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Research in Other Countries => South Africa => Topic started by: pampoen on Thursday 14 July 11 10:24 BST (UK)
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Help needed with tracing the families below please.
From NAAIRS and other sources I found the following.
1900-Henry Edward GROOM, LOWER TUGELA STATES PACKAGES ADDRESSED TO MRS. ASHBY
CONTAINED PARTS OF RHINOCERUS HEADS.
1958- GROOM, CHARLES LANCELOT HESSETT. BORN IN ENGLAND. S/SP GROOM ADELINE ROSE. DECEASED ESTATE.
Gertrude Mary Groom born 1875 London. Died 16th July 1953 in Durban. Married 23rd April 1894. Frederick Thomas William RATHBONE born 14th March 1869. Died 7th Jul 1939.
Children from their marriage.
1. Constance Harriet RATHBONE (189??-1968), born Pietermaritzburg, Natal.
2. Ethel Winifred RATHBONE (189?-1964), born Durban, Natal.
3. Gladys Gertrude RATHBONE (189?-19??) - known as "Bunny".
4. Mabel Josephine RATHBONE (190?-1967).
5. Natalia Maud RATHBONE (12 Feb 1907-6 Apr 1971).
6. Robert RATHBONE (c1908-19??) - died young of concussion.
7. Frederick Thomas RATHBONE (12 Feb 1910-2 May 1964).
Claud Albert Groom born 1882.Died .Married?
1937- MABEL ELIZABETH. (BORN GROOM) (S/S JIM MEREDITH MILLER).
William Michael Tollner (Jnr) married second time to Maud Marion Francis Groom born 1878 Le Havre France. Died 1951 Natal.
Children from this marriage:
1. Irene
2. Constance
3. Gwen
4. Son number 1
Leon James Groom- DEPOT McGregor Museum, Kimberley
TYPE Manuscript
REFERENCE MMK7590/1-989
DESCRIPTION Griqualand West Board of Executors.
STARTING 1900
ENDING 1960
REMARKS Donor: Griqualand West Board of Executors, Kimberley. Book
catalogue and card catalogue available. 22,40 lin. m.
SUMMARY + Solvent and insolvent estates done by the Griqualand West
Board of Executors. Does this mean Leon died in the Cape?
DESCRIPTION GROOM, CHARLES LANCELOT HESSETT. BORN IN ENGLAND. S/SP GROOM,
ADELINE ROSE. DECEASED ESTATE.
STARTING 19580000
ENDING 19580000
1905-Letter written on the 8/5/1905 by the chief doctor from Addington Hospital Durban South Africa states that Constance Harriett Groom had been employed there for the last 18 months. Which means she started there about November 1903. From here she must have gone to Vryheid South Africa as shown below.
1906- DESCRIPTION SISTERS MILLS AND GROOM SUNNYSIDE NURSING HOME VRYHEID. WRITES WITH REFERENCE TO THE RENEWAL OF THE GOVERNMENT GRANT $150 PER ANNUM.
In 1906 she married my grandfather William Percival Austin who fought in the Boer War 1900-1902, and then served in the NDMR in Vryheid from 1903-1913.
Any help with the above appreciated.
Regards Derek
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Good Day
My Paternal Grandmother was Natalia Maud Rathbone and she was married Cedric Norman Baldwin and their children where George Colin (my father)\Leo and Gloria Mary there was another child who died at an early age
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Hi Evilkitty I would like to share some info with you.Before we can use the personal messages you have to post 3 posts on this forum otherwise it will not work.Also do not put your email address on the forum.
So to reply put I would love to hear from you then post.Next post put still waiting for a reply then post.You should then see 3 posts under your name.Cheers Derek
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Hi Derek, I came across your researches ref;- Groom and Miller.
Part of my family comes from Jim Meredith Miller's (also known as "Pim") brother William Henry Miller, who left his wife and family. I was told that WHM went to SA gold prospecting. But Jim's grandson in SA has told me the following;- that they both joined the British Army, sent to India and then to SA to re-inforce during the boer war. Jim was in the Natal colonials and was a scout under baden-powell at ladysmith. After the war he was in the ZAAPS Natal mounted police, which brought him to Tugela river hotel and Mabel Elizabeth groom. They married in St Cyprians church.
The Grandson said that for 4 generations they've tried to find out where the "Meredith" came from without success, but all the children and their children have it.
Jim and mabel separated i think, he lived on a house-boat called "Pumela" Zulu for rest. He broke in horses for the army and was a harbour guard at durban, where "he was rowed about the harbour by two zulus2, He had a chandlers and the nick-name of "manzi"meaning water.
This is his letter to me;-
I must confess that I was surprise and confused at that until I reread my letter and realised the vein I had put it and I sincerely apologise for it .Yesterday I had just returned from visiting my wife in the intensive care unit , where she has for 3 days been recovering from a serious operation and had spent the night before and most of yesterday at the hospital,I did not proof read the letter however I thought I had possibly been rambling on to long and that I might be boring 'You' Please be assured that no way I felt the way it came across. Enough said ,
Regarding the Meredith issue this has confounded my family for 4 generations I was hoping to resolve this within the Sarah Hardy family as it seemed to start there us having no information regarding that branch of the family possibly it might come out now. As for the Miller line coming to South Africa, my father James 'Meredith 'Miller born 1903 told me this. Jim Meredith Miller it seems joined the British Army along with his brother William they were sent to India until the 1st World War when they were relocated to British South West Africa to appose the German invasion, as I was 2 when Jim M.my Grandfather passed away ( incidentally his pet family name was"Pim") I recollect a vague figure as he lived with us for about a year then returned to Durban to be with Constance Millicent my father's older sister, I never saw him again.As for William -- I never knew him but it seems he was here as I once presented my eldest (half) brother "we were never to regard each other as such," a copy of the 1881 census he exclaimed "hey there's Uncle Willie ! " he had obviously seen him ( my eldest brother was 20 years older than me) . Pim as we knew him was declared unfit for military duty and relieved from duty as a Signalman suffering from Malaria he then joined the Natal Colonials and was a scout/ reconnaissance trooper and was seconded to Badenpowel at the siege of Ladysmith after the Boer war he again joined the Natal Mounted Police (ZAAPs)and patrolled the Natal North Coast from Durban to Zululand , having to overnight at the Tugela River Ferry and hotel where he met my Grandmother Mabel Elizabeth Groom one of the daughters of the Ferry and hotel proprietors daughters ( Mr Henry Edward Groom) Pim undertook to desert the ZAAP s and eloped with my Grandmother through Zululand into what is now the Kruger national Park then into Durban to be married at St Cyprians Church. My father was unsure of his birthplace but recalled helping Pim (his father to break in horses to be sold to the British army in Pretoria. Pim it seems was a character of note, His wife my Grandmother divorced him as she could not see herself moving back to Durban to retire onto his houseboat and drift around Durban Harbour where he again after going on pension found employment as Harbour Guard (having 2 Zulus row him around daily ) to ensure all obstructions and floating debris were cleared of the waterway, Apparently he and having taught my father to box and earned prize money in bare fist boxing at the Seaman's Club (owned by Harry Moore who later married Constance my fathers sister,) He died in Durban and shares a grave in West St. cemetery with Maude his daughter,Mabel his ex wife,(Maude died of a black widow spider bite @ a young age being his first child,Constance Millicent his second, and James Meredith my father (Ted) there is a book I recall seeing when I was about 6 called Pumula (Zulu for place of rest) named after his Houseboat giving an account of his life , it floated about the house then drifted away. I hope this answers some of your questions looking forward to hearing from you again.
I would send asome pictures of him, but do not know how to attach them.Also could you tell me where are you located and your link to the Millers please?
Yours
P.Wheeler
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Hi Tuttismuss thanks for your reply. If you make one more post on this site we can then send personal messages to each other. Do not put your email address up here as it is not allowed. In a nutshell my paternal grandmother was Mabel's sister hence the connection. Is this letter from Doug Miller? If so he has been corresponding with me but have not heard from him for some time. I live in Brisbane but will be returning to Durban over Xmas and would like to meet with Doug. Can you tell me your connection to the family in more detail?
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Hi Derek,
Thanks for your e-mail reply. Yes all that is in bold is doug's letter from about 18 months ago. At the time there was illness in the family, but I have not heard from him since then.
William Henry Miller was Jim's (Pim) brother and he had married into the Caus(i)er family in Birmingham, England, Reading between the lines as it seems to have caused major upheaval to the children and their children. He seems to have left England with Jim and joined the army initially to india then to SA, according to Doug and also left Catherine Causier and their children. Although my mother was told he'd gone gold prospecting with no reference to him having a family, Catherine found a new husband and had lots of sons, who my Mother knew as Uncles and they even exchanged Birthday cards in the late 1940's. But William's children by Catherine got the rough end of the stick.
My side comes from William Henry Miller's son, another Wm Hy Miller who would be my Grandfather.
I don't know what happened to Wm Hy Miller while in SA, or if went back to England. Doug has some photos of Jim though.
Yours
Phill
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Hi Phil found this in the archives DEPOT
KAB SOURCE MOOC TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 13/1/1665 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 150 PART 1 DESCRIPTION MILLER, WILLIAM HENRY. LIQUIDATION AND DISTRIBUTION ACCOUNT. STARTING 19080000 ENDING 19080000.
DEPOT KAB SOURCE MOOC TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 6/9/8802 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 78296 PART 1 DESCRIPTION MILLER, WILLIAM HENRY. ESTATE PAPERS. STARTING 19420000 ENDING 19420000.
It appears to be WH Millers estate file. If you want a copy I can ask if someone can go transcribe the file in Cape Town, this is a voluntary request relying on someone's generosity. No photocopying or photos allowed.
Then I found this DEPOT NAB MSCE TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 0 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 30013/1939 PART 1 DESCRIPTION MILLER, WILLIAM HENRY. (S/S ALLETA JOHANNA; BORN HOUGH). STARTING 1939 ENDING 1940
Any idea if he married? If so do you know her name?
Regards Derek
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Hi Derek,
Thank you for the e-mail and references.
Well if you think someone would copy it, one can only ask as they say, it would be enlightening to flesh him out.
From the moment he must have left, as part of the morals and society it happened in, silence must have descended, as it would have been considered a family scandal. So the prospecting story came about for the children and so it was passed on. But Catherine's remarriage to Mr Surrall, must have brought it to the fore again, hence my Moms' reticence whenever I inquired who Surrall was when doing FH even as late as the 70's. I found parts of the jig-saw through the electoral rolls and the Census's as to how the family changed shape, but to late to see if Mom knew the truth.
Sorry we know only what Doug told me last year. He's photos of Jim have the Miller resemblance though, I was surprised that he was not taller. His nephew my grandfather was about 5'10" and a club cyclist, mom said he also rowed, though I have no evidence for that.
All the best
Phill
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Phil do you have any pictures of Jim Miller?
Doug gave me one photo of Mabel.
Regards Derek
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Hi derek,
Here is what Dug sent me.
Phill
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Hi derek,
here is my maternal Grandfather, Wm Hy Miller aka jack for some reason.
Phill
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and again
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Hi Phil I found this which might be the marriage of WH Miller in 1919 which would make his birth date 1872 and Jim would have been born in 1868. Sounds about right. Click on the link https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11596-169994-95?cc=2063749&wc=M9WM-PR1:n1689800448 and here is some more info.
William Henry Miller b 1872 was married firstly to Catherine Causier in England and then absconded to join the Army and eventually settling in South Africa. Not sure if he got divorced from his first wife? He died in 1947 aged 75. As can be seen above in the link he then married Wilhelmina Hansina Mathilda Anderson born 1891.
DEPOT NAB SOURCE MSCE TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 00
SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 2443/1947 PART 1
DESCRIPTION MILLER, WILLIAM HENRY. S/SP MILLER, WILHELMINA HANSINA MATHILDA. STARTING 19470000
ENDING 19480000.
And here is your grandfather and his wife's estate notices.
DEPOT NAB SOURCE MSCE TYPE LEER SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 101/1969 PART 1 DESCRIPTION MILLER, WILLIAM HENRY. BORN IN LADYSMITH, NATAL. S SP MILLER,
MILDRED BEATRICE SUSAN. DECEASED ESTATE. STARTING 19690000
ENDING 19690000.
DEPOT NAB SOURCE MSCE TYPE LEER SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 1353/1969 PART 1 DESCRIPTION MILLER, MILDRED BEATRICE SUSAN. (BORN CRICKMORE). BORN IN DURBAN,
NATAL. PRSP MILLER, WILLIAM HENRY. ESTATE NO. 101/1969. DECEASED ESTATE. STARTING 19690000 ENDING 19700000.
It is a shame I never found this info before as I was in Natal and could have gone to the archives to look up these notices.
I found the memorial plaque for WH Miller and his wife Mildred located at Stellawood cemetery in Durban.
Regards Derek
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re James Meredith Miller - 1868 - 1947, his daughter, Maude Miller, was married to a relative of mine, Laurence Bingle Murrell. They had a child together, Laurence Meredith Miller. Maude and Laurence split up at some stage and we presume were divorced. Does anyone know when she died?
I have some photos of Jim Meredith Miller with his grandson and my grandmother standing next to his houseboat, Pumula.
Sue Wessels
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Hi Sue if you make 2 more posts on this group then I can send you a personal message with some info.
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Photo of James Meredith Miller next to his houseboat with his grandson, Laurence Meredith Murrell and my grandmother, Oliver Nellie Murrell (Butler) who was married to Laurence's uncle, Edwin Charles Murrell.
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A photograph of Jim Meredith Miller's houseboat, Pumula. Sue Wessels
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Just been reading through the thread.
Griqualand West would be in the modern Northern Cape so I would assume that he died in that area.
The Estate File if there is one would possibly have gone to Kimberley.
Did you find his name on that list? Because my past experience with those entries is that the search picks out the individual names unless you have limited the search specifically, and so he may not be there.
Map at this link showing the old boundaries from the era
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bd/The_Cape_Colony_-_1878.jpg
I use it a lot ....
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Hi
On Family Search
Claud Albert Groom marriage 8 May 1912 to Wilhelmina Tollner
There is an image attached just click on the image next to the entry.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDC5-3FR
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Wonder if this is Claud's son given the spelling of the name born 1913 marriage 1940
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDZ9-97P
Image attached to entry as well
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Don't know if you have a copy of William Percival's marriage but if not it's here:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDZ9-97P
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Constance Harriett Rathbone:
There is a marriage entry on Family Search giving estimated date of birth to be 1895
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDCR-NQX
Ethel Winnifred Rathbone
Marriage with estimated date of birth to be 1897
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDCT-C5V
Mabel Josephine Rathbone estimated year of birth 1918
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDCG-YKM
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Hi Phil I found this which might be the marriage of WH Miller in 1919 which would make his birth date 1872 and Jim would have been born in 1868. Sounds about right. Click on the link https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11596-169994-95?cc=2063749&wc=M9WM-PR1:n1689800448 and here is some more info.
William Henry Miller b 1872 was married firstly to Catherine Causier in England and then absconded to join the Army and eventually settling in South Africa. Not sure if he got divorced from his first wife? He died in 1947 aged 75. As can be seen above in the link he then married Wilhelmina Hansina Mathilda Anderson born 1891.
DEPOT NAB SOURCE MSCE TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 00
SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 2443/1947 PART 1
DESCRIPTION MILLER, WILLIAM HENRY. S/SP MILLER, WILHELMINA HANSINA MATHILDA. STARTING 19470000
ENDING 19480000.
Here is the estate of William Henry Miller https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS7R-V3MN-B?i=2072&cat=229462
DEPOT NAB SOURCE MSCE TYPE LEER SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 101/1969 PART 1 DESCRIPTION MILLER, WILLIAM HENRY. BORN IN LADYSMITH, NATAL. S SP MILLER,
MILDRED BEATRICE SUSAN. DECEASED ESTATE. STARTING 19690000
ENDING 19690000.
DEPOT NAB SOURCE MSCE TYPE LEER SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 1353/1969 PART 1 DESCRIPTION MILLER, MILDRED BEATRICE SUSAN. (BORN CRICKMORE). BORN IN DURBAN,
NATAL. PRSP MILLER, WILLIAM HENRY. ESTATE NO. 101/1969. DECEASED ESTATE. STARTING 19690000 ENDING 19700000.
It is a shame I never found this info before as I was in Natal and could have gone to the archives to look up these notices.
I found the memorial plaque for WH Miller and his wife Mildred located at Stellawood cemetery in Durban.
Regards Derek
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Leon James Groom b. Boughton Kent 1884 died 30/11/1945 in Bulawayo Rhodesia.
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Hi There is still Groom family living in Mtunzini Zululand and I knew a Don Percival at Tugela Mouth long gone though but there is a relative also Percival in Empangeni Zululand.
Also the Estate files for Natal on Family Search are available up to 1950.
Hope this is maybe of interest to you. Regards Pat
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Hi Pat thank you how can I get in touch with the Groom family in Mtunzini? I have most of the estate files except Henry Edward Grooms file which seems to have gone missing. My grandfather was William Percival Austin who married a Groom. Regards Derek
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G. Groom 035 340 1238
G. R. Groom 035 340 1103
Derek hope this helps you regards Pat.
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Thanks Pat shall try contact him.
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Pleasure Derek