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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Glouc Man on Monday 25 July 11 17:13 BST (UK)
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Can anyone work out the name of Alice ..... (4th from the bottom)?
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Wylie???
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shes seems to be Henry's sister (as you'd expect relationship to be in the census) - as Charlotte Legg had no sister Alice I could see ..
Unfortunately I cant find the Budds early enough to be at home with parents (Henry in the Army in 1871), altho there is an Alice a bit older than seen in 1891, with an Annie Budd in Clapham Christchurch - both pupils in the 1871 census and also born Southampton.
RG10/Piece: 696 Folio: 54 Page: 4
By 1901, Henry has switched to William, and lost 10 years - PoB now Newton Abbot, Devon .....
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Henry Budd was actually named William Henry Budd and was in the army out of the country in 1881. I have never been able to find his birth or that of Alice. I do have his marriage certificate and it says his father was Robert Budd, but it has not helped. I do know he was a Methodist, he married in a Methodist Chapel and it says 'Methodist' on his army papers. I also know his mother's name began. There was a Robert and Loveday Budd but they do not seem to fit the bill.
If I can work out Alice's name, I can find her marriage and hopefully get new leads.
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What was Charlotte's maiden name? and were they both batchelor/spinster at marraige?
Just thinking of possible "sister" perms - Alice could be Henry's sister, or 1/2 or step sister, or sister in law ---
I know this isn't a lot of help!
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she was 'Legg' .... pretty sure that Alice was William Henry's sister - at least the OP is !
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I can see a marraige of Henry Budd and Charlotte Legg -- but the OP says that Henry was actually William Henry so is this the correct marraige?
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Think so - the PoB in 1891 and 1901 is correct.
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He died a short time after the 1891 census from Typhoid and is William Henry Budd on his death certificate. He died at his Legg in-laws in Elstead, Surrey. His son called him WHB too when he married.
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Before I read any of the replies I saw it as Elysee although now I've seen others see Wylie that looks more likely. :)
Heather
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If it is Wylee, then the 'W' is very different from how he writes the 'W' in 'Wife'.
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Judging by how he writes 'M', I think the first letter looks like 'N' - but then the rest of the name does not make sense!
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I still see Wylee if I view it on its own but I agree, the first letter looks nothing like other W's on the page.
I can't see another letter on the page which does look similar. What about on the preceding and subsequent census pages, any clues there?
the FindMyPast transcriber couldn't work it out either, she's just Alice? - no help at all!
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He died a short time after the 1891 census from Typhoid and is William Henry Budd on his death certificate. He died at his Legg in-laws in Elstead, Surrey. His son called him WHB too when he married.
He did?
so who is the WB with Charlotte in the 1901 census?
By 1901, Henry has switched to William, and lost 10 years - PoB now Newton Abbot, Devon .....
1901 census of Bermondsey RG13/Piece: 388 Folio: 8 Page: 7 @ 47, Snowsfields
William Budd 37 Head born Devon, Newton Abbott: Bricklayers Labourer
Charlotte Budd 40 Wife Surrey, Elstead: 'Coffee & Dining Rooms'
Reginald Budd 16 son Hants, Aldershot
John Budd 3 son Bermondsey
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It looks like "Wysee" to me - not a real name I think though.
I notice that in 1881 an Alice BUDD b abt 1863 Chobham Surrey (not a match on birthplace I know) is in service in Chiswick. Also in the household is a boarder, Percy MYSEY(?) b abt 1861 Cheshunt Herts. Might they have married one another?
1881 ref: RG11/1352/15/23.
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With the confusion in William Henry Budd's names, age, place of birth and whether he was with his wife or dead in 1901, it sounds to me as though deciphering Alice's married surname might be the least of the OPs worries.
In fact this sounds like it might maek a scavenger hunt ;D
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To the OP: Please can you give us ALL the info from the marraige cert - where, when , names, ages, father's details, licence, banns, witnesses, the whole caboodle? Only then will we know whether we're looking at the right marraige on freeBMD, and we might be able to find out some more info based on statements rather than guesswork.
Ditto the death cert - what are the finer details on that?
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This looks like Charlotte's remarriage - so William in 1901 is 2nd hubby who has taken his wife's first married name!
Marriage, 24 Feb 1895, St Paul, Bermondsey
William George CHUDLEIGH 30 Bach Labourer of 149 Weston St, father William CHUDLEIGH (occupation illegible)
Charlotte BUDD 35 Widow of 47 Snowsfield, father John LEGG (deceased)
Witnesses: Albert Henry LEGG, Henrietta GR[.......](?)
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Is the first letter of the name similar to the first letter of the address at the top of the page, but with the loop shorter because of the space restriction?
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It looks like "Wysee" to me - not a real name I think though.
I notice that in 1881 an Alice BUDD b abt 1863 Chobham Surrey (not a match on birthplace I know) is in service in Chiswick. Also in the household is a boarder, Percy MYSEY(?) b abt 1861 Cheshunt Herts. Might they have married one another?
1881 ref: RG11/1352/15/23.
Percy can be seen as MEYERS in 1861 RG9/Piece: 802 Folio: 148 Page: 10 Cheshunt
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Whats a Scavenger hunt ???
In fact this sounds like it might maek a scavenger hunt
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It looks like "Wysee" to me - not a real name I think though.
I notice that in 1881 an Alice BUDD b abt 1863 Chobham Surrey (not a match on birthplace I know) is in service in Chiswick. Also in the household is a boarder, Percy MYSEY(?) b abt 1861 Cheshunt Herts. Might they have married one another?
1881 ref: RG11/1352/15/23.
Percy can be seen as MYERS in 1861 RG9/Piece: 802 Folio: 148 Page: 10 Cheshunt
Yes - actually MEYERS I think, tying into an Edmonton birth reg Dec qtr 1860.
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Scavenger hunts - a weekly event in the Common Room where someone posts a puzzle and RCers try to solve it. Organised by Tephra. Check out the common room!
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How is that different to this ?
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,358572.0.html
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Yes, (William) Henry Budd did die in 1891. Yes, his widow did re-marry Chudleigh. And yes, they do call themselves Budd on the 1901 census!
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One of the differences between this and a scavenger hunt is that in the latter, people are encouraged/expected to give all the info they have right from the start ::)
Perhaps I'm being a bit unfair on the OP as the first post only asked for opinions on deciphering a name! But there have been v few suggestions re that and lots of posts about trying to trace Mr Budd. I think if we want to continue to do the latter (and more to the point, if the OP wants us to!) -- then we need the info that may help.
I'm bowing out here - good luck in your hunt, OP, if the info is there then someone on RC will be able to find it for you! - but if you do want more help in trying to uncover the Budd background, then you'll need to put more info on the board. And do have a look at the scavenger hunts, one could b euseful to you!
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Well yes, I did just want the name! But I do appreciated the other ideas.
If it helps, here are William Henry Budd death; (William) Henry Budd marriage and the birth of my grandfather.
Have removed the images as I understand there could be copyright issues!?
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Well yes, I did just want the name! But I do appreciated the other ideas.
If it helps, here are William Henry Budd death; (William) Henry Budd marriage and the birth of my grandfather.
Have removed the images as I understand there could be copyright issues?! Marriage
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You can post part of the certs but not the whole certs (I think)
or you can just give us the info ;D
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
OK, hope you right - here is an edited view of the census records and WHB death.
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Here is (William) Henry Budd marriage (Aldershot Methodist Church) and the birth of my grandfather.
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Henry BUDD's Army service record shows his next-of-kin (when he joined up in October 1870) as his mother, Mrs L BUDD of Infirmary Road, Sheffield. The record is definitely his as it also lists his 1880 marriage to Charlotte LEGG. His religion is given as Wesleyan, birthplace Southampton, age (in Oct 1870) 18 years __ months. Former trade or occupation: baker.
The reason he does not appear in the English census in 1881 is that he was serving in Bermuda from 30 October 1880 to 22 November 1883.
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Interesting, sure I saw a Budd family headed by a Robert, in Sheffield 1861 ?
will try and find it again - I'm sure there was a younger sibling called Alice too ...
as you were - the wife is an Alice, and the lad of WHB's age is actually called Harry, born Sheffield .... but as ever with this game - who knows ;)
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as you were - the wife is an Alice, and the lad of WHB's age is actually called Harry, born Sheffield .... but as ever with this game - who knows ;)
I saw them too - but the lad was still at home in 1871...
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Well -- Kelly's directory for Sheffield in 1893 apparently lists a Robert Budd (+ co), brewer, of Strong Arm brewery, Infirmary rd, Sheffield ---
ETA -- and he was there in 1865, when the Sheffield Flood happened
http://www2.shu.ac.uk/sfca/claimSummary.cfm?claim=5-4272
and 1857 - White's directory - which shows the brewery address as Infirmary Rd but the home address as Summerville Terrace, Whitehouse Lane
I know it's the wrong profession according to the marraige cert, but how many Robert Budds were there on Infirmary Rd, Sheffield??
maybe worth checking out - the co-incidence would suggest that there may well be a family link of some nature.
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yes, that's the HEAD - but that wasn't the address in 1871, nor does the Wife / Mother have initial 'L' - being an Alice ...
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The 1861 Robert and Alice Budd lived in Birkendale View, which is just up the hill from infirmary rd (and would have been pretty posh in those days, I htink!)
"Harry", their son age 8, was apparently born in Sheffield, which doesn't tie in with Henry Budd's given POB in later censuses -- HOWEVER Robert's POB was Liss, Hampshire - which is another co-incidence with Henry's stated county of birth, isn't it?
Don't forget that Harry is an acknowledged and still-used pet version of Henry (as per our current royals!)
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Don't forget that Harry is an acknowledged and still-used pet version of Henry (as per our current royals!)
Indeed - but this Harry BUDD was still with his parents in Sheffield in the 1871 census, whilst "our" Henry BUDD was enumerated in Army barracks at Stoke Damerel (RG10/2129/81/7).
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as pointed out earlier 'Harry' was there in 1871, when WHB had already enlisted in the Army ... and his mother was Alice, which doesnt begin with an 'L'....
best not to try and make things fit really :P
there again, Harry had a cousin Laura, also from Liss ...
beat me to it Anna ...
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I know, I'm not trying to "make things fit" - but even if this is not Henry's family (+ it would seem not if he's enumerated with them in 1871! shame! - what is this other Harry's occupation in 1871? I can't view images at work)), there could be a family link. It's not that common a name to find 2 people of the right sort of age in the same road in the same town.
There is another Robert Budd who I saw in 1841 as a grocer's assistant in 1851 btw - pob given as Newton Abbot but living in Southampton - worth checking out.
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Henry BUDD's Army service record shows his next-of-kin (when he joined up in October 1870) as his mother, Mrs L BUDD of Infirmary Road, Sheffield. The record is definitely his as it also lists his 1880 marriage to Charlotte LEGG. His religion is given as Wesleyan, birthplace Southampton, age (in Oct 1870) 18 years __ months. Former trade or occupation: baker.
The reason he does not appear in the English census in 1881 is that he was serving in Bermuda from 30 October 1880 to 22 November 1883.
Thanks, I do have his army papers. Everyone is going to a lot of trouble. I have actually covered a lot of this ground already. The Sheffield link is intriguing but I have never really got anywhere with it.
My pet theory is that they were perhaps nephew and niece of Robert Budd by a sister, and so not actually called Budd at all!
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tis a possibilty, wouldnt be the first time I'd seen a relative used as the 'Father' on a Marriage Certificate.
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WHB was buried in Elstead, Surrey Cemetery 2 Jul 1891. Does anyone have access to any local newspapers that might have reported the funeral and mentioned relatives?
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prob best to start a new thread for an obituary...... in the Surrey Board - others will see it, who might not visit this Deciphering Board....
I see that Robert Budd (the one in Sheffield) had two sisters in 1841 Liss, Elizabeth and Emma ...and a Martha whose married name is Moore in 1851 Southampton St Mary - and a youngest one c1844 called Laura.
Elizabeth & Laura are staying with Martha in 1851 HO107/Piece: 1669 Folio: 608 Page: 22
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Henry BUDD's Army service record shows his next-of-kin (when he joined up in October 1870) as his mother, Mrs L BUDD of Infirmary Road, Sheffield. The record is definitely his as it also lists his 1880 marriage to Charlotte LEGG. His religion is given as Wesleyan, birthplace Southampton, age (in Oct 1870) 18 years __ months. Former trade or occupation: baker.
The reason he does not appear in the English census in 1881 is that he was serving in Bermuda from 30 October 1880 to 22 November 1883.
Do you think the next of kin was in 1870 or perhaps when he was discharged in 1889?
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Do you think the next of kin was in 1870 or perhaps when he was discharged in 1889?
Good question - it's hard to tell but it seems to be initialled by the same officer who signed off his 3rd class certificate of education in 1872, and the 1880 marriage, but not the other "Nil" entries on the page which presumably must have been entered at the end of his service.
One would expect a soldier to have NOK of some sort on his records throughout service (and after marriage NOK tends to be the wife), but I agree that one can't be sure that the entry was made immediately upon enlistment.
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wonder whose son this lad is -
a tad too old really, but shown as Rhoda Budd's (the mother of Robert and the 4 daughters mentioned) Grandson in Liss.
1861 census of Liss RG9/Piece: 700 Folio: 99 Page: 14 @ Infants School, Liss
Rhoda Budd 64 Head Widow born Liss: SchoolMistress
Henry Budd 11 Grandson born Liss
Census age possibly wrong :-
Births Jun 1852
BUDD Henry Petersfield 2c 100
Budd Henry Petersfield 2c 110 looking at the image this is also Page 100
Rhoda's dau Laura is with Robert Budd in Sheffield. Cant see Emma (altho theres a possible 1858 death, Petersfield) or Elizabeth in 1861...
So, in summary this Henry, born 1852, matches YoB for WHB...
His Grandfather was called Robert (Blacksmith I recall)
His Uncle also a Robert, a Brewer up in Sheffield.
He has 4 potential Aunts/Mothers if he is a Grandson of Rhoda - Martha (Moore), Elizabeth, Emma and Laura - the latter seen in Sheffield with Uncle Robert in 1861.
There is a link in WHB's Army Records to Sheffield.
Laura is the only one with initial 'L', but too young to be his mother ...
and sadly, it doesnt help with the sister Alice seen in 1891 it seems ...
What a pity that the Census is just a one-night snapshot in 10 years!
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There is of course the possibility that the initial L in Mrs L BUDD's name was that of her husband (the convention at the time being that a married woman was formally referred to by her husband's given names/initials as well as surname).
Though how this would fit in with Robert BUDD the grocer & baker named as father on Henry's marriage certificate is anyone's guess.
???
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GPWM :D
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wonder whose son this lad is - a tad too old really, but shown as Rhoda Budd's (the mother of Robert and the 4 daughters mentioned) Grandson in Liss.
1861 census of Liss RG9/Piece: 700 Folio: 99 Page: 14 @ Infants School, Liss
Rhoda Budd 64 Head Widow born Liss: SchoolMistress
Henry Budd 11 Grandson born Liss
Census age possibly wrong :-
Births Jun 1852
BUDD Henry Petersfield 2c 100
Budd Henry Petersfield 2c 110 looking at the image this is also Page 100
Rhoda's dau Laura is with Robert Budd in Sheffield. Cant see Emma (altho theres a possible 1858 death, Petersfield) or Elizabeth in 1861...
So, in summary this Henry, born 1852, matches YoB for WHB...
His Grandfather was called Robert (Blacksmith I recall)
His Uncle also a Robert, a Brewer up in Sheffield.
He has 4 potential Aunts/Mothers if he is a Grandson of Rhoda - Martha (Moore), Elizabeth, Emma and Laura - the latter seen in Sheffield with Uncle Robert in 1861.
There is a link in WHB's Army Records to Sheffield.
Laura is the only one with initial 'L', but too young to be his mother ...
and sadly, it doesnt help with the sister Alice seen in 1891 it seems ...
What a pity that the Census is just a one-night snapshot in 10 years!
I like this family, as in the 1841 census there is Robert and Rhoda with children Robert, Elizabeth, Emma and Albert.
Robert junior could be WHB's father.
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dont think so - I think one of the sisters was his mother ... and he already had a family up in Sheffield
... I'd get the Birth Cert and see who the mother was - my money's on Elizabeth or Emma.
PS. Alberts up in Sheffield too, working for a Wine & Spirit Merchant I think it was ....
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You mentioned Robert Budd, Grocer's Assistant in 1851, where was that?
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Not me - Annie I think - I had a look at the time, but found nowt.
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Ok, sorry.
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You mentioned Robert Budd, Grocer's Assistant in 1851, where was that?
Robert BUDD, 26, b Newton Abbot Devonshire, is a grocer's assistant in the household of Joseph HATCH, Master Grocer, at 17 Bridge St, Holy Rhood, Southampton in 1851: HO107/1669/1019/9.
NB from the 1841 census he appears to be a son of grocer James BUDD of Wolborough, nr Newton Abbot.
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Sorry, I have no idea how you give those census references.
I use FindMyPast. He's there as Robert Budd b Newton Abbot, Devonshire 1826, living at 17, Bridge Street, Holy Rhood, Southampton, occupation grocer assistant.
Other occupants:
HATCH, Joseph Married age 25 1826 Master Grocer Employing 4 Men born Missenden Buckinghamshire
HATCH, Mary Ann Wife Married age 20 1831 Grocer Wife born Southampton
MORGAN, Sarah Ann Servant Unmarried age 18 1833 House Servant born Portsmouth
ETA -- you beat me to it!
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Sorry, I have no idea how you give those census references.
On FindMyPast you'll find the reference information at top left of the image page (and immediately beneath the household information on the transcription page). It can then be used to find the relevant census entry regardless of which provider is used.
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This Robert Budd, Grocer's Assistant in Southampton is new to me and a good lead that I shall look into. Thanks very much.
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I can't find him on any subsequent censuses >:(
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See other thread here ...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=797842.msg6550809#msg6550809