 1858. Strangely, I cannot find a birth record for John Simpson Dunsmore, but his parents are documented in his marriage record. John and Mary were married 21 Dec 1858 in New Kilpatrick where his age is given as 25 and hers as 22.
Mary Rennie was born in Cochno, the daughter of James Mathie Rennie, a prosperous Kessington farmer and breeder of prize winning Ayrshire cattle. James Mathie Rennie died in 1862 and his testament (probate of will) left an estate of over 700 British pounds. This sum when calculated as a percent of Gross Domestic Product is equivalent to 560,000 UK pounds or $812,000 at today's rate of exchange (calculated on 6/12/2010).
THE FARMER'S MAGAZINE, VOLUME THE FOURTEENTH, JULY TO DECEMBER MDCCCLVIII, DUMBARTONSHIRE CATTLE SHOW-
The following is the list of successful competitors in the various classes :
Single two year old queys, calved or near calving—1, John Houston, Geilston; 2, James Rennie, Kessington; 3, James Moncur, Bowline.
Bulls under eighteen months old—1, John Smith, Highdykes ; 2, James Rennie, Kessington
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Cross-referencing a thread on the Leeds Board:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=562596.msg4158431
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Many thanks to Daval57 for the suggestion that I engage the services of Memento-mori. Memento-mori did a brilliant job of capturing the images of the graveyard memorial for my 2nd great-grandfather buried in Denny Cemetery. The grave marker confirms that he died in Leeds. It also provides information on a number of John Simpson Dunsmore's descendants.
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Great result.
Easy to see how age at death was mistranscribed as 88 instead of 68.
Hope the details from the stone lead you to other connections.
Dave
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1841 census
William Dunsmore 32 born: Lanarkshire, Scotland Occupation: Overseer Of A Colliery
Catherine Dunsmore 25
Margt Dunsmore 10
John Dunsmore 7
William Dunsmore 5
Mary Dunsmore 3
Janet Dunsmore 1
James Beveridge 25
Address: North St Airdrie
1881 census
John Dunsmore 46 Head born Airdrie Occupation: Hotel Keeper
Mary Dunsmore 43
Mary S Dunsmore 21
William Dunsmore 19
James R Dunsmore 18
John Dunsmore 16
Alexr R Dunsmore 10
Cathrine G Dunsmore 8
Eliza R Dunsmore 4
Pennel B Dunsmore 1
Alexr Stevenson 13
Alexr Rennie 45
Margaret Kinniburgh 18
Address: 71 Glasgow Rd Washington Hotel Kirkintilloch
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1871
John Dunsmore 38 born Airdrie Occupation: Hotel Keeper
Mary Dunsmore 33
Mary S Dunsmore 11
William Dunsmore 9
James R Dunsmore 8
Alexander R Dunsmore 5 MO
Elisabeth Mckee 18
John Dunsmore 6
Margaret Ninnis 11
Address: High St Crossa Inn Kirkintilloch
1861
John Dunsmore 27 born Glasgow ??? Occupation: Coal Merchant
Mary Dunsmore 24
Mary S Dunsmore 1
Elisabeth Rennie 19
Helen Sweeny 15
Address: Cowgate Victoria Place Kirkintilloch
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And for my 100th post on RootsChat:
1911 Census Bonnybridge (love that name!) Stirling
Catherine Ferguson, age 39, wife of James Ferguson
Her name is inscribed on the Denny Cemetery grave marker as follows-
In memory of
JOHN SIMPSON DUNSMORE
Who died at Leeds
14th October 1901 aged 68 years
His son JOHN
Who died at Denny
17th November 1897 aged 31 years
His daughter BESSIE
Wife of James Adam
Who died at Killamarsh, Sheffield
19th December 1901 aged 25 years
His wife MARY RENNIE who died at Dumbarton
9th January 1904 aged 67 years
ALEX. R. DUNSMORE
Died 6th May 1914 aged 44 years
MARY S. DUNSMORE
Died 23rd June 1924 aged 65 years
DAVID R. DUNSMORE
Died 25th September 1936 aged 54 years
CATHERINE G. FERGUSON
Died 5th September 1917 aged 45 years
Erected by Mary Rennie his widow
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A marriage showing on Scotland's People:
1894 at Denny, Stirlingshire James S. Ferguson and Catherine Gray Dunsmore (Gros 476/01 0023)
Anne
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John Simpson Dunsmore married Mary Kerr Rennie on 21 Dec 1858 at Kessington, New Kilpatrick, Lanarkshire. They had the following children:
Mary Scott Dunsmore 7 Jun 1859 Kirkintilloch
William Dunsmore 5 May 1861 Kirkintilloch
James Rennie Dunsmore 11 Mar 1863 Kirkintilloch
John Dunsmore 4 Feb 1865 Kirkintilloch
Alexander Rennie Dunsmore 1 Oct 1870 Kirkintilloch
Catherine Gray Dunsmore 4 Feb 1873 Kirkintilloch
Robert Dunsmore 1 Oct 1874 Kirkintilloch
Elizabeth Rennie Dunsmore 26 May 1876 Kirkintilloch
Penuel Bailie Dunsmore 29 May 1879 Kirkintilloch
David Rennie Dunsmore 11 Oct 1882 Kirkintilloch
I also found the illegitimate birth to Helen Fulton of a child she named John Simpson Dunsmore Fulton on 25 Jun 1858! No father appears on the birth record.
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his testament (probate of will)
Probate has no meaning in Scotland - it is an English Law term. The corresponding term in Scots Law is confirmation. So if you are looking for probate records in Scotland you are likely to have a frustrating and ultimately unsuccessful search ;)
See http://www.nas.gov.uk/guides/wills.asp for a comprehensive guide to this topic.
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Forfarian, the site you cite provides the following: "Probates resealed-
Before 1858, if a person who normally lived in England, Ireland or Wales died owning moveable property in Scotland, the Commissary Court of Edinburgh was responsible for his or her executry, as it was, indeed, for those in the same situation in other parts of the world. From 1858, the procedure of 'probates resealed' was introduced. By this mechanism, the succession to the moveable Scottish property belonging to individuals normally resident in England, Wales or Ireland could be arranged by the English, Welsh or Irish court simply sending a copy of the local grant of probate or letters of administration to the Edinburgh Commissary Court. Up to 1901 these records are included in the ScotlandsPeople website. From 1902 onwards they can be found in the Calendar of Confirmations."
Thus the term "probate" has some standing in Scottish law, but I am grateful for learning the equivalence of "confirmation" to "probate". Probate is universally understood here in the USA where even a former slave could be expected to own a cabin and a garden; or farm animals and implements; and could dispose of them without hindrance by recording a holograph will or, if illiterate, dictating a will with witnesses to his mark of hand. I did find two testaments in this family (one from John Simpson Dunsmore's father-in-law) and downloaded them from Scotland's People. I think the county courthouse in the USA was a bastion of liberty, not of oppresion. It is certainly indispensible to the genealogist. I can track some ancestors to children born in the New England colonies in the 1640's. The records get very dodgy when you cross the Atlantic.
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His death seems to have been registered in Leeds. John Dunsmore, aged 68, Free BMD, Dec Qtr. 1901, Leeds Registration District.
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Thus the term "probate" has some standing in Scottish law
Only to the extent of accepting that 'probate' in English Law is the equivalent to 'confirmation', and vice versa, which is a sensible compromise to avoid the need for a duplicate procedure when someone dies owning property in both jurisdictions. The extract you cite from the site I cited makes it clear that an English probate has to be re-sealed in Scotland to be valid as a confirmation, and a Scottish confirmation has to be re-sealed in England to be valid as English probate. I said that the term 'probate' has no meaning in Scots Law, and I stick to that.
I know nothing about the comparable situation in the USA. Please forgive me for not talking about what I don't know about.
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This is my first post so excuse me if I am not doing it correctly
The reason you cant find a death certificate for John Simpson Dunsmore the hotel keeper is because he did not die in Scotland the following is from his probate He died in Leeds England
Dunsmore John, Hotelkeeper, Royal Oak Hotel Denny. Died the 14 October 1901 at leeds Interstate.
Inventory given up at Stirling 30 June by Mary Rennie or Dunsmore, Hotel Keeper, royal Oak Hotel aforesaid Executrix, dative qua relict. Value of Estate 386 pounds 5 shillings 6 pence
my second great grandfather was John Simpson Dunsmore's cousin
Sandra Kinniburgh Wylie
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Hi just saw this old post about the Oak Hotel Denny.
I can tell you that in 1920s my husbands family came from Edinburgh and took over the oak Hotel.Boyle family were irish.My mother in law was born in the Oak Hotel 1926.Her grandfather owned the Oak and stables and house at back.He died around 1926 and his wife remarried and the Oak went to the new husbands family and my husbands family got nothing when it was sold years later.The family are still in Denny and hotel has now been made into flats.Marguerite.