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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: lavender123 on Tuesday 11 January 11 18:21 GMT (UK)

Title: margaret rudler
Post by: lavender123 on Tuesday 11 January 11 18:21 GMT (UK)
could anybody help me find any information, census or birth details on my g/g/grandmother margaret rudler, formerley simmons or summons born marach 1841 stepney. i would like to know who or parents were, and if they were on the 1940 census. thankyou very much. :)
Title: margaret rudler
Post by: lavender123 on Tuesday 11 January 11 18:24 GMT (UK)
sorry made a mistake, wanted for information on parents 1840-1841 census
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: CaroleW on Tuesday 11 January 11 18:30 GMT (UK)
Quote
census or birth details on my g/g/grandmother margaret rudler, formerley simmons or summons born marach 1841


Did she marry Edward Summons  If so - she could not be "formerly Simmons/Summons"

Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: lavender123 on Tuesday 11 January 11 18:35 GMT (UK)
yes, she did marry edward summons, but on malvinia  her daughter marriage certificate, it said simmons, and the tower hamlets bmd office told me sometimes they made mistakes when writing. so ii presume it is summons. thanks :)
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: suzard on Tuesday 11 January 11 18:36 GMT (UK)
Is this the birth reg you have for her??

Margaret Rudler
Mar qtr 1841
Stepney district
2 434

Have you made an error -and you mean she married Summons?? -not was formerly??

this looks like her baptism
Margaret Rudler
born 31 Dec 1940
baptised 29 Oct 1843
St Anne Limehouse Mx

address Limehouse

parents Richard Rudler and Elizabeth
Richard Rudler's occupation "Eating House Keeper"

Suz
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: CaroleW on Tuesday 11 January 11 18:39 GMT (UK)
Hi

Quote
formerley simmons or summons


The point I was making is that you were saying her maiden name was Simmons/Summons and asking us to find her with her parents.  We would therefore  have wasted time trying to find census entries under that name when in fact her birth surname was Rudler

 
Margaret Rudler Born 31.12.1840 baptised 29.10.1843 at St Anne Limehouse - parents Richard & Elizabeth.  Richard was an Eating house keeper
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: lavender123 on Tuesday 11 January 11 18:53 GMT (UK)
sorry, if i have got muddled up.  yes it was margaret summons formerley rudler,. i wanted to know about the rudlers, on margaret summons  fathers side the rudlers. thanks for your help,  :)
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: suzard on Tuesday 11 January 11 18:57 GMT (UK)
there is something very strange here

there are Banns read for a marriage
St Mary battersea Surrey
Edward Summons Bachelor (clearly writton as Summons)
Margaret Rudler spinster
both of this parish
25 Nov 1860
2 Dec 1860
9 Dec 1860

then there is a marriage

St Dunstan & All Saints Stepney
26 Dec 1865
John Christmas age 47 widower Occ labourer of 8 East Street father Edward Christmas labourer
Margaret Rudler age 25 SPINSTER of 5 Harrow St father Richard Rudler occupation Pastry Cook
witness Edward Dunn (or Lunn?)
Ann Dunn
all signed

so did the marriage to Edward Summons ever take place???

Why was Margaret still a spinster at the marriage to John Christmas

???

Suz
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: lavender123 on Tuesday 11 January 11 19:06 GMT (UK)
the information i have is my g/grandmother malvinia born feb/1863. mothers name margaret summons fomerley rudler.  father edward summons  barge builder/journeyman. adress at this time 29 causeway limehouse.
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: suzard on Tuesday 11 January 11 19:09 GMT (UK)
1841
Limehouse Causeway Limehouse Mx
Richard Rudler 30 Pastry cook no
Elizabeth 30 yes
Ann 5 no
Margaret 5mths yes
Mary banks???? 15 no
HO107 701 12 22 29 9

1851
Causeway Limehouse Mx
Richard Rudler Head M 45 pastry cook Perton Wilts
Elizabeth wife 45 Middlesex
Ann daughter Bermondsey Surrey
Margaret daughter 11 Limehoue Mx
HO107 701 12 22 29 9

Suz
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: CaroleW on Tuesday 11 January 11 19:20 GMT (UK)
Even stranger

1871 for Limehouse indexed as Christians 

John  Christmas 54 b Hastings - labourer
Margaret wife  29 b Limehouse
Henrietta   8 b Limehouse
Mali   6 (presumably Malvina) b Limehouse
John   4 b Millwall
Alfred 5 Months b Millwall
Richard Ridler (? Rudler) lodger widower 65 b Wiltshire labourer
RG10 Piece 587 Folio 98 Page 77
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: suzard on Tuesday 11 January 11 19:23 GMT (UK)
1861
92 Causeway Limehouse
Richard Rudler head M 55 pastry Cook Purton Wilts
Elizabeth wife 55 St Martins MX
Edward Dunn son in law M 34 Shipwright Ireland
Ann Dunn daughter M 24 bermonsey Surrey
John Dunn grandson 11 Poplar Mx
Mary Dunn granddaughter 9 Poplar Mx
Edward Dunn grandson 3 Ireland
Richard Dunn grandson 2 Scotland
RG9 288 100 1

so it seems Margaret's sister Ann married Edward Dunn and they were witnesses at marriage of Margaret to John Christmas

Still don't think Margaret went through with marriage -but can't find her in 1861???

Suz
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: CaroleW on Tuesday 11 January 11 19:30 GMT (UK)
Quote
the information i have is my g/grandmother malvinia born feb/1863. mothers name margaret summons fomerley rudler.  father edward summons  barge builder/journeyman. adress at this time 29 causeway limehouse.


Freebmd entry supports above info

Births March qtr 1863    Malvinia Summons     Stepney  1c 549
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: CaroleW on Tuesday 11 January 11 19:40 GMT (UK)
1881 - all shown under surname Christmas

John Christmas 63
Margaret  37
Henrietta   19
Malvina 17
John 15
Alfred   13
Elizabeth 8
Margaret   6
Fanny  2
RG11 Piece 451 Folio 85 Page 3
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: lavender123 on Tuesday 11 January 11 19:51 GMT (UK)
thanks carole. so why wasnt my g/grandmothers name malvinia christmas, if that was her fathers name, very strange ???
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: CaroleW on Tuesday 11 January 11 19:56 GMT (UK)
Because she wasn't Malvinia Christmas - she was Malvinia Summons - as per her birth cert.  John Christmas was not her father

Unless the enumerator was specifically told that a child had a different surname to the head of the household - the assumption was they were all the one family

She married as Malvina Summons/Simmons and presumably her fathers name is shown as Edward on her marriage cert
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Spidermonkey on Tuesday 11 January 11 20:30 GMT (UK)
so it seems Margaret's sister Ann married Edward Dunn and they were witnesses at marriage of Margaret to John Christmas
Suz

And Margaret was a witness to the April 12 1857 marriage of Ann Elizabeth Rudler to Edward Dunne.  Richard Rudler is again listed as a pastry cook (typing this is making me very hungry!), and Edward is a widower with father being Patrick Dunne, shipwright
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Spidermonkey on Tuesday 11 January 11 20:37 GMT (UK)
Woo hoo!  Got her in 1861!

1 Horthly?St, South side
Edward Summons  Head  MAr  25  BArge builder bn Battersea
MArgaret Summons  Wife  Mar  20  bn Limehouse

RG9; Piece: 288; Folio: 41; Page: 45 indexed as SUMMERS
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Ladyhawk on Tuesday 11 January 11 21:22 GMT (UK)
Great work spidermonkey

1881 - all shown under surname Christmas

John Christmas 63
Margaret  37
Henrietta   19
Malvina 17
John 15
Alfred   13
Elizabeth 8
Margaret   6
Fanny  2
RG11 Piece 451 Folio 85 Page 3

1891 census has Henrietta as stepdaughter

RG12/288/93/50 16 Rygate Street St George In The East, London

John CHRISTMAS 65 Sussex Gen Lab.
Margaret 53 Limehouse
Henrietta SIMMONS (Summons)? 28 Step-dau Box maker Limehouse
John CHRISTMAS 23 Millwall Carman
Alfred  " 19 Millwall Carman
Elizabeth 16 St. George in the East Dom Serv.
Margaret 15     "                               Dom Serv.
Fanny 13         "
Rose 10           "

1901c
5 Red Lion Street Wapping London
RG13 Piece:317 Folio:72 Page: 35     

Margaret CHRISTMAS Head Widow F 65 1836 Wapping
Elizabeth    "   Dau 25 1876 Tailoress Wapping
Margaret    "   Dau 22 1879 Tailoress Wapping
Rose           "  Dau 19 1882 Tailoress Wapping
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Spidermonkey on Tuesday 11 January 11 21:38 GMT (UK)
Henrietta Simmons marries William Donald Murray 7th June 1891 at St John the Evangelist, Stepney

william Donald Murray / 27 / Bachelor / Joiner / 17 Christian St / William Murray / Joiner
Henrietta Simmons / 28 / SPinster / 17 Christian St / Edward Simmons / Deceased

Witnesses were William Frederick Wickers and Mavina (sic) Callighan (her mark)
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Spidermonkey on Tuesday 11 January 11 21:49 GMT (UK)
RG13 Piece:317 Folio:72 Page: 35     
Margaret CHRISTMAS Head Widow F 65 1836 Wapping
Elizabeth    "   Dau 25 1876 Tailoress Wapping
Margaret    "   Dau 22 1879 Tailoress Wapping
Rose           "  Dau 19 1882 Tailoress Wapping

And guess who they are next door to - the recently widowed Henrietta Murray nee Summons
Henrietta Murray  Head  Wid  40  Living on own means  bn Limehouse
Amy Murray  Dau  9  bn Wapping
Henretta Murray  Dau  5  bn Wapping
Beatrice Murray  Dau  3  bn Wapping
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Spidermonkey on Tuesday 11 January 11 21:53 GMT (UK)
RG13 Piece:317 Folio:72 Page: 35     
Margaret CHRISTMAS Head Widow F 65 1836 Wapping
Elizabeth    "   Dau 25 1876 Tailoress Wapping
Margaret    "   Dau 22 1879 Tailoress Wapping
Rose           "  Dau 19 1882 Tailoress Wapping

And guess who they are next door to - the recently widowed Henrietta Murray nee Summons
Henrietta Murray  Head  Wid  40  Living on own means  bn Limehouse
Amy Murray  Dau  9  bn Wapping
Henretta Murray  Dau  5  bn Wapping
Beatrice Murray  Dau  3  bn Wapping

And on the other side of Henrietta is Mary Murray - her mother in law!
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Ladyhawk on Tuesday 11 January 11 22:01 GMT (UK)
Henrietta Simmons marries William Donald Murray 7th June 1891 at St John the Evangelist, Stepney

william Donald Murray / 27 / Bachelor / Joiner / 17 Christian St / William Murray / Joiner
Henrietta Simmons / 28 / SPinster / 17 Christian St / Edward Simmons / Deceased

Witnesses were William Frederick Wickers and Mavina (sic) Callighan (her mark)

sister Malvina witness

1891c 30, Red Lion Street, Shadwell
RG12 Piece:290 Folio: 98 Page: 36 

Thomas CALLAGHAN Head Married M 30 1861 Marine Stoker
Malvena Wife  28 1863 Wapping
Margaret Dau  4 1887 Scholar Wapping
Henrietta Dau 0 (4M) 1891 Wapping


1901c 21, Red Lion Street, St George In The East
RG13 Piece:314 Folio:23 Page:38       

Thomas CALLAGHAN 39 1862 Engineers Labourer Wapping
Malvana Wife Married F 37 1864 Wapping
Maggie Daughter Single F 14 1887 Wapping
Henrietta Daughter Single F 10 1891 Wapping
Thos Son Single M 8 1893 Wapping
Edward Son Single M 7 1894 Wapping
Dines Son Single M 5 1896 Wapping
Rose Daughter Single F 5 1896 Wapping
Annie Daughter Single F 2 1899 Wapping
Timothy Son Single M 0 (3 MOS) 1901 Wapping



Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Rade on Sunday 17 July 11 07:40 BST (UK)
I have Edward SUMMONS dying in Victoria Australia in 1883. Parents Abraham SUMMONS and Mary PACE.
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Rade on Monday 18 July 11 04:54 BST (UK)
A bit more detail of Edward SUMMONS.
He was born in Battersea in c 1836. Parents Abraham & Mary SUMMONS nee PACE.
1841 he was 5 in the census living with family
1851 he was not with his parents and 5 siblings. I cannot find him in 1851 census.
1861 he was 25 living with Margaret 'wife' nee RUDLER.
1861-62 had child Henrietta.
1863 had child Malvina
1865 Margaret married John CHRISTMAS as a spinster.
c 1869 Edward & Annie SUMMONS arrived in Australia.
1883 Edward SUMMONS dies aged 47 and is buried in Echuca, Victoria, Aust. Parents identified as Abraham & Mary SUMMONS nee PACE
Edward's Will leaves his estate to his wife Anne SUMMONS.
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Ladyhawk on Monday 18 July 11 11:09 BST (UK)
A bit more detail of Edward SUMMONS was born in Battersea in c 1836. Parents Abraham & Mary SUMMONS nee PACE.

c 1869 Edward & Annie SUMMONS arrived in Australia.
1883 Edward SUMMONS dies aged 47 and is buried in Echuca, Victoria, Aust. Parents identified as Abraham & Mary SUMMONS nee PACE
Edward's Will leaves his estate to his wife Anne SUMMONS.

Marriage
Abraham SUMMONS
Mary PACE
31/5/1835 St. Mary Newington Surrey

possible marriage FreeBMD

Edward SIMMONS/SUMMONS 27 bachelor  Barge Builder
father Abraham SUMMONS Market Gardener
Anne McCARTHY 27 spinister
father John McCARTHY Weaver
married 20/10/1863 St. Dunstan, Stepney, London




Christening St. mary Battersea London
Edward SUMMONS 3/4/1836
Abraham George  3/6/1838
William Isaac  6/6/1841
Everett 30/3/1845
Henrietta Jane  4/4/1847
Louisa Emma  born 15/1/1849 ch. 11/2/1849
Emily born 3/8/1851 ch. 24/8/1847
Benjamin Poley born 25/9/1853 ch. 16/10/1853
Parents named Abraham SUMMONS & Mary

1851 he was not with his parents and 5 siblings. I cannot find him in 1851 census.
1861 he was 25 living with Margaret 'wife' nee RUDLER.
1861-62 had child Henrietta.
1863 had child Malvina
1865 Margaret married John CHRISTMAS as a spinster.
c 1869 Edward & Annie SUMMONS arrived in Australia.



1861 he was 25 living with Margaret 'wife' nee RUDLER.
1861-62 had child Henrietta.
1863 had child Malvina
1865 Margaret married John CHRISTMAS as a spinster.


Lavender123 hasn't been back on line since January 2011 so don't know whether a marriage for Edward SUMMONS to Margaret RUDLER has been found the only other info. was posted by SUZARD
Banns read for a marriage
St Mary battersea Surrey
Edward Summons Bachelor (clearly writton as Summons)
Margaret Rudler spinster both of this parish
25 Nov 1860 2 Dec 1860 9 Dec 1860

and Margaret's marriage to John CHRISTMAS info. as posted by SUZARD

St Dunstan & All Saints Stepney
26 Dec 1865
John Christmas age 47 widower Occ labourer of 8 East Street father Edward Christmas labourer
Margaret Rudler age 25 SPINSTER of 5 Harrow St father Richard Rudler occupation Pastry Cook
witness Edward Dunn (or Lunn?)
Ann Dunn
all signed

so did the marriage to Edward Summons ever take place???

*edit* marriage details

Edward to Ann McCARTHY - Edward is noted as a batchelor on his 1863 to Ann his occupation is Barge Builder
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Rade on Tuesday 19 July 11 11:46 BST (UK)
My posts were just to pass on to Lavender 123 where her/his ancestor was buried.
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: lavender123 on Tuesday 19 July 11 17:55 BST (UK)
thanks for all the information about my great/great grandmother ithink . i have lost track of this, i think margaret had a daughter elisabeth, elisabeth  had a daughter malvinia, who married thomas callaghan. my g/g/ grandmother was either margaret rudler who was born about 1840 etc in st george in the east. i will have to get all the birth certificates out again and start again. thanks :)
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Rade on Thursday 21 July 11 12:24 BST (UK)
Hi Lavender,
Do you have any evidence that Margaret RUDLER did actually marry Edward SUMMONS?
ie a Marriage Certificate or other family info to confirm this marriage.
Rade
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: lavender123 on Thursday 21 July 11 16:05 BST (UK)
hi there, thanks for replying, all the information i have is 24th february 1863 malvinia is born, to edward summons  and margaret summons formerley rudler occupation says of edward is barge builder journeyman and the adress is 29 causeway,  limehouse, it is a bit of a mystery to me, i dont know wether they were married. as way back somebody looked at the census, and it said that abraham summons and wife emergrated to  australia?
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: lavender123 on Thursday 21 July 11 16:19 BST (UK)
also the birth certificate could mean simmons instead of summons, and if edward summons died in australia in 1883, and margaret summons is a spinster, marrying john christmas, very odd. anyway thanks
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 23 July 11 16:27 BST (UK)
24th february 1863 malvinia is born
edward summons  and margaret summons formerley rudler
occupation edward is barge builder journeyman
a bit of a mystery to me, i dont know wether they were married.


Do you have any evidence that Margaret RUDLER did actually marry Edward SUMMONS?

ie a Marriage Certificate or other family info to confirm this marriage.


Have included some info. here that has already been posted on your thread, but trying to establish is there was a marriage between Edward & Margaret  ???

Baptism parish
St Mary Battersea April 3rd 1836 born 9th March 1836
Edward SUMMONS
father Abraham SUMMONS Gardener
mother Mary abode Battersea Field

BANNS
read for their marriage
St Mary Battersea Surrey
Edward SUMMONS bachelor
Margaret RUDLER spinster
25 Nov 1860 2 Dec 1860 9 Dec 1860
both of this parish

No marriage seems to have taken place for Edward & Margaret,
although they are noted on the 1861 census as married
Edward Age 25 Barge Builder Margaret 20

Perhaps if someone has the parish records for St. Mary Battersea Surrey they could check for you just to confirm – if the marriage did take place I would say it would be sometime after the last Banns was read.

This looks to be Malvinia’s father Edward marrying Ann he’s noted as a BACHELOR

St. Dunstan & All Saints
Stepney London
marriage date 20/10/1863 After Banns
Edward SIMMONS/SUMMONS 27 Bachelor  Barge Builder
12 ?eon Street father Abraham SUMMONS Market Gardener
Anne McCARTHY 27 spinister 10 London Street father John McCARTHY Weaver Both signed Wit: John Perin? signed Sarah Myers her mark

Baptism
St. Anne’s Limehouse 29/10/1843 Born 31/12/1840
Margaret RUDLER father Richard Eating House Keeper mother Elizabeth

Malvina’s mother Margaret banns/marriage she noted as a SPINSTER


Banns

St. Dunstan & All Saints Stepney
9 Nov 26 Nov 3 Dec 1865
John CHRISTMAS 47 Widower 8 East Street
Margaret RUDLER 25 Spinister 5 Narrow Street

Marriage
b]St. Dunstan & All Saints Stepney [/b]26/12/1865
John CHRISTMAS 47 Wid Lab. 8 East Street father Edward Lab.
Margaret RUDLER 25 SPINSTER 5 Narrow Street father Richard Pastry Cook

Interesting that both Edward & Margaret married their partners at the same Church

As you said lavender123 all seems very odd, so Edward must have left Margaret & family soon after the birth of daughter Malvina Feb. 1863 as he married Oct 1863  :(

Do you have any details of the birth of daughter Henrietta SUMMONS  Limehouse?

She has the surname of CHRISTMAS on 1871/1881c born 1863 Limehouse & SUMMONS on 1891 census born 1862 Limehouse



Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Rade on Sunday 24 July 11 04:32 BST (UK)
Here are some newspaper details of Edward SUMMONS in Australia.
Thus Edward has died from wounds received in an accident.
Anne, his wife, remarries a widower Philip NOLAN in 1888. Marriage record states that Anne is native to Co. Cork.
Philip NOLAN native of Tipperary, was mayor of Echuca, President of Shire Council and a large land owner in the district.
Thus Anne has done very well.
Philip NOLAN dies 1903, survived by his beloved wife Anne.
I cannot find any further record for Anne, though she may have visited Tasmania in 1904. There is a newspaper record of an Anne NOLAN from Echuca visiting a museum in Launceston, Tasmania.
I cannot find a death record for Anne NOLAN/SUMMONS/McCARTHY in Australia. I note that she would have been about 67 yo in 1903 when her second husband died.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0eep/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0eeq/
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: lavender123 on Tuesday 26 July 11 00:20 BST (UK)
thankyou so much rade, for showing me that newspaper article, god know how he got to australia from the east end of london, . :)
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Rade on Tuesday 26 July 11 08:41 BST (UK)
There were 2 newspaper articles attached to my last post. Did you see both?
There was a jpeg which displays immediately about Edward's Will.
Then there is a report of Edward's accident which has a link you will need to open.
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: lavender123 on Tuesday 26 July 11 11:17 BST (UK)
hi rade, i only viewed one  newspaper item, i am not very good with laptops, so i never got the other newpaper article about the will and details of the accident, the thing that worries me is malvinia summons or simmons my great grandmother,born1863, was left penniless no doubt, wether edward summons was her father, or john christmas? as margaret summons nee rudler remarried, wether she was married to edward summons is debatable. and the contents of the will surely would have been spread evenly with ann mccarthy and edwards children? when malvinia married thomas callaghan my g/grandfather they had a son edward my grandfather, so maybe she had some contact with edward summons, also is there a jewish connection with the family,  as my family are irish mainly, i wa suprisd with the name abraham summons or simmons and isacc. anyway thanks for the info, edward summons sounds a right character :o
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Spetisbury on Tuesday 26 July 11 23:31 BST (UK)
Hi

Edward Summons is my 2x great uncle. The banns were read three times in 1860 for his proposed marriage to Margaret but I've never been able to find an actual marriage although they were living together using the surname Summons in 1861 census. He marries Anne McCarthy in 1863 and states he is a bachelor and Margaret Rudler marries John Christmas as a spinster using her maiden name in 1865 although subsequent censuses show the two children from her relationship with Edward Summons, Malvina and Henrietta, take their stepfather's name. Edward and Anne Summons emigrate to Australia where he dies and untimely death due to trapping his leg in in a chaff cutting machine.
Divorce was a prohibitive option for working class barge builders so who knows whether they actually married and subsequently "fibbed" on their later marriages but I think it safe to say Edward and Margaret were the parents of Malvinia/Malvina.

The name "Malvena" was subsequently used for a granddaughter of one of Edward's brothers. The Summons hail orginally from Great Bentley in Essex and several ended up in Australia - not always voluntarily!
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: trish1120 on Tuesday 26 July 11 23:40 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat Spetisbury :)
Thank you for confirming info that we have been trying to give to lavender123.

Trish :)
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Spetisbury on Tuesday 26 July 11 23:54 BST (UK)
Trish

I think that is a polite way of saying I've told you nothing new :)

On the off chance you have an interest in the Summons clan do you know anything about Edward Alfred Summons born 1906 in England and died in Albany, Perth, Western Australia in  1974. ???

I lose track of him after 1954 in Australia

Andy
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Rade on Wednesday 27 July 11 06:13 BST (UK)
On the off chance you have an interest in the Summons clan do you know anything about Edward Alfred Summons born 1906 in England and died in Albany, Perth, Western Australia in  1974. ???
I lose track of him after 1954 in Australia
Andy

Andy, Thank you for your contribution. I am interested in the SUMMONS name. Is Edward Alfred SUMMONS related to the Edward SUMMONS who was with Margaret RUDLER? Do you know Edward Alfred SUMMONS' parents/grandparents names? I am descended from Isaac SUMMONS who arrived in Melbourne in 1842. Are you descended from the SUMMONS name?
Rade
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Rade on Wednesday 27 July 11 10:32 BST (UK)
I have answered most of my own questions with help from Ancestry.
Edward Alfred SUMMONS grandparents are Everett & Fanny SUMMONS - Everett is a brother to Edward SUMMONS who was with Margaret RUDLER. So its all connected.
There are two Public Family Tress on Ancestry that show different parts of this SUMMONS family line.
Thus I have found another part of the SUMMONS family that emigrated to Australia - a good find.
Though the Ancestry trees show that Edward Alfred SUMMONS' daughter died back in England.
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Spetisbury on Wednesday 27 July 11 15:35 BST (UK)
Rade

I have a private tree on Ancestry showing the connection with Edward Alfred and Isaac. if you let me have your user name on Ancestry I'll send you an invite
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Rade on Thursday 28 July 11 00:54 BST (UK)
My user name is renegrade
I look forward to an invite
Thank you, Rade
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: DaintyTrish on Monday 19 September 11 20:37 BST (UK)
Hi, First post on here and do forgive my not having read the whole of this thread if I am way off track...

My name is Trish
Looking though my family history there may be a link

My dad - Frederick Everitt Walker (He had a sister called Malvena and a brother called Henry)

My grandparents on my dad's side were:

Frederick Thomas Walker B. 11/1/1898 in East Ham and Malvena Summons B 22/3/1900 in Gilingham

Malvena is shown as living at this address and other Summons also came up in my search:

Malvena Aged 1
113 James Street Gilingham
Also in Household are:
Ernest Summons - Head [The form looks like ernest but her wedding cert states Everitt as father of bride]
May? Mary - Wife
May ? Aged 2

I also have a census showing Everitt Summons
8 Herbert Street Poplar
Also in the household are:
Fanny - Wife
Abraham Aged 19
Richard Thomas (Boarder aged 73?)
Mary 69
Annie 33
Edward Summons 11 (Head) I assume that's another flat in the House
 Elizabeth (Wife) 20
Elizabeth 2 months

Family folkore may be romanticised but I'm told grandad Walker got Grandma Malvena pregnant with my dad. They married against family wishes and there was even rumour she was jewish and he was a catholic and the family disowned her as it were. They ran pubs in the East End of London thereafter



Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Rade on Tuesday 20 September 11 04:00 BST (UK)
Hi Trish, You are correct there is a connection. You will see that this thread has contributions from Spetisbury (Andy) he has your family line re SUMMONS down to your father. His tree has all the connections for the census info you have identified in your post. Thus welcome to the SUMMONS family tree. Maybe Andy will assist you. I highly recommend that you read all this thread so you have all the details.
Rade
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: DaintyTrish on Tuesday 20 September 11 10:16 BST (UK)
Hi Rade,

Thanks for the reply and welcome.

I came across this site by accident when doing a Google on Pub History where the Walkers (who my nan Malvena married into) ran pubs in the East End and Battersea.

My name is Patricia Mary Dainton (Nee Walker) and I have 5 siblings:

Frederick Everett Walker
Brenda Helen
Leslie Henry
Daphne Malvena
[Me and I am told the Patricia and Mary are family names]
Stephen Ian

I will have a look at the Thread and thanks for the tip that Andy may be good to hook up with re' moving backwards and forwards on the tree.

I live in Greenwich and Brenda still lives in Battersea so if we ever get out butts into gear we are well placed to look at Parish records given our proximity to the East End where the Summons were based in for so long (I regularly pass LimeHouse; Shadwell etc and Malvena is at east London Cementary with Arthur and Fred plus some others in the family plot.
 
Best wishes,

Trish
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Spetisbury on Monday 26 September 11 16:23 BST (UK)
Thanks Rade

I've sent Trish an invite to the tree. :)
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: DaintyTrish on Wednesday 28 September 11 09:17 BST (UK)
Thanks guys

It all looks good and I need to get my butt into gear and dig out loads of references and hopefully add to the tree/data onAndy's and this site.

 :)
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: MaggiesGD on Friday 30 September 11 13:05 BST (UK)
I've really enjoyed reading this piece of detective work!  One thing no one is looked into is Henrietta Summons / Simmons birth.  Per the census she is listed as having been born in Limehouse like Malvina but there is no birth record on BMD.  The closest I can find in terms of date / name is:

Births Mar 1862   (>99%)
~~~~~~~~
 
SIMMONS  Henrietta     Hendon  3a 91


I am curious about her as she is (presumably)  the eldest child of the Margaret Rudler / Edward Summons relationship and the only one named as a step child of Christmas on the census.  Has anyone else looked for her?
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Spetisbury on Friday 30 September 11 15:25 BST (UK)
Hi

Henrietta is in my tree and I've tracked her in the census under he step name of Christmas and her married name of Murray but like you I have been unable to find a definitive birth. her sister Malvenia is recorded in Stepney in 1863.
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Rade on Sunday 02 October 11 06:38 BST (UK)
Hi - The Henrietta SIMMONS birth record posted by MaggiesGD looks good to me. The SUMMONS name is regulary mispelt in this way. It is a year earlier than her sister's so that's OK. In my search for this birth record I noted that Henrietta is an uncommon name for the period. Hendron is in Middlesex so close enough again.
Henrietta is a widow with three daughters in the 1901 UK census. She is living in Wapping - also in the house is her mother and three of Henrietta's step sisters. Next door is Henrietta's mother-in-law I presume - Mary MURRAY living 'On own means'. So Henrietta has lots of family support.

For Spetisbury - I note that you have another husband for Henrietta - Charles FARQUHARSON - I have looked at your sources including the maguire public tree on Ancestry and I cannot find a marriage - do you have any further evidence for this marriage?
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Spetisbury on Monday 03 October 11 10:21 BST (UK)
Hi

I'm quite happy to believe there is no marriage. He is recorded as a "boarder" in the 1911 census after she is widowed. He may have been exactly that but I have taken him as a "partner" from a public tree elsewhere on Ancestry.
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: lavender123 on Saturday 19 April 14 20:15 BST (UK)
Hi there everybody, a while back I was searching for my g/grandmother malvena Callaghan nee summons/Simmons I have looking through the posts and was quite excited  when I read henrietta  summons/ and malvena were living in wapping, that is more peoberley when malvena met my g/grandfather Thomas Callaghan , if we have the right people Thomas and Malvina  Callaghan are on the 1911 census in Dublin.  I have been trying to find where Malvina grandparents were . Thanks
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Rade on Tuesday 22 April 14 04:29 BST (UK)
Thanks for the 1911 Dublin census lead - I have found a scan on the National Archives website - it has same children's names as 1901 UK census so must be them living at 8 Seaview Avenue.
Malvina SUMMONS' mother Margaret nee RUDLER is recorded in the 1841 UK Census as RADLER - aged 5 months with sister Ann 5 years and parents Richard 30 & Elizabeth 30, Richard is a Pastry Cook. They were living in St Anne Limehouse, Middlesex, London.
Margaret RUDLER's parents were married 2 Feb 1835 - vis:
Marriage Register - Richard Rudler & Elizabeth Healey
Author: Parish of St Mary Le Strand, Westminster, London, England
Margaret was christened when she was almost 3 years old on 29th Oct 1843 - her parents were shown as Richard & Elizabeth, he was an Eating House Keeper.
The 1851 UK Census has Richard & Elizabeth RUDLER with chd Ann 15 and Margaret 11 also in St Anne Limehouse - Richard is still a Pastry Cook.
Ancestry has a very comprehensive public family tree called 'Maguire and Jones family tree'. The owner is vjmaguire. This tree shows the CALLAGHAN family moving to Dublin in 1910.
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Rade on Wednesday 23 April 14 04:29 BST (UK)
I note that the Ancestry 'Arnold family file' has a photo of Thomas CALLAGHAN with what appears to be three workers outside his work office in Dublin and a second photo of Malvina CALLAGHAN nee SUMMONS scrubbing the front path at her home 8 Seaview Avenue, North Dock, Dublin. I checked current google street view and confirmed the front fence shown in Malvina's photo is the same now, down to the missing prong on the fence. See attachments
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: treebranches on Tuesday 06 May 14 20:11 BST (UK)
wow this thread is so interesting!!!   
That pic is my great grandmother, Malvina.  My grandmother Rose grew up in that house and my mother was there as a child for a short time.   I have a pic of my great grandfather, thomas at my grandmother's wedding, looking very much the same in the pic there!  Must show these pics to my mother.   Have just made contact today with lavender123 via this website.    There are a few threads here about the Callaghans so just getting to read them all.     Must have a look at the ancestry website.   My mother looks after my the family grave in Glasnevin, dublin.   My great grandparents, Thomas and Malvina are buried there along with her own parents and more recent relatives.   The  grave, if its any consolation, it is well looked after and attended too.
Title: Re: margaret rudler
Post by: Rade on Sunday 19 July 20 12:11 BST (UK)
I note that the Ancestry 'Arnold Family File' shown in my previous post appears to have been superseded by 'newham/carroll family file'.

I also note that my trusty dog pictured on my posts for 11 years has said goodbye to us on the 28Jun20. A sad passing. :(