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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Monmouthshire => Wales => Monmouthshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: RanneFraser on Friday 15 July 11 16:26 BST (UK)
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Hi! I love this website, so many helpful people! I'm looking for the parents of John Michael b abt 1813 Holyhead & Rachel Jones b abt 1819 Llanwenarth.
Their marriage was registered in Abergavenny May quarter 1840 volume 26 page 49. They were living in Llanfihangel Crucorney in 1841. He was a baptist minister if that helps any.
I realize the logical thing to do would be to order the record but i'm low on cash so i thought i would give asking a shot ;D
Thank you either way!
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Welcome to Rootschat! ;D
I guess you know what I'm going to say - you need to get that marriage cert when you can. If it was later in the century, you might find an earlier census, but the couple are already married by 1841. Your other problem is that your man is a Baptist minister. This suggests he may have been born into a Baptist family, so you wont find an infant baptism for him as Baptists don't practice that rite. He may have been baptised around the age of 15 & any surviving register may not mention his parents.
http://www.baptist.org.uk/believers-baptism/what-is-baptism.html
Have you followed the couple & their children through the census years? I can see that Rachel died between 1851 & 1861 and John remarried to a Hannah.
death reg?
Rachel Michael march qtr 1852 Chepstow vol 11a pg 3
possible remarriage
John Michael dec qtr 1853 Pontypool vol 11a pg 261 with Hannah Davey on the same page
In 1861, John & Rachel's daughter Margaret is with relatives, so that looks to be Rachel's family
Cwmmera (?), Llantilio Crossenny
William Jones head widower 80 farmer of 123 acres employing 1 labourer & 2 boys b. Llanwenarth
Benjamin son unm 41 b. Llanwenarth
Eunice dau unm 36 b. Llanwenarth
Mary dau unm 29 b. Llantilio Crossenny
William Charles Taylor visitor 24 student Baptist College b. Somerset, Bishop Lydeard
Margaret Michael niece 12 b. Llangwm
Sabina Jones 17 house servant b. Abergavenny
Cornelius Pritchard 20 carter b. Llantilio Crosenny
John Davies 13 general servant b. Llanvetherine
I suspect that niece here is used in the old fashioned sense of female relative of a younger generation and we would say grand daughter instead. I'm not finding parish baptisms for this family, so they could also be non-conformists. Finding the other children in 1861 may help with other family members.
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the 1841 gives us William's wife and makes this couple look even more likely to be Rachel's parents & that the family are Baptists
1841 Cwmmera, Llantilio Crossenny HO107/748/8 folio 27 pg 6
William Jones 60
Eunice 55
John 25
Benjamin 20
Eunice 15
Elizabeth 14
Mary 9
James Isles(?) male servant
Mary ? female servant not born in county
Morgan Lewis 40 Baptist minister not born in county
all born in county except where noted.
There's a possible marriage in Llanwenarth of William Davies of Llanelly, Breconshire & Eunice Davies by licence 16/11/1811. You can get a copy of the licence from the National Library in Aberystwyth.
http://www.llgc.org.uk/index.php?id=485
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Thank you so much for responding! I should have mentioned that i already did the censuses and found all of Rachel and John's children along with their families etc. I'm sorry to have wasted your time!
I also traced William and Eunice under the assumption that William was Margaret's grandfather, but i didn't want to settle on that without any actual proof. There are lots of little things that connect the two families. Rachel and John had two children named William and Eunice. William's farm was actually used as a Baptist meeting house until they built a proper chapel.
You are correct on the marriage date of William and Eunice. I have their deaths and pictures of their tombstones too.
I guess i should just bite the bullet and order a copy when i have a few extra dollars. Thank you so much for everything, i appreciate it!
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to order certificates, use the officiial site. It's cheaper than ordering via services advertised on genealogy sites.
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
As you're not going to be finding baptisms, your only choice is the marriage cert. Firther back, the marriage bond may also help. Do you have Eunice's father's will? Search here for Richard David in Llanwenarth.
http://cat.llgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/gw/chameleon?skin=profeb&lng=en
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You're awesome! Thanks so much for the links. How did you figure out Eunice's father?
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I looked for wills in Llanwenarth + the name David. There was one in the 1820s, and it said to "my daughter Unis Jones". Hoping there isn't more than one Eunice David in Llanwenarth who married a Jones...
Where are William, Eunice & Rachel buried? Finding the burial of Richard might help with his age.
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William & Eunice are buried at Llanwenarth Baptist Chapel in Govilon. I don't see any Richards though.
http://history.govilon.com/records/inscriptions/baptistchapel/display.asp?searchtype=person&person=421
Not sure about Rachel. She lived in Llangwm Uchaf so maybe somewhere around there.
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I've had a quick look in some of the surrounding parishes, but haven't spotted her. They haven't all been transcriberd though.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monfamilies/monprts.htm
She may have been buried in Llangwm Baptist where John was minister.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MON/Llangwm/index.html
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The first link is actually what prompted me to make the original post. I had read through most of the parishes and Llanfihangel Crucorney wasn't transcribed yet, but i was hoping someone was working on it.
Amusingly, I've read the second link before and never noticed his name lol! Very cool. She probably is buried there then.
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"William Jones Cwmerra, born 1789 Tredegar, - Printed memorial biography at NLW in a manuscript history of Monmouth Baptist Chapels."
Any ideas on how to find this?
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if it's in manuscript form, it has probably not been published. You can contact the Library to ask if they can copy details.
http://www.llgc.org.uk/index.php?id=4646&
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Thank you, good idea!
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Hello from Australia, I found your posts re the family of William Jones and Eunice Davies. I am interested in the children's names because I have a son named Edwin who came to Australia as a convict and he started the Australian Jones'. Do you have a son Edwin/Edward/Edmund who due to his convict status does not get mentioned?
Regards
Lu
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i personally dont have Edwin, but im also missing three of the children. i only have six out of nine in my tree. I know William and Eunice had three more. in other peoples trees on ancestry, he is listed though. do you have his marriage record to Sophie Elliott or his death record? the problem i see is that Edwin was born in 1808(?), but Eunice and William werent married until 1811. could he have been a few years younger than that? what information do you have for Edwin right now?
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Hello Ranne, Well that is a shame about Edwin. I copied all my information from you and Osprey!! I was looking for a William Jones and Eunice Davies and Rootschat came up so I presumed I had hit GOLD!!!
In the deaths for Edwin in Australia I found an Edwin who died in 1862 with a father William so again presumed William which you have is the same family.
Edwin arrived here as follows:
Edwin Jones
Monmouth Assizes
Sentence term: Life
Ship: Lloyds
Departure date: 19th August, 1833
Arrival date: 18th December, 1833
Place of arrival New South Wales
Passenger manifest Travelled with 199 other convicts
I don't know anymore re Edwin other than he married Sophie Elliott in 1843 and had 8 children. I have the Australian line but no proof.
I have just found my file on William Jones who was born 1780 Tredegar, Monmouth Wales and died Cwmerra Monmouthshire Wales. Married 1811 at Llanwenarth Eunice Davies she died August 1860 at Llantillio Crosseney Wales.
They had - Edwin; John, Rachel, Benjamin, Eunice, Elizabeth married Gillbert, and Mary married name Humphrey. As I said Edwin born 1808 at Glamorgan Wales died in New South Wales. Came to Australia in 1833 as a convict for house breaking. Trial : Lent 1833 Monmouthshire. Originally sentenced to death. Convicted on March 25, 1833 aged 26.
What I have was researched by a Mr Hartley Australia on Rootsweb but for the life of me I cannot find that entry in message boards.
Tell me what you think of this! You may be able to find the entry in Rootsweb, I cant remember but he may have just sent me an email.
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Sadly I think Edwin Jones the burglar is no relation of the Joneses of Cwmera
here's a newspaper report of the conviction from the Monmouthshire Merlin of 30 March 1833 - see about halfway down the first column - begins "The Pontypool burglars". It refers to Edwin's siblings James, Samuel and Catherine, all of whom lived in the Pontypool area, where the offences were committed. Quite a way from Llanfihangel Crucorney
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3391785/3391787/5/
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Thank you Marie for your information and the newspaper cutting regarding Edwin Jones.
As I mentioned before, on the NSW death entries in the Register, Edwin's father was a William. Without purchasing the record which will only show his wife and children and what he died from and date and where he is buried I am at a loss as to where to go from here.
Do you have access to records in Wales?
If Edwin was 22 in 1833 he would have been born in 1811 and James born 1807. Would you be able to find a record of marriage for a William and births of these children? Catherine also? So the previous information I gave about Edwin being born on 16 September 1808 Glamorgan Wales is not the Edwin from the court case???
I would be interested to hear further.
Lesley
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Well the cutting is so close to the conviction date you gave it has to be Edwin - the siblings names then seem to suggest he's not from the Cwmera family.
Where does the 1808 date of birth come from - and Glamorgan?. The Cwmera family aren't from Glamorgan
There would be rather a lot of William Joneses who could be Edwin's father
if it's any help it appears the brother Samuel was transported in 1832
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Samuel was 28 when convicted in august 1832, According to newspapers, which fits a Samuel Jones convicted in Monmouth who arrived on the Camden on 17 Feb 1833
I've found the record for James (35) and "Edward" Jones (22) received onto the hulk Justicia - convicted of housebreaking, Monmouth assizes 25 March 1833, departed the hulk 14 August 1833
The three and their friends Thomas Parry, Thomas Snell alias Chapman and John Bale were described as a most formidable gang of housebreakers who have infested the town and neighbourhood of Pontypool for some time
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Hello Mabel,
I have a friend who has Ancestry and he told me that -
Edwin Jones was born 16 September 1808 Glamorgan Gwent Wales and he died in Penrith Australia in 1862 and he found a headstone showing same.
He also found a William Jones 1780 and dying 1861 aged 81 marrying a Eunice Davies 1786 and dying 1860 aged 74 who had four children: Edwin (Edmund) James, Samuel and Catherine as mentioned in the newspaper article. James drowned in 1834 at Maitland NSW and Samuel died in 1844 of a burst blood vessel at Black Heath Stockade. Edwin and James were transported to Australia on the ship 'LLOYDS".
Can you make something of William and Eunice Davies from their dates?
Thank you for all the help you are giving.
What happened to James' two children when he got sent to Australia. Maybe William and Eunice looked after them?
Lesley
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OK
Glamorgan and Gwent are two different counties, so people would not described themselves as born "Glamorgan Gwent" Also Gwent wasn't really used for the area in the early 19th century - it would have been Monmouthshire.
I think the problem may be that a number of people have trees on Ancestry for Edwin, which seem to copy each other and suggest his parents were William and Eunice. I can't see they have any significant sources for this conclusion - although admit as I don;t have a worldwide Ancestry sub there may be info I'm missing. The gravestone only gives dates of birth and death
What I can say as the contemporaneous newspaper reports name 3 brothers, and those and other records place them as being born c1798, c1805 and c1810 - all before William Jones and Eunice Jones of Cwmmera were married. Their locale is also not particularly near Cwmmera.
I wonder if people have spotted his daughter Eunice, supposed she was named for his mother, found a William and Eunice and decided there is a link?
I've just come across this, which is interesting as it's the right parish for the offences. Sadly no age given
Eunice Jones
Father: William Jones
Mother: Mary
Burial 5 Mar 1836, Ebenezer Chapel, Trevethin, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Hi Mabel,
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I think it is as you say, there are so many trees on Ancestry, all claiming to have Edwin Jones in them, and they could have copied the information across to their tree. I was sent information that a William and Eunice Jones were Edwin's parents but apparently it may not be the case. Unless someone has access to births in Wales early 1800 we will never know.
Thanks for your help.
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the start of registration of births was in 1837. Prior to that, all there are is baptisms and the majority of what is available online is baptisms from the established/Anglican church and are indexed by parish and county. Non-conformist records didn't always survive and not many are online.
So, sorry but no such record set as 'births in Wales early 1800'
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Thanks Osprey for your input on the parents of Edwin Jones and births in Wales 1800. I guess we will never know. Thanks anyway.
Lesley
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Did Edwin Jones leave a will in Australia? It might mention relatives. I traced my family in Wales mainly through censuses and wills. A good place to look into would be his youngest children. Since he and Sophie died while the children were still very young, who took care of them? Where did they grow up?
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Hello Ranne,
I have checked the NSW State Archives for Wills and there is none for Edwin Jones listed.
When Edwin died in 1862 and subsequently Sophia in 1867 the children's ages ranged from 24 James down to Elizabeth who would have been 5. I have no idea who would have looked after them as I have not gone down that path. James is the line I am following. An assumption is that maybe as they had no relatives (other than Sophia's parents and siblings) that the family closed ranks and helped each other. James being 24, Mary A 21 and Isaac 19. Maybe Ann and John Elliott (Sophia's parents lent a hand or took them in.
James married in 1875 Dora Coone
Mary A and Isaac there are too many to chose from.
Lesley
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FOR MABEL BAGSHAWE
previously you mentioned that newspaper articles mentioned ages of the three brothers i.e. 1798, 1805 and 1810. Can you give me a link to the newspapers you mention. We have since found that Samuel Jones married in 1830 in Chepstow to Margaret Reece. I checked a map and see that Chepstow is not far by car from Pontypool but back then by shanks' pony would have been a long way. They had 2 children. We dont know if she came to Australia but Samuel applied for them to come. On Samuel's application to bring his family out he stated his birth place as Gloucestershire.
If you could find those papers again and send me the link I would be most appreciative.
Lesley
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For James and Edwin see http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3391785/3391787/5/ - about halfway down the first column, beginning THE PONTYPOOL BURGLARS
Samuel - see http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3391329/3391332/23/ - starting at base of last but one column
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Hello Mabel
Regarding Edwin Jones transported to Australia for housebreaking.
I sent for his death record in Australia and it shows his father was William Jones, BUTCHER.
So I googled William Jones, Butcher, Monmouthshire and found a William Henry Jones who was a butcher in a place called Abertillery. Looking at a map this is not far from Pontypool where those Jones brothers committed their crimes. (Edwin and James Jones)
We have also found that a Samuel Jones lived in Chepworth, again not far away. He married a Margaret Reece and had 2 children. He applied for his wife and children to come to Australia.
Can anyone help with William Henry Jones?
Lesley