RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: hotfix123 on Wednesday 20 July 11 02:07 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I'm new to rootschat. Have spent the last few day's reading back over topics in Dublin, Tyrone and Antrim and I'm amazed at the wealth of info offered. So hoping somebody can point me in the right direction with this one.
There is a family story that my 2 x Gr Grandfather Robert Eccles is directly descended from the landed gentry Eccles family of Ecclesville, Fintona, Co. Tyrone. However, I have no evidence to back this up and the first definite record I have is his marriage to Mary Smith, St Paul's Arran Quay, 14th February 1849. No other relevent info is given on that record. I can find him resident at 11 Phibsboro on the 1851 Census, Griffiths Valuation and the 1862 Dublin Street Directory. His occupation is given as Prison Warder on several records, the earliest I have found being 1849. His youngest son was born 1862 and thereafter I lose him. I can find no record of his death suggesting he may have died pre 1864. I can find no burial for him although his wife and a couple of his sons a were later buried in Glasnevin.
I have a possible birth/baptism for him, Robert Eccles, Jan 1827, St Georges CofI Dublin, son of Cuthbert & Catherine Eccles, Eccles Street, Dublin (which would be at least partly consistant with the family story). Cuthbert & Catherine Eccles also had a daughter Mary Anne and the baptism of one of Roberts sons was sponsored by a Marianne Eccles (a tenuous connection).
If the Robert Eccles baptised St Georges 1827 is my Robert Eccles and given the status of Cuthbert Eccles Esq. of Eccles Street how likely is it that he would have married a catholic?
If this is him possibly he was buried in the Eccles family grave. I have no idea where that may be but maybe in St Georges Graveyard, Whitword Road. Does anybody know of surviving burial records for this graveyard?
Also, he was a prison warder in 1849. Mountjoy didn't open until 1850 so possibly he was in the Richmond Penitentiary but either way both prisons were close to his home. Could the fact he was a prison warder provide any leads?
What is the possibility that there was an obituary and if so where would one find it?
Thanks in advance
Phil
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To answer your last question first... the National Library of Ireland (Kildare Street) has a great collection of newspapers, but searching for a death notice, or obituary if there is one, would be difficult without some idea of when he died. Given the dates, I'd try Freeman's Journal and the Irish Times ..
The Dublin Heritage website (run by Dublin Libraries) has details of county Dublin graveyards and includes details for St. George's - see : http://dublinheritage.ie/graveyards/search.php
Transcript of burials for the cemetery are included on www.irishgenealogy.ie - see : Death/burials - St. George (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/search.jsp?name2=&name=&location=&dd=&mm=&yy=&submit=Search&sort=date&pageSize=100&type=D&diocese=DUBLIN+%28COI%29&parish=ST.+GEORGE¢ury=&decade=)
I see a few Eccles listed, but no sign of Robert..
Shane
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Thanks a million for that Shane.
I've used the link you posted and had a look through the burial listings for St George's Parish. The only Eccles listed are children and none of them are of the Eccles family I'm interested in. So it's back to the drawing board on that one.
Roberts youngest son was born 1862 and Robert was listed as deceased on the marriage record of his daughter in 1875. So he died sometime in that 13 - 14 year period. Yep, as you say, it would be very difficult to find a death notice/obituary in such a long timeframe. Are Thoms, or other directories, available for that time period that might help me narrow it down a bit.
I have also looked on FamilySearch but can't find a listing for the death of Cuthbert Eccles. I'm pretty sure there would have been an obituary for him that might have given me a clue but I've no idea when he died.
I found the following on-line in IGP Archives but it doesn't really take me any further.
"HEADSTONES AT CHRIST CHURCH, DELGANY
In Memory | of | JOHN CUTHBERT ECCLES | infant son of | Dr. CUTHBERT ECCLES |
East Hall, Delgany | died 16th Sept. 1902 | also | MARY ANN ECCLES | eldest
daughter of the late | CUTHBERT ECCLES | late of Eccles Street, Dublin | died
26th Feb. 1908 | also EMILY | wife of | C. ECCLES M.O.H. | who died 24th Aug.
1927 | Dr. CUTHBERT ECCLES | died 8th March 1938"
Oh well, I'll keep ploughing on. It wouldn't be any fun if it was too easy.
Cheers
Phil
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Roberts youngest son was born 1862 and Robert was listed as deceased on the marriage record of his daughter in 1875. So he died sometime in that 13 - 14 year period.
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I'll check Thom's 1863, 1868 and 1872 later on..
Do you have any addresses for the family as starting points ?
Shane
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Dont see any sign of Cuthbert snr's 1908 death in Ireland, but there is a possible index match for the death of Dr. C. Eccles (fits with the Mar 1938 date on the headstone ) :
Name: Cuthbert Eccles
Registration district: Rathdrum
Event type: Death
Quarter and year: Jan - Mar 1938
Age: 76 (est year of birth - 1862)
Volume : 2 / Page : 571
The district of Rathdrum starts just south of Delgany.
For notes on the details included on death certs see :
Details included on a Death Cert (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433043.0.html)
Shane
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Great Shane, thanks for that.
The family were resident ar 11 Phibsborough throughout this entire time period. Phibsborough is a small laneway to the right off Phibsborough Road going from Doyle's Corner towards Broadstone, parallel to Moncks Place. It was originally the entrance roadway to Phibsborough House.
I think the 1908 death refers to Mary Ann Eccles. I'm pretty sure Cuthbert Snr was long dead by then. I recall seeing his wife Catherine still resident Eccles Street and refered to as a widow circa 1870's but I can't remember exactly where I saw that reference. I'll have to dig it out of my notes.
Phil
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some Eccles entries from earlier Thom's
1852 :
Cuthbert Eccles esq, 44 Eccles Street
Mrs Eccles, 33 Pembroke Place
Mrs. Eccles, 17 Dominick St upper
Mr. Robert Eccles, 7 Phibsborough
Rev. Samuel Eccles D.D., 41 Gardiner Street Lower
Wiliiam Eccles, solicitor, 33 Eccles Street
most of the above (plus a few others) also appear in the 1850 listing, but there's no sign of Robert in that edition.
Shane
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Thanks Shane
As mentioned the earliest definate record I have of Robert is his marriage February 1849 which unfortunately doesn't give an address for him. I presume he took up residence in Phibsborough after his marriage and in fact Griffiths Valuation shows him residing next door to his in-laws, Smiths, in Phibsborough.
I have him on the 1862 Street Directory at this address and also his son was born here 1862 so I know he was alive about this time. His daughters marriage in 1875 still lists this address (as do some later records) as the family home and also lists Robert as Desceased.
He is listed as a Prison Warder on a several records including the 1875 marriage record suggesting he was still a warder at time of death.
But, unfortunately, that's as much as I know.
Phil
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Found a few things which I'll post in case they help-
Belfast Newsletter, 13 Oct.1877: Marriages- SEYMOUR-ECCLES- October 11, at St. Peter's church, Dublin, by the Rev. John Eccles, A.M., Rector of St. Peter's, Drogheda, assisted by the Rev. Canon Seymour, A.M., Precentor of Christ Church Cathedral, Commander J.C. Seymour, R.N., to Harriette, second surviving daughter of the late Cuthbert Eccles, Esq., Eccles Street, Dublin.
Marriage, 2 Aug.1854 at St. Peter's, Dublin, Rev. ? Eccles, eldest son of Cuthbert Eccles, Esq., Eccles? Street?. to Harriotte Frizell, Castle Thevin, Co.Wicklow.
Marriage, 21 Apr.1869 at Southampton (England), Major Cuthbert Eccles to Amy N. Pocock, Southampton. His brother Rev. John Eccles, St. Peter's, Drogheda.
Birth, 20 March 1874 at Woolwich, son to Major Cuthbert Eccles.
Birth, 11 Aug.1875 at Sunday's Well, Cork, daughter to Major Cauthbert Eccles, 2nd Battalion 4th King's Own Royal Regt.
Added- Cuthbert Eccles married Catherine Thomas in 1819-
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/0efea70889750
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Wow, Thanks Shane & Aghadowey You guys are a mine of info.
I thought a possible link to Cuthbert Eccles was slim but one which at least needed to be proven/disproven. The more I look at the info you have given me the more I question a link even further. Given the ESQ status of Cuthbert Eccles, The Army Major son and the strong Anglican Church connections I really wonder how likely it would be that a son of Cuthbert would become a relatively lowly prison warder married into a middle class catholic family.
I first heard the family stories from elderly relatives in New York 1970. These were grandchildren of Robert and at the time I dismissed their claims that we were descended from landed gentry. Specifically they claimed we were directly descended from Gilbert Eccles b 1602 Kildonan, Ayrshire, Scotland, d 1694 Shannock, Co. Fermanagh. They had a family tree (which I still have) purporting to show that Robert was a son of Daniel Eccles b 1787 Ecclesville Fintona, d 1869 Monaghan. However, there is no proof offered that this connection is correct and given that I have established other inaccuracy's in it I very much doubt it. I have found reference to Daniel Eccles will with an estate of £250 but no mention of a son Robert (though it is possible that he pre deceased Daniel). The name Robert recurs in almost every generation of the Ecclesville Eccles from the 1600's on.
So, while I have my doubts about somebody from either of the above backgrounds becoming a prison warder and despite some errors by the aging relatives they did have some accurate info relating to Eccles of Ecclesville that I feel sure must have been handed down through the family and that there is some truth in the stories.
Phil
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This family tree doesn't show any marriage or descendants for that Daniel Eccles- however, it may not be complete:
http://www.mcclintockofseskinore.co.uk/Descendants%20of%20Gilbert%20Eccles.pdf
From PRONI- "Letters of Administration (with the Will annexed) of the personal estate of Daniel Eccles late of Fintona County Tyrone Esquire deceased who died 12 January 1869 at same place were granted at Armagh to John Dickson Eccles of Ecclesville Fintona in said County Esquire one of the Children of Testator and as such one of the Residuary Legatees."
Daniel seems to have been very thorough about including family in his Will as well as mentioning relationships... brother Charles Edward Eccles, uncle Robert Gilbert Eccles, nephew Charles Eccles of Ecclesville, children of eldest son Daniel Eccles (dec'd), children of eldest daughter Susan Martha Ellis (James Soden? Ellis, James Eccles Ellis, Louisa Ellis), children of Anna Rebecca McKee, Gerrard Macklin Eccles & wife Isabella Letitia Eccles, children of son John Dixon Eccles.
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Thanks a million for that Aghadowey.
Had seen that tree and in fact the tree I have which seemingly was prepared by a professional genealogist in the 1960's and not quite as extensive does give the same info including indicating that Daniel was married but gives no details as to spouse or offspring except that it shows my line as being descended from Daniel through "Son Eccles b 1818". That is my main concern. It looks to me like somebody just tacked on my family through this mysterious "Son Eccles". Why, given the level of detail contained in the Eccles Tree up to Daniel, would the researcher not have Roberts name. As you point out Daniel was meticulous in preparing his will yet there is no mention of a son Robert or his family. I have long suspected that some unscrupulous researcher constructed the tree I have in order to confirm a preconceived notion and todays info reinforces that view. I think I can forget a link to Daniel.
I am also sceptical about a link to Cuthbert Eccles. I reckon maybe the only hope I have of a clue will be if there was a death notice so I will have to try to narrow down the possible dates of death.
Thanks a million for all your help Shane & Aghadowey. It has helped clarify a lot in my mind.
Cheers
Phil
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1858 - 11 Phibsborough, Mr. Robert Eccles
1863 - 11 Phibsborough, Mr. Robert Eccles
1868 & 1872 - no sign of Robert on that street, or in the index
Shane
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Many Thanks Shane.
That narrows my search down considerably..... 1863 - 1868.
One last question; Do you know if the online versions of The Freeman Journal & The Irish Times include the death notices or would it be better to go to the National Library. I realise the online versions are subscription but considering the amount of searching I might need to do to cover these 5 years it would be more convenient to do it online.
Thanks again
Phil
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Any of the online versions on the papers I've seen (Irish Times, Irish News Archive) include the full editions. You can usually browse the papers, by date and page as well as searching by keyword.
Shane
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There is a reference to a Robert Eccles warden giving evidence at a trial concerning a prisoner in" CORONER'S INQUEST".
Freeman's Journal , Thursday, March 4, 1852;
The inquest was held at the" Mountjoy Govt Convicts Prison."
He is a minor player in the incident.
PM
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Also a reference to his pension in Accounts and papers of the House of Commons 1863
(books.google.ie
1863 - Full view)
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Pastmagic you are a Wonder. Thanks a million for those posts.
Not only does it fill out the story of his life but I can now rule out him being the son of Cuthbert Eccles. The record of his pension gives his age at retirement in 1862 as 50 giving him a birth year of (circa)1812.
I now know he was a warder in Mountjoy and the 12yr 4mth service means he became a warder when Mountjoy first opened.
This info also means he was about 37 when he married Mary Smith in St. Pauls Arran Quay in February 1849. This seems quite old for a first marriage and also means he was 17 or 18 years older than Mary.
Brilliant. Thanks again
Phil
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Looking around for other possible father's for your Robert, long shot:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-6240457&j=1
Scope and content
ROBERT ECCLES.
Born CLONES, Monaghan.
Served in 43rd Foot Regiment.
Discharged aged 28.
Covering dates give year of enlistment to year of discharge.
Kilmainham Reference: A15908.
Covering dates 1808-1818
Held by
The National Archives, Kew
Legal status Public Record(s)
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Looks like Mounjoy was photographed extensively in 1857 in this archive - you may have to do a bit of detective work to track it down, but given the context, it would not surprise me if your Robert was photographed in this "experiment". PM
http://web.mit.edu/comm-forum/mit6/papers/Baylis.pdf
Or at least, the prisoners he was in charge of!
http://catalogue.nli.ie/Search/Results?daterange%5B%5D=publishDate&publishDatefrom=1800&publishDateto=1900&lookfor=%22+Mountjoy+Prison%22&type=Subject&submit=FIND
For a Contemporary Drawing of prisoners and guards.
Here is a R Eccles in Mountjoy 1850.
"the sessional papers" - again Google Books, an obscure lower case title.
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Great Pastmagic.
You've really fleshed him out for me. I've had a look at the photo's from 1857 (While Robert was in Mountjoy). They are photo's of prisoners only but fascinating none the less. Strange to think that some or all of them may well have had contact with Robert.
I've ordered the Military Records for Robert Eccles (b 1790, Clones). I have previously viewed other Military Records for Robert Eccles's with no joy but one never knows. Maybe this will be the one to unlock the mystery.
Your efforts are much appreciated. I'm amazed how much I've learned from this posting.
Cheers
Phil
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Delighted you found at least some answers on here. Scraping the barrel a bit here, but this is all I can think of.
Prison officers were sometimes recruited from ex army sources, so it is worth looking to see if Robert himself was ever in the army. Another possibility is that he was in the Royal Irish Constabulary, records are in the Dublin City library R I C Records 1816 - 1922
General registers of service, returns of personnel and intelligence notices, 1816 - 1922.
Service Nos. 1 - 4000, v. 1-2 (1816 - 1840) Reel Number: 856057
Also you could consider trying to track staff records for Richmond, Newgate etc. to see if he was working in another prison before Mountjoy.
Looking around for a birth for Robert has not turned up anything that leads directly to him, but there are certainly a lot of men of the right age to be his father of the surname Eccles in Ireland and abroad at the time.
Have you considered that he might have been an illegitimate son of either a male or female Eccles - I have a similar case with a Brabazon on my tree c. 1770 - not a trace of him anywhere, but he married one of my female line and lived right beside the main lot.
It might be worth having a look at any surviving wills or will abstracts of the Dublin, Tyrone and Clones Eccles to see if there is any mention of a natural son who might fit the bill, in the National Archives.
Mountjoy: the story of a prison by Tim Carey Collins Press, 2000, might be of interest, and it might be worth contacting the author.
PRONI holdings for this family include:
ECCLES Estate Fintona / Tyr Title deeds, etc. 1773 - 1823 D 674
ECCLES Anna Dublin Will c1816 D 2081
ECCLES family Cos. Fer,Cav,Tyr Gen. notes c1700 - 1914 T 1299
ECCLES family Dublin Gen. notes 1296 - c1963 D 2081
ECCLES family Enniskillen / Fer Pedigree 17c - 19c T 1185
ECCLES family Fintona / Tyr Leases, deeds etc 1752 - 1879 D 3850
ECCLES family Fintona / Tyr Corresp. etc 1869 - 1930 D 1385
ECCLES family Estate Fintona / Tyr Title deeds c1790 - 1830 D 1020
ECCLES family Estate Fintona / Tyr Title deeds 1659 - 1867 D 1048
ECCLES William Belfast Copy Will c1835 Mic/61add
Not digitalised, but if you did find a link to your Robert, than might make an interesting day out in Belfast.
House of Commons papers, Volume 51, 53 and 54 By Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons (free on google books) have lots of interesting general stuff about the Joy in the period Robert was there, for background info.
The Mountjoy prison archives themselves have survived and are in the National Archive. Whether Robert turns up there is anyone's guess, but you might find them of interest. National Archives call nos.: 1/11/1-4, 9-17, 29-33, 36 for 1845-1899.
There is one curiosity in the NLI:
Photostat' copies of a family record drawn up, c. 1850, by Anna Maria Dickson, together with pedigrees of the Eccles family, compiled, c. 1800. Originals in the possession of Rev. J. M. McWilliam, Dumfriesshire, Scotland.
She is on the tree you mention here on Post 10, I think, and this could possibly be the source for that tree.
Dublin: National Library of Ireland, Ms. 8371. But it would be a seriously long shot to find your Robert there.
Sorry there is not much concrete there!
PM
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Thanks a million once again Pastmagic. You're a star
You've certainly given me lots to think about. I had hit a wall with this maybe 2 years ago and concentrated on other areas of my tree. Now I have a far better idea of who he might be and some great leads. Who knows where they'll lead.
Cheers
Phil
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Hi
I found the RootsChat web site almost by accident and I was even more surprised to find your connection with Robert Eccles; my 2xgreat grandfather and his wife Mary nee Smyth/Smith.
I have been in contact with the owner of a Robert Eccles family tree on ancestry and I hope you are not that same person; if so, please, forgive me and spare my embarrassment.
Like you I have a family tree which was probably produced, I would guess, around 1890, together with other related papers and letters. Nearly all were given to me by my great uncle, Ted Eccles, in the 1960’s. He was living in Australia. I am wondering if the family tree I have is exactly the same as the one you have and that they are copies of the same original.
If this is the case, as I think it may well be, then our two families are probably very closely related.
I understand that some members of, Michal Edward Eccles, my grandfather’s siblings and possibly his parents, Edward Phoenix Eccles and Mary (nee Callaghan/Callanan), went to Canada and this may indicate yet another close link. Michal Edward was born in Broughton, Salford, Manchester in 1876.
The occupation of his grandfather on the certificate at his parents’ wedding is given as prison warder. Family tradition says he was a prison warder in the Castle, Dublin.
I look forward to hearing from you concerning what has been for me a very elusive family.
Best regards
David
PS
I’m new to RootsChat as you were back in July 2011.
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We had a robert eccles educated in Ballitore Quaker School 1753 we are trying to find information on students that attended this famous school