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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Breconshire => Topic started by: whdsn on Sunday 17 July 11 09:38 BST (UK)
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I'm looking for Elizabeth Jones born abt 1838 on the 1841 census. father could be Robert living in Pengenffordd.
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Do you have the 1851 census to confirm your findings of where she was living?
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Hi
I think she was with the Phillips family ( niece ) but i don't have access to the censuses now. other places were she was born on the censuses = Talgarth and Llangoose.
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The reason I was asking was because I had found that entry but wasn't sure if it was your Elizabeth, I noticed that Pengenffordd would be in the district of Talgarth also.
There appears to be eight Eliza/Elizabeth Jones in Breconshire around the area of Talgarth all within a couple of years of the date you are interested in, however, none of them have a father named Robert.
I think to move on you really need the details from her marriage certificate which will give her father's name and occupation - hopefully anyway, unless it is blank, which might be another lead.
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Hi MaryA
Can you do me a big favour before i send off for the marriage certificate. I found a couple of baptisms for Elizabeth, Margaret, and Gwenllian in brecon. parents John and Gwenllian.
I know Elizabeth named a couple of her children, Margaret, Gwenllian and John. Can you have a look on the 1841 census to see where this family were living.
Thanks wayne
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How about some clues. Where did the baptisms take place? When did the baptisms take place?
As you are aware Jones is one of the most common names in the United Kingdom so there has to be limitations at least geographically - and I don't mean just by county, but town - to undertake such a search even in 1851 and later censuses. In the 1841 census no relationships are given so it's even harder and it doesn't appear that they are in Talgarth - unless of course those children I am searching for have already died and so I'm missing the family.
before i send off for the marriage certificate.
I need to say that it's not just good practice to send off for the certificate, it's more or less essential, even if we did discover the family you are suggesting that would be just guesswork - in a big way with the name Jones, and although naming patterns often do come into it, it's not reliable and although it seemed an uncommon name to me, there are many Gwenllians - of various spellings.
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Here are the baptisms i found all in Saint Marys Tabernacle Welsh Wesleyan Brecon.
Margaret 27 may 1832, Gwen 13 sep 1834, Elizabeth 23 may 1837. parents John and Gwenllian.
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Again I must say that with a name like Jones my search has had to be restricted to a location and I have chosen Talgarth since Pengenffordd would appear to be within that district. Although there are John & Gwenllians, there are none with children of any of those names and ages in that immediate district.
I notice that Saint Marys Tabernacle Welsh Wesleyan Brecon is a Non Conformist church but is situated in Brecon. I'm not saying you are wrong but wouldn't it be more reasonable of the family to have baptised their children at the Bethlehem Calvinistic Methodist Talgarth Breconshire?
I am afraid I have done all I can, feel like I'm chasing my own tail searching for a family that you have no proof is yours. Without the marriage certificate and the father's name from it, I have come to a stop.
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Hi
The marriage certificate came today, Elizabeth's father was William a farmer. Elizabeth was in Cwmbrook at the time of her marriage
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The marriage certificate came today, Elizabeth's father was William a farmer. Elizabeth was in Cwmbrook at the time of her marriage
Please could you give further details from the marriage certificate
who did she marry, her age, the date & place of marriage, witnesses
all may help pinpoint her on the censuses with her father, as Mary A stated there are many many JONESES
Do you have her on the census with her husband? Do you know of any children they may have had
Here are two named Elizabeth with father William Farmer living in in Breconshire but cannot say for certain whether they relate to your Elizabeth
1851 Treborfedd
William JONES 45 Llan Talyllyn Breconshire farmer of 50 acres
Ann 25 Talgarth wife (2nd marriage perhaps) ???
William 15
ELIZABETH 13 (1838) Talyllyn
Margaret 13
Jane 11
Thomas 6
John 1 month
1841
HO107; Piece 1369; Book: 5; Civil Parish: Llangasty Tallyllyn; County: Breconshire; Enumeration District: 6; Folio: 5; Page: 4
William JONES 35 Farmer
William 10
Ann 7
ELIZABETH 5
Margaret 2
Or
1851 Blaine
William Jones 59 Llywell Farmer
Anne 50 Carmarthen
Howell 20
Thomas 15
ELIZABETH 13 (1838) Llywell
John 11
William 6
Plus servant & visitor both surname of Jones
this family living same place 1841
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elizabeth was 20yrs old when she married Thomas Daniel 29yrs old in the register office in brecon 1856. i can't read the witnesses the writing is faint.
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census numbers
1861 = RG9 PIECE 4214 FOLIO 107 PAGE 4
1871 = RG10 PIECE 5582 FOLIO 102 PAGE 3
1881 = RG11 PIECE 5461 FOLIO 99 PAGE 5
1891 = RG12 PIECE 4572 FOLIO 86 PAGE 3
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Thanks you for the further details
As 1861 census gives Elizabeth’s place of birth as Talgarth here’s a possibility
for 1851 census
1851 Penllan?el Langorse
HO107; Piece: 2489; Folio: 718; Page: 18
Elizabeth Jones 14 Talgarth Breconshire house servant NIECE
William Phillips 34 Llangorse Farmer of 79 acres employing (Labourer)
Amelia wife 31 Llanelly
John son 11 Llangorse
William son 8
Lydia dau 4
Here’s William & Amelia Phillips on 1841 census just in case they are related
HO107; Piece 1370; Book: 17; Civil Parish: Lower and Upper Llangorse; County: Breconshire; Enumeration District: 5; Folio: 10; Page: 13
Penllanawel
William PHILLIPS 25 Farmer
Amelia 25
John 2
I can’t see any Elizabeth Jones 1838 on 1841c living Talgarth/Penyenffordd Breconshire with father William farmer ???
Apart from the two census details I have already posted there is this also Elizabeth with father William Farmer - a possibility perhaps as she named two of her dau. Mary Ann & Gwenllian ???
1841 sorry can’t decipher name of Farm (T…va Ga…?)
HO107; Piece 1367; Book: 14; Civil Parish: Upper Penderyn Breconshire; Enumeration District: 21; Folio: 6; Page: 5
William Jones 35 Farmer
Mary 35
Elizabeth 15
Mary 12
Phillip 10
Catherine 9
Gwenlline 4
ELIZABETH 3 (1838)
Ann 2
All born this county ‘Y’
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Thank you for the information. The one you found William and Mary looks good. so it looks like Elizabeth's mother Mary could have been a Phillips or her sister married a Phillips if i'm right.
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Thank you for the information.
The one you found William and Mary looks good. so it looks like Elizabeth's mother Mary could have been a Phillips or her sister married a Phillips if i'm right.
This marriage could tie in with the 1851 census Elizabeth Jones Neice to Phillips
although it is only a submitted IGI entry
William JONES
Mary PHILLIPS
19/5/1837 Talgarth Brecon
As there's no relationships shown on 1841 census difficult to say, the other option could be to obtain details of one of the other childrens baptism record to ascertain mothers maiden name ???
there are two girls named Elizabeth living in the same household one born c1826 & the other c1838, so I would have presumed that this William & Mary would have a married around 1825
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Hi
The 2 girls named Elizabeth living in the same household makes me think that William remarried.
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mmm... a possibility
IGI submitted entries only - would need to be verified
Gwenllian JONES 11/9/1835 Penderyn Brecon
father William Jones mother Cecelia
marriage
William JONES
Cicely WILLIAMS
27/3/1827 Penderyn Brecon
a possibility as the family living Upper Penderyn 1841
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It looks like Gwenllian, Elizabeth and Ann are William and Mary's children. ( William's 2nd marriage ). Elizabeth, Mary, Phillip and Catherine are Cicely children ( William's 1st marriage )
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Hi Ladyhawk
I'm having trouble finding William and Mary's daughter birth record. Gwenlliam abt 1837
I found one but it is in LLandovery
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I found chistening Gwenllian Jones born 1835 William Jones & Cecelia on familysearch
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
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Thank you Ladyhawk so i was wrong with Gwenllian being Mary's daughter.
wayne
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Thank you for the information.
The one you found William and Mary looks good. so it looks like Elizabeth's mother Mary could have been a Phillips or her sister married a Phillips if i'm right.
This marriage could tie in with the 1851 census Elizabeth Jones Neice to Phillips
although it is only a submitted IGI entry
William JONES
Mary PHILLIPS
19/5/1837 Talgarth Brecon
I now have Elizabeth's birth certificate and william jones and mary phillips are her parents
As there's no relationships shown on 1841 census difficult to say, the other option could be to obtain details of one of the other childrens baptism record to ascertain mothers maiden name ???
there are two girls named Elizabeth living in the same household one born c1826 & the other c1838, so I would have presumed that this William & Mary would have a married around 1825
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I now have Elizabeth's birth certificate and william jones and mary phillips are her parents
Thank you for the update
1841 sorry can’t decipher name of Farm (T…va Ga…?)
HO107; Piece 1367; Book: 14; Civil Parish: Upper Penderyn Breconshire; Enumeration District: 21; Folio: 6; Page: 5
William JONES 35 Farmer
Mary 35
Elizabeth 15
Mary 12
Phillip 10
Catherine 9
Gwenlline 4
ELIZABETH 3 (1838)
Ann 2
All born this county ‘Y’
Using GRO indexes
Ann JONES mmn PHILLIPS
1839 J Quarter in BRECKNOCK Volume 26 Page 267
This marriage could tie in with the 1851 census Elizabeth Jones Niece to Phillips
although it is only a submitted IGI entry
William JONES
Mary PHILLIPS
19/5/1837 Talgarth Brecon
Further info. on the above marriage just in case you don't have these details
William JONES of the Parish of Talgarth, Farmer and
Mary PHILLIPS of the Parish of Llangorse, Spinster
Married by Licence with the Consent of all parties
William signed his name Mary made her mark (x)
In the Presence of Robert PHILLIPS and Ann JONES
Possible baptism for Mary
Mary PHILLIPS 31 Mar 1815 Llangorse Breconshire
parents Robert, occ Farmer & Elizabeth
and
William PHILLIPS 19 Jun 1813 Llangorse Breconshire
parents Robert, occ Farmer & Elizabeth
possible marriage
1812 marriage Robert PHILLIPS to Elisabeth WILLIAMS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGK1-GMDH
1851 Penllan?el Langorse
HO107; Piece: 2489; Folio: 718; Page: 18
Elizabeth JONES 14 Talgarth Breconshire house servant NIECE
William PHILLIPS 34 Llangorse Farmer of 79 acres employing (Labourer)
Amelia wife 31 Llanelly
John son 11 Llangorse
William son 8
Lydia dau 4
The marriage detail for William & Amelia
William PHILLIPS, f/a Farmer father Robert, Farmer
married 27 Jul 1839 at Talgarth
Amelia PUGH f/a father Thomas, Farmer
Witnesses Thomas Pugh (x), John Bowen
Both single, William made his mark (x) Amelia signed her name
for info 1841 census Llangorse perhaps related living next door to William Phillips & Amelia are
Robert PHILLIP 30, Farmer
Mary 40
Robert PHILLIP 66, Ind.
For info.
1861 census William & Amelia’s children John, William & Lydia PHILLIPS are in the household of Thomas PUGH & family
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7X6-XXG
Possible marriage banns for Robert & Mary
1831 marriage Banns Robert PHILLIPS to Mary SWITHIN
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCK9-DPK
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I now have Elizabeth's birth certificate and william jones and mary phillips are her parents. In may 1837 william was a farmer when he got married and was a labourer in september was elizabeth was born
Thank you for the update
1841 sorry can’t decipher name of Farm (T…va Ga…?)
HO107; Piece 1367; Book: 14; Civil Parish: Upper Penderyn Breconshire; Enumeration District: 21; Folio: 6; Page: 5
William JONES 35 Farmer
Mary 35
Elizabeth 15
Mary 12
Phillip 10
Catherine 9
Gwenlline 4
ELIZABETH 3 (1838)
Ann 2
All born this county ‘Y’
Using GRO indexes
Ann JONES mmn PHILLIPS
1839 J Quarter in BRECKNOCK Volume 26 Page 267
This marriage could tie in with the 1851 census Elizabeth Jones Niece to Phillips
although it is only a submitted IGI entry
William JONES
Mary PHILLIPS
19/5/1837 Talgarth Brecon
Further info. on the above marriage just in case you don't have these details
William JONES of the Parish of Talgarth, Farmer and
Mary PHILLIPS of the Parish of Llangorse, Spinster
Married by Licence with the Consent of all parties
William signed his name Mary made her mark (x)
In the Presence of Robert PHILLIPS and Ann JONES
Possible baptism for Mary
Mary PHILLIPS 31 Mar 1815 Llangorse Breconshire
parents Robert, occ Farmer & Elizabeth
and
William PHILLIPS 19 Jun 1813 Llangorse Breconshire
parents Robert, occ Farmer & Elizabeth
possible marriage
1812 marriage Robert PHILLIPS to Elisabeth WILLIAMS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGK1-GMDH
1851 Penllan?el Langorse
HO107; Piece: 2489; Folio: 718; Page: 18
Elizabeth JONES 14 Talgarth Breconshire house servant NIECE
William PHILLIPS 34 Llangorse Farmer of 79 acres employing (Labourer)
Amelia wife 31 Llanelly
John son 11 Llangorse
William son 8
Lydia dau 4
The marriage detail for William & Amelia
William PHILLIPS, f/a Farmer father Robert, Farmer
married 27 Jul 1839 at Talgarth
Amelia PUGH f/a father Thomas, Farmer
Witnesses Thomas Pugh (x), John Bowen
Both single, William made his mark (x) Amelia signed her name
for info 1841 census Llangorse perhaps related living next door to William Phillips & Amelia are
Robert PHILLIP 30, Farmer
Mary 40
Robert PHILLIP 66, Ind.
For info.
1861 census William & Amelia’s children John, William & Lydia PHILLIPS are in the household of Thomas PUGH & family
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7X6-XXG
Possible marriage banns for Robert & Mary
1831 marriage Banns Robert PHILLIPS to Mary SWITHIN
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCK9-DPK
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I found them on the 1841 census in Llanelly HO107 1366/39 Page 4. William's age is wrong