RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: Barrie Green on Friday 22 July 11 10:36 BST (UK)
-
I have just found out the names of some of the children of John Arbuthnott Smith and Augusta Mary Isabel Smith and these children were born in Ceylon, between 1879 and 1891. The family were back in England for the 1901 Census.
Their father was a tea planter of Rothes, Hatton, died in 1894 and is buried at Nuwara Eliya.
I would appreciate help in finding their births and full names, Have searched the Overseas Births with no luck.
Any suggestions?
Faith
-
If would help if you post the names and any details of the children you've found.
-
Thank you, aghadowey for your reply. I didn't want to appear too 'pushy' by listing all the names.
SMITH family - children of John Arbuthnott Smith and Augusta Mary Isobel Griffin whose marriage I cannot find in England and I wonder if she met him over there. John was a Bank Clerk in Edinburgh, Scotland in 1871 C and Augusta was a Private School Teacher in Essex in 1871 C.
The Smith children are -
John Arbuthnott (Jnr) b. 1879,
Alfred Cecil Arbuthnott b. 1881 (may have ended up in Queensland, Aust),
Robert Arthur b. 11 May 1882 (marriage 11/2/1917, Kensington, London, gives John A Snr., dcd Tea Planter as his father,
Harold b, 1886,
Emma b. 1887,
Frederick Augustus b. 1891.
Grateful thanks - Faith
-
Hi just joined following on from your contact earlier in week. Studying this thread I think I can fill in a bit more detail.
I note that you refer to John Arbuthnott jnr so I assume that John Arbuthnott snr must be my Gt Gt Grandfather as already advised. I note that you have a record of jnr found in Edinburgh census as a bank clerk that would tie in with father being a banker in Dundee. I sounds as though there were at least 2 brothers inc my Gt Grandfather (Charles Frederick Smith). I have seen a studio (in Dundee) photograph of 2 young men teeing up to play golf circa 1870 and didn't know I assume that banking didn't suit John jnr, however Charles Frederick remained in banking although i know little further about him except that he married Catherine Eliza Caldwell and so far I know they only had one daughter Caroline who went to marry my grandfather George Hay who was a solicitor who also became a banker rising to secretary of the Commercial Bank in the 1950s. My guess would be that he was assisted by his father-in-law in the early years as he came from a humble farming background just outside Kinross. I can also confirm that my grand parents were very keen golfers!
I really must make the effort to go back to Arbuthnott and ask a few questions starting with the family as I suspect that my GT Gt Gt had a leg up to start his banking business. Remember that Dundee had strong links with the colonies ie Jute, Tea, Marmalade etc.
-
Welcome to Rootschat! I'm interested in what you have written and will contact you through the system I used before.
Faith
-
New members usually need 3 posts to use PM system sio medge might need 2 more posts to contact you by PM.
-
I think I can give a little more detail. John Arbuthnott Smith was my great grandfather, and I have the family bible in front of me with all the names and dates of birth.
John Arbuthnott Smith born 9 May (no year given)
Augusta Mary Isabel Griffin or Smith born 4 July (no year given) Married 19 February 1878
Chiuldren of above
John Arbuthnott Smith born 9 December 1878
Alfred Cecil Smith born 7 January 1880
Charles Owen Smith born 15 April 1881
Robert Arthur Smith born 11 November 1882 died Birchington, Kent 1968 approx
Harold Smith born 20 September 1885 killed in action 1916
Emma Caroline Smith born 6 January 1887 died in Worthing 1960s.
Frederick Augustus Smith born 29 October 1890
My grandfather always said that J.A. was bored to death clerking in Edinburgh and went to Ceylon initially to plant coffee (which was a failure) then tea (which was fine for a while) but after a crop failure took a job as Manager of the brewery in Nuwara Eliya, where he died and his grave is still well kept. I have a couple of sepia pictures of the family and the farm, with the children and servants all together (the Scots tea planters were not as standoffish towards the locals as the English civil servants down in Colombo).
After the death of their father, they were shipped to England where they lived with "Aunt Doll" who seems to have been a kindly soul, but how they came to be in Essex when their father was Sottish and their mother Welsh, I am not sure, although one of your answers gives a clue.
Harold was killed in the First World War, Emma never married but lived to a ripe old age and Robert ran away into the jungle and survived for a week at 7, ran away again and joined the army (underage) at 15, fought in the Boer War, and rose through the ranks to Colonel in the First World War (MC) and found life rather boring when not on active service. He died in the 1960s.
Going further back, the Dundee connection does not surprise me. On our side of the family, we all have signet rings with a Gaelic inscription "Caraid am Faim" and the family were supposed to be near Alyth in Perthshire in the 18th century.
-
How wonderful yetanothersmith, will try and contact you with a personal message. You can't contact me until you have 3 postings.
How are you connected? I am through George Smith's 2nd marriage to Frances Helen Mackie.
I really appreciate your data and will be in contact soon.
Faith
-
Apologies if I am not the best communcator on this as very busy with wife's business just now, numerous deadlines!
All of this is most interesting. This of course relates to my mothers side of the family and to quote my mother from the past "there are very few of us on our side of the family". She was also an excellent communicator and I regret I paid little attention! However to fill in a bit
My mother was born Margaret Jean Arbuthnott Hay in 12 Moston Terrace. Edinburgh of George Hay (Solicitor) and Caroline Hay (Smith) 24/5/1923. She had an older sister Sheila who was v bright and got a first in History from Oxford - born 06/03/1919 at 1 Braidburn Terrace, G Hay described at that time as Law agent & Corpl Royal Garrison Artillery. They had married 31/06/1914 in Edinburgh in Free Kirk
Caroline Smith was born 19/07/1885 at 8 Mentone Terrace Edinburgh of Charles Frederick Smith and Catherine Eliza Smith (ne Caldwell) married Liberton Parish Church (Newington Edinburgh) 11/07/1882.
I am aware of a couple unexplained relations and I can't confirm where they fit in at the moment.
My mother had acousin Alec Walker who had a gents taylors in Edinburgh with a son Colin and daughter Rosemary and she used to write an Uncle "Pat" in NSW up unit the 1970s when she lost touch - they were farmers - all I remember is that they were always tending their dams to consrve water!
-
Further thoughts
Alyth is very close to Glamis so this could explain how JA snr was able to secure the estate banking. Broughty Ferry incidentally was always the posh part of Dundee altough a few miles east.
You mention George a being an "overseer" at Arbuthnott however this would not be the term used. I think it would have a Grieve although I think factor would be today's term definition below
GRIEVE, n., v. Also †greive; †greave (Abd. 1845 P. Still Cottar’s Sunday 37), †greeve; †grive (Ork. 1795 P. Fea MS. Diary (7 Nov.)). [gri:v] I. n. 1. The overseer on a farm, a farm-bailiff. Gen.Sc., rare in Bwk., Rxb. Also in Nhb. dial.
*Sc. 1721 J. Kelly Proverbs 5:
A good Grieve is better than an ill Worker.
*Ayr. 1787 Burns Add. Beelzebub 33–34:
Your factors, grieves, trustees, and bailies, I canna say but they do gaylies.
*Inv. 1795 Stat. Acc.1 IV. 135:
A grieve (or overseer) has from £4 to £7, besides his shoes. Women-servants have from 8s. to 20s. besides 3 pair of shoes.
*Slk. 1798 R. Douglas Agric. Slk. 241:
[They] commit the cultivation of their fields and their marketings to bailiffs, here called overseers or grieves.
*Sc. 1814 Scott Letters (Cent. ed.) III. 460:
My children are . . . “rinning about my grieve assures me like mad nolt.”
*Ork. 1880 Dennison Sketch-Bk. 9:
Paetie Linklid — that wus the grieve.
*Sc. 1896 Stevenson Weir of Hermiston i.:
His grieve, that had been his right hand in many a left-hand business.
-
This a link to RBS history of banking site. George Hay was very senior prior merger with National Bank in 1959 when it became National Commercial before being taken over by RBS
http://heritagearchives.rbs.com/wiki/Commercial_Bank_of_Scotland_Ltd%2C_Edinburgh%2C_1810-1959
-
Thank you Medge, all what you have sent adds "flesh on the bones' of names and dates and I have found it all most informative.
Faith
-
Barrie Grren or Faith: Thanks for sending a personal message. Unfortunately I cannot see it....it comes up as "not allowed".
I am interested where you fit in to the scheme of things, who was George the son of; was it one of the 7 children listed?
I guess you may have to send the personal message on the open board unless it is very private. If it is, please let me know how to gain access
thanks a lot
yetanother
-
As I posted earlier in this thread-
New members usually need 3 posts to use PM system.
-
A couple more random facts/suppositions:
Both Alf and Charlie went off abroad during the early years of the century......I think one went to Australia and one to South Africa but I cannot be sure.
Harold and Robert would have married two sisters, but Harold's death during WW1 put paid to that.
If you wanmt to know more about Augusta Griffin, whom you have tracked down to teaching in Essex, I believe that she was born in Chester, the daughter of the owner of a salt mine in North Wales. I am pretty sure that the marriage took place in Ceylon.
Lastly, don't expect any birth certificates; they were not issued in Ceylon at the time. Baptism records and family bibles hold what information there is.
cheers
yetanother
-
My fault, yetanothersmith, I thought you were able to receive my Personal Message as you showed 3 postings. Perhaps if you just acknowledge this, and your tally goes up to 4 I'll try again as you have all that data in the Bible and I can fill in the odd gap.
Yes, Charles Owen Smith was in the Peninsular War (Boer?) then in WW1 in an Australian Ambulance Corp and if we ignore the horrific scenes he must have had to deal with in France at the time, the worst that happened to him seemed to be mumps! There are 24 pages of his War Record (with born in Colombo in) in the Australian AIF. He appeared not to marry and died in Brisbane Australia in 1960.
Alfred Cecil (Arbuthnott) Smith arrived in Australia in 1913, on a ship ex New York, was a farmer in Mackay, Queensland, Australia, used as Next of Kin by brother Charles Owen during WW1. At some time he married Sarah Amelia Patterson, had one daughter Edna Joyce, and Alfred died in 1959, a year before Charles Owen.
A researcher at the Mackay, Queensland, Family History Society has been wonderful and has just sent me a photo of Alfred and Sarah's grave plus other details. She cannot find theri marriage in UK, Queensland or in New South Wales Australia. Nor the birth of their daughter!
So as son as I can finally PM you to swap email addresses, I am happy to pass on what I have if you would like it. I would love to know who you are descended from? Have been trying to work it out? Was it Robert Arthur?
Looking forward to hearing from you
Faith
-
As your latest arrived at 3.30 in the morning, I am imagining that you are in Australia (unless you are an insomniac).
I would be very pleased to get a personal message, and would love to know where George fits in!
One other thing about Charlie (which always amused the rest of the family) ...... he signed the pledge! (swearing never to touch a drop of liquor for life). I wonder whetehr he kept that up!
-
Well done yetanothersmith - you are now a '4'!!!
I'm in New Zealand, 12 hours ahead of the UK , hence the unsociable arrival of postings!
It's 9. 45 a.m. here at the moment but will send you a PM later today and see if it all works! I've copied off my original PM to you to help me remember what I sent you!
Can't help on the alcohol problem though! Now that would have been a bit of a disaster when in control of an ambulance on the muddy fields of Flanders!!!
Faith
-
Hey, I am new to this site. Just discovered the 2011 posts of yetanothersmith,medge169, and Barrie Green regarding the John Arbuthnott Smith family. My husband is the grandson of Alfred Cecil Arbuthnott Smith. His mother was Edna Joyce.
I was hoping for an exchange of information. I am looking for Edna Joyce's origins. In her lifetime she was never able to determine if her parents were her natural parents or she was an inter family adoption, or adopted through the usual channels.
Looking forward to making contact.
Liz from Australia