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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: big g on Monday 01 August 11 12:01 BST (UK)
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Rev. John Jones born Talysarn 1796 died 1857, had brother David also a preacher c1805 Talysarn died 1868.
Just wondering if there are any descendants of John and David still living in the Nantlle valley area?
Some years ago I obtained copies of documents deposited at Caernarvon by Rev. Stanley Hadyn Williams, and one document, difficulty to read, was "Pedigree of the late Rev.John Jones, Talysarn"
Not sure if Stanley had this item because he or his wife, Ellen Elsie Owen , or even his mother, Jane Griffiths, were related to John's family, or just because of his interest in Welsh Calvanistic Methodist preachers.
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big g, I have never heard of Rev, Stanley Hadyn Williams work on JJ but have other h/w and printed pedigrees of this "Jones" family who in the next generation called themselves "Lloyd Jones" it being the patronymic "Lloyd" which is the old family surname from long ago.
My 3x Gt Nain, Jane Williams was a first cousin of JJ,their mothers were sisters.
My copy of JJ,s biography of 1886 tells much of the family,but many "Lloyd Jones" headed to the USA at Cambria Wisconsin and from there emanated a huge pedigree written in the "Wheel"which is held by many family members.
A man named" David Lloyd Jones" was the last person recorded as possessing the Family Bible of Angharad James 1680-1749, Poetess, which records the family pedigree,oh if only I could make contact with the present keeper!! her prayerbook inscriptions are available in NLW
Allen..
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Allen,
I have sent by email copy of the document I purchased from Caernarvon Archives - papers deposited by Parch Stanley Williams and Dr. Gwilym Arthur Jones, XD94, item 15.
Rev. Stanley Hadyn Williams was a cousin of my late father, hence my interest in his papers.
It would appear that Rev. John Jones had daughter Margaret who married John Hughes Williams, they had son, John A.A. Williams.
Glenys
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Hello, I am brand new to this site. We recently learned that my husband is a descendant of William Prichard and Angharad James twice, through John Jones and Elinor ach Rhisiart, and through John William Llywd and Catherine vch William.
I have received a copy of the big family wheel that lists the children and grandchildren of John Jones and Elinor ach Rhisiart (although some of it is missing because the paper wasn't large enough). Do you know who put this family wheel together and when? I am hoping that it is reliable, because it shows a definite link to the family that we were missing, plus it has so much information on it, but I have learned to trust nothing in family history research without documentation of where sources came from.
I'd appreciate any advice or information you can give about this family wheel.
Thanks!
Michelle
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Michelle,I have sent you a PM,
To go along with the "Wheel" is a long list[my copy is a very old handwritten sheet which goes back rather a long way],it states where much of the info was obtained from ie Heraldic Visitations etc, my copy came to me 20 years ago when I visited "Tanycastell"the old home of the Jones family, and, somewhere I have seen the names "Ruth and Burt De Groot"I have a Newspaper report showing the original Wheel and its then keeper, in the USA,also stating, that it would be handed down within the family on her demise.
When my Gt Grandfather came to Wiltshire in 1868 he called himself Elias Lloyd Williams bn 1847 Glan Conwy, it turns out the "Lloyd," is our Patronymic, and, is very long standing.this took me many years to work out.
The next stage before the Wheel runs from "Hedd Molwynog"if you are interested!!
Allen.
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Just found the papers!!Dated March 31st 1977,Randolph, Wisconsin USA.
"In the memoir of David Lloyd Jones,son of John Jones Talsarn,is a chart giving the lineage of John Jones back to Hedd Molwynog,founder of the 9th Noble Tribe of Gwynedd in the year 1079"
Question ;;;--- has anyone ever seen a copy?????????
"The Wheel Blueprint was drawn up by Edward L Williams,Cambria Wis,approximately 90 Years ago,the 33inch oak frame was fashioned by William Edwards also of Cambria."
It says:- "the hub begins the recorded history of the David E [Buckhill]Williams family and in 1977 graced the home of Nellie Williams who in that year, was aged 86" .
Margaret Edwards 1788-1846 was the Gt Grandmother of Mrs Williams late husband David E Williams.
Mrs Williams and her husband,received the wheel when Mr Williams father Thomas E Williams died in 1942.
Another note on 2nd page says"There is an identical wheel of this family in Wales,though it is not known how or when it got there.Mrs Williams knows that it is in the posession of relatives,though they are relatives she,s never met and wouldn,t know"
Thomas David Williams will receive the wheel when the time comes to pass it on,he is the Nellie,s Grandson he is the son of Thomas and Phyllis Williams Cambria,it was his fathers name, Thomas M, that was the last to be entered on the wheel,that was in 1927,.
Its all on two sheets 1xA4 and 1x A3 and the first one A3 has Mrs Williams on it in front of the wheel,the other a write up on many such as Edward L [Tredolphyn]Williams[1827-1903] a leading mathematician in his day,,his son Owen J Williams was the foremost Welsh Poet in America in English Verse while he lived,he wrote the poem in the centre of the wheel.
In memory dreams-I plead in vain
Oh wheel of time,turn back again
And take me home,once more to be
A child upon my mothers knee.
But headless time rolls ever on,
The happy past forever gone,
Beyond the sea my childhood,s home
My Mothers soul beyond the tomb.
Owen J Williams 1897.
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Michelle,
I've gone through most of the wheel for the American side and I would estimate it is about 99% accurate. I seem to remember a few instances where a death or birth date was a year off, but all in all it is really impressive. I still wonder how he gathered all the data and how he drew that wheel without White-Out!
Lori
4x g-granddaughter of Mary Jones
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I stumbled across this thread and it is fascinating, but I'm afraid I have more questions than answers. My great, great, grand mother Eliza Roberts (b. 1843, Bangor, Wales) was supposedly a niece or grand niece of the Reverend John Jones of Talysarn, who was born of course in Tan y Castel. In fact my grandmother, Violet Stonebridge (nee Dixon), had a framed "Tan y Castell Lineage" which purported to show the family back to medieval times, but of course it has been lost. All I have been able to find out was that Eliza's father's name was William Roberts (from her marriage certificate).
Family legend says there is also a link to the Australian writer Dora Birtles (nee Toll, b. 1907) through her grandfather, William Pritchard Roberts, who emigrated from Bangor in 1861. Presumably he was related to Eliza though I am not sure how.
None of this actually helps I realise,but if anyone has any information I would be grateful!
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dbuss, the lineage you mention which was lost !! if it was not of "The Wheel" then I have a copy of a handwritten lineage,no idea who penned it or in which country..[hard to decipher in places]which the lady Mrs Barrow, then resident in the old house at Tan Y Castell gave me some 20 years ago along with a sheet containing "The Wheel",a photocopied photocopy but if you contact me I will post a copy[in a letter] gratis.
Allen.
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Allen, this is very kind of you! Unfortunately I live in Brazil so I hesitate to ask you to send anything. Is there some info available on the net?
Thanks again!
Dave
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I am a descendant of John Jones Tanycastell through his son Richard Jones, then John R Jones, then Hugh Elias Jones, then Hannah Elthel Jones (Cribbs) who was my grandmother. I have copy of the family wheel dating from John Jones Tanycastell that my grandfather traced in 1962 along with 10 pages of written information realating to the wheel which was written by RE Jones of Wabasha MN in 1937. He had the lineage chart back to Hodd Molwynog but I don't know how to find his descendents to get a copy. I will be in Wales in the Dolwyddelen area the first week in September and would be interested in meeting any relatives who may still live in the area.
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John Jones Talysarn was my great great grandfather - my great grandfather was his oldest son John Lloyd Jones. A group from the USA descended from his sister Mary have just visited Tanycastell and I met with them there. I have copies of the family wheel and of other family trees. So I was fascinated to read this forum and see others connected. A PhD student at Cardiff University has been studying both John Jones Talysarn and his wife Fanny
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John Jones, Talysarn was my great-great-great-great-great uncle. His sister, Mary, was my great-great-great-great grandmother. She and 5 of JJ's siblings left Dolwyddelan in 1845 and came to Wisconsin. Two weeks ago, ten of my family members (including me) spent the week in Dolwyddelan at Tan-y-castell, as posted by Sarah. I also have a digital copy of the wheel I scanned in. It's a decent copy, but the best one I've seen is in Dolwyddelan. Soozer posted that she has notes from R.E. Jones. He was my great-great uncle, who is still loved and remembered by my surviving great-aunt. I've got lots of his stuff, too. Feel free to get in touch with me. I will willingly share any information that I have with any of the other posters here. Most of my paperwork is after they came to Cambria, Wisconsin.
Tony
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Does anyone know anything about the ancestors of Frances (Fanny) Edwards, wife of John Jones Talysarn? I know her father was Thomas Edwards an overseer at Cloddfa'r Lon and that he lived at Taldrwst Llanllyfni but not much else, apart from that Fanny was born in Ffestiniog Parish according to the censuses. it would also seem that Fanny had a brother Thomas living in America. The reason I am asking is that I am doing some work on the ancestors of Rachel Davies nee Paynter (1845-1915) who was known as Rahel o Fon. She was an eminent preacher on both sides of the Atlantic in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. An obituary for Rahel o Fon states that she was a member of a family that contained John Jones Talysarn although I cannot see a connection. She was also said to be an aunt of John Vaughan Edwards (1876-1936) a solicitor and chairman of Swansea Munitions Court although I cannot see that either. I sense there must be a connection but a bit more remote than claimed on the obituary. John Vaughan Edwards's grandfather Richard Edwards (1802-1838) was from Llanllyfni when he married Jane Williams at Llanarmon Church, Caernarvonshire in 1824. My suspicion is that Richard Williams was a brother of Fanny Edwards wife of John Jones Talysarn.
So in a round about way that's why I am asking about the ancestors/siblings of Fanny Edwards.
regards
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I have made an attempt at Thomas Edwards' family but have not found brothers for Frances as you described.I could,of course,be entirely wrong,but for what it's worth this is what I came up with:-
Thomas Edwards(1773-1841).I believe he was married twice,first to Anne Williams(1780-1816).
I have not found their respective baptisms or marriage,but their children are Frances(Ffestiniog,1805),Elizabeth(Carnarvon,1809),Samuel(Llanllyfni,1813-1814).
With the records being non-conformist,these dates are close to the start of some records and there could be scope for others not recorded(or missed by me?).some databases have interesting variants on names(Family Search has Phanny Edwards,Thomas Edwarts,Jane Griphith )- see IGI batch number C 103491 at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountyCaernarvon.htm#L
I believe his second marriage was to Jane Griffith(1786-1868) in 1817 in Llanfihangel y Pennant.Marriage details at NLW marriage bonds and allegations.Their children are(with Talrwst(sic) references for first and last)-Mary(1819),Edward(1821),Jane(1823),Catherine(1825) and Griffith Thomas(1829-is this the "brother" Thomas?).
Some of the family can be seen in the 1841 census at Bryn Nenan(?),LLandwrog ref.HO 107 1397 2/39 7.
I also think that Catherine(1825,above),may be with Frances at the Talysarn shop(HO 107 1397 2/93 2).
The burial entry for Thomas Edwards is at Rhos Nenan(?),with a side note - "late of Talrwst"
This property appears to be in the possession of an Owen Griffith,son of William Griffith,weaver(1832 will at NLW).His second wife is at Bryn En(g)an until her death in 1868.
Regards
Roger
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Roger
Thank you very much for finding the parents and siblings of Fanny Edwards, wife of John Jones Talysarn. I suppose that Richard Edwards born ca 1802 could still be a brother of Fanny's but I have found an obituary for Dr Richard John Lloyd Edwards 1870-1936 who was a brother of John Vaughan Edwards 1876-1936. This was in the British Medical Journal and it states that Dr Richard John Lloyd Edwards was a direct descendant of Rev. John Jones of Talysarn. So perhaps I should be concentrating on John Jones himself rather than his wife Fanny.
There is a family tree for John Jones Talysarn in T Ceiri Griffith's book "Achau rhai o deuluoedd hen siroedd Caernarfon, Meirionnydd a Threfaldwyn" but the Edwards family is not in it. I do know someone who has a copy of the wheel that is mentioned in other posts on John Jones Talysarn. If there is a direct connection to John Jones then I need to find the parents of Elizabeth born Clynnog ca 1847 died Cardiff 1938. She was the wife of John Edwards born Llanarmon 1836 died Talysarn 1886 both being parents of Dr Richard John Lloyd Edwards and John Vaughan Edwards. How Rachel Davies nee Paynter is an aunt of these two is a bigger mystery, she is not a sister of Elizabeth mother of the two boys. I'm convinced there is a mistake somewhere.
Thank you once again.
regards
David
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There looks to be a relationship between John Edwards,husband of Elizabeth,and the family of John Jones,Talysarn.As this pre-dates the marriage perhaps this is worth looking at first.I think he is in the 1861 census described as a cousin of Thomas Jones,(son of John and Frances) at Nantlle House,Clodfaircoed,Llanllyfni ref RG09 4336 79 12.
Regards
Roger
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That's a great find; people were forever mixing up Llanarmon and Llangybi in the censuses and the age is a bit out too (3 years) but it's definitely John Edwards of Brynrhydd, Llanarmon. If you take 'cousin' John Edwards as the correct relationship to the head of house then his father Richard Edwards or his mother Jane Williams is a sibling of either John Jones Talysarn or Fanny Edwards. That is why I went for Richard Edwards being a brother of Fanny. I'm pretty certain that that Jane Williams born Llanarmon in 1803 is not a sister of John Jones Talysarn.
So it might be worth a visit to the Archives at Dolgellau and Caernarfon to see if I can find a baptism for Richard Edwards which is not available on the internet. I think I'll try and find the marriage of Thomas Edwards and Anne Williams too. I think that perhaps Anne Williams may be the key to the relationship to Rachel Paynter - Rachel's maternal grandparents were Evan Williams and his wife Mary who were at Efail Uchaf in Penmorfa in 1841 but vanish after that.
Thank you and a Merry Christmas to you.
regards
David
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I noticed that in the bond at NLW for Richard Edwards (1838) that one of the executors(?) is Evan Williams of Llanfihangel y Pennant.I wonder if this is Rachel's grandfather?
Regards
Roger
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Could well be. The parishes of Dolbenmaen, Penmorfa and Llanfihangel y Pennant are interchangeable in terms of which parish properties belong to. If you pick a property in 1841 and go through to 1911 you may find it in all three parishes over time. It's worse than Llangybi and Llanarmon!
thanks again- your latest find is a great help.
regards
David
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Evan Williams was born ca 1790 (this going off the 1841 census so + or - 5 years) so he was probably a brother of Jane Williams of Brynrhydd. This could well be the salient marriage bond
Williams, Evan, bach., farmer, Llanarmon, Caernarfonshire to Jones, Mary, sp., Llanfihangel y Pennant, Caernarfonshire : 1813 Dec. 23.
from the NLW website http://cat.llgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/gw/chameleon
regards
David
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And this is probably the baptism of Jane Williams - mother of Rachel Paynter at Llanfihangel y Pennant 15/02/1814 to Evan and Mary Williams on https://familysearch.org/search/records#count=25&query=%2Bgivenname%3Ajane~%20%2Bbatch_number%3AC090521&offset=25
the Hugh Wallis IGI website.
regards
David
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Seems a reasonable working hypothesis.I do wonder whether"cousin" at this time was necessarily the same as the current convention,and of course it doesn't say what degree of cousin.In the 1851 census John Edwards is down as son-in-law,wheras currently he would be a step-son.
I also wondered what happened to Evan and Mary-perhaps they emigrated to the USA like many.
Regards
Roger
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I came to the same conclusion re Mary Jones and I think she is the daughter of Griffith Jones and Grace of Cae Eithin Tew,1823 will at NLW.
Regards
Roger
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Jane Williams mother of John Edwards did remarry following the death of her husband. She married Robert Griffith of Penllech parish in December 1838 following the death of Richard Edwards. They're at Brynrhydd in 1841 before moving to Llys Patrick, Abererch by 1851 and then on to the High Street in Bangor. So John Edwards was actually a step son in 1851, but you're right son in law was used quite a lot back then.
regards
David
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I think I sent a reply that got held up but I've sent it now (regarding son in law and step son). One of Rachel Paynter's sisters was born in Cae Eithin Tew in 1839 and she was called Grace too. I think that this is the link. It would be good to find a baptism for Richard Edwards in ca 1802 just to seal it.
regards and thanks ever so much.
david
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Can't find anything further at the moment.Will try again tomorrow.
Regards
Roger
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Another possible link:-
The 1841 census for Cae Eithin Tew HO 107 1391 5/31 1,has,apart from Grace Jones aged 95,John and Grace Thomas(b.1816) and family.
There is an 1837 marriage at NLW for John Thomas of Trawsfynydd to Grace Williams of Llanfihangel y Pennant.FamilySearch has a baptism for Grace Williams at L-y-P in 1816 to Evan and Mary Williams.
Regards
Roger
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Yes that's right. There is also a Griffith Williams aged 20 at Efail Uchaf Penmorfa with Evan and Mary Williams in 1841; there is a baptism at Llanfihangel y Pennant for Griffith to Evan and Mary Williams in 1818. There is also a baptism for William to Evan and Mary Williams in 1834 in Llanfihangel y Pennant - which is quite a bit after the others but still possible.
regards
David
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Still haven't found a satisfactory baptism for Richard Edwards.If he was baptised Llanarmon it may not be available online-this IGI summary shows the possible limitations(not on FindMyPast either).
http://www.archersoftware.co.uk/igi/fs-cae.htm#L
Regards
Roger
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I don't think Richard Edwards was baptised at Llanarmon; there is a transcribed copy of the marriage register on
http://www.yffor.com/parish/llanarmon/llanarmonpriodi1813.html
which shows that he was living at Llanllyfni at the time of his marriage to Jane Williams at Llanarmon in 1824. One of the witnesses was Thomas Edwards who could well be Thomas Edwards of Taldrwst, Llanllyfni. The Llanbeblig Parish Registers are available on
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/parish-records/baptisms?tab=1
and he was not baptised at Llanbeblig Church. There does not seem to be a record of a baptism for him in Caernarfonshire or Meirionethshire on either
http://www.thegenealogist.co.uk/
or
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=2972
which makes me worry that if Richard was baptised at a non-conformist chapel the record may not have survived. However he may have been baptised in Ffestiniog Parish Church and they are available in Gwynedd Archives in Dolgellau
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/DATRhagorolNET/RhestrEitem.aspx?iaith=en&rhif_archif=13&rhif_rhiant=52171&maint_testun=100&cyferbyniad=
So I think I'll take a trip to Dolgellau in the New Year to have a look for Richard.
regards
David
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This has promise:-
I looked at the Llanarmon marriage record and saw Elizabeth Williams as a witness.I looked to see if I could find a sister,rather than a mother,and found a marriage for an Elizabeth Williams to a William Jones in Llanarmon in 1829.I then found this couple on the 1851 census(HO 107 2513 201 8)
Elizabeth's mother Laura(Lowry) is there and this helped finding the earlier family with William Williams at Rhos Gill Fawr Llanarmon.(HO 107 1391 4/18 6)..There is considerable detail in his will of 1847.Amongst many others he nominates his son Evan Williams of Llys Padrig,Abererch,(but there is an Owen Williams in the 1841 census at that address,though no obvious baptism for him-,but see below)He also nominates two grandsons John and Robert Edwards,but they may be at a different address than expected.There isn't an obvious baptism for a Jane to this couple,but perhaps Lowry is a second wife(?).I can see a baptism to a William and Jane in 1803-I will pursue that line tomorrow.
Regards
Roger
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I feel a bit embarrassed. William Williams of Rhosgill Fawr is my great, great, great, great, great uncle, brother of my great*4 grandmother of Jonet Williams; they are both children of William and Margaret Griffith of Punt y Gwair Llanengan. John Williams of Ty Hir a son of William Williams of Rhosgill compiled the inventory for the estate Richard Edwards of Brynrhydd too. I even looked at the will of William Williams a couple of days ago and missed Evan Williams at Llys Patrick!
If this all hangs correctly Evan Williams then married Mary Jones of Cae'r Eithin Tew, Llanfihangel-y-p and baptised 4 children at Llanfihangel-y-p and was at Efail Uchaf Penmorfa by 1841, then moved to Llys Patrick by the time William Williams of Rhosgill wrote his will and moved again which allowed his sister Jane and second husband Robert Griffith to move to Llys Patrick from Brynrhydd?
Going back to William Williams of Rhosgill, Lowry was his first and only wife. She died at Cwm Llanaelhaearn on 12/04/1853 and is buried in Llanarmon. Cwm Llanaelhaearn was the home of daughter Elizabeth and her husband William Jones who married in 1829 at Llanarmon.
I know that William Williams and Lowry spent some time in Llannor parish before moving to Llanarmon. They baptised Anne at Llanengan in 1758 and their abode was Punt y Gwair in the register. John Williams (of Ty Hir Llanarmon) was baptised in Llannor in 1793 and I've found a baptism for Evan at Llannor in 1788 with Hendre Uchaf as an abode for his parents William and Lowry Williams. William Williams who was at Tyddyn Madryn Coch Llanystumdwy was baptised in Llannor in 1782. There is a match for Evan Williams born 1788 in Llannor in as a publican at Fourcrosses with a young wife Mary aged 39 from Llanddeiniolen and a granddaughter Mary Williams aged 15 from Liverpool. I may have found a burial for Mary first wife of Evan Williams, on y ffor.com there is a burial for a Mary Williams of Rhoshill aged 53 on 27/11/1845 and Evan Williams of Pontrhychdwr (late Rhosgyll) aged 92 on 28/02/1879. It's a good fit age-wise but whether I've got the right ones I'm not sure.
This leaves Elizabeth born ca 1800, Ellen born ca 1800 (going off the 1841 census so + or - 5 years) and Jane born ca 1803 which need to be found. My gut feeling is they were born in Llanarmon.
The Penrhyndeudraeth address for grandson Robert and John Edwards in the will of William Williams Rhosgill is surprising but still possible. It looks like William Williams Rhosgill skipped over Jane and on to his grandsons Robert and John Edwards; he may not have been too happy that she married Robert Griffith.
If this does hang together then Rachel Paynter - 'Rahel o Fon' is my 1st cousin 7 times removed. That wasn't the reason why I was researching her but that's an amazing find if correct.
thank you once again and regards
David
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Thanks for the comprehensive background.it's a lot to take in.I will have a further look this afternoon/evening.I'm still a litttle uncertain over some aspects.It must be me,but I'm having some difficulty with returning to FamilySearch records I thought I'd found previousy!
Regards
Roger
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Sorry for bombarding you, but I got a bit carried away when I realized the link to William Williams of Rhosgill. By the way Anne his daughter born Llanengan in 1778 was buried in Llanarmon in 1819; there is a surviving gravestone for her too.
regards
David
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I haven't found anything significant(or that you probably don't know already) based on your last post.Ellen Williams has a will of 1856 when she is residing at Cwm,Llanaelhaearn in which she nominates a sister Margaret.I can't find an equivalent burial record that would pin down her birth more accurately.It is possible she is with this sister at Cae Du Llangybi in 1851(HO 107 2513 169 13)wher she is given as born 1798,Llanarmon.Her sister Margaret is given as born 1780 Llanor(sic) and there is a baptismal record for a Margaret 1779 to William and Lowry,abode looks like Goetre(f)?
Regards
Roger
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You have certainly found Ellen who was with her parents in Rhosgill in 1841. The fact that she had a sister Margaret in Llangybi is also interesting because the Mary Williams who was buried in Llanarmon in 1845 is NOT the wife of Evan Williams. In fact she's yet another daughter of William and Lowry Williams of Goetre and it was Mary's sister Margaret of Capel Helyg who registered her death. So the children for William and Lowry Williams found to date are:
Anne born 1778 Llanengan died 1819 Llanarmon (buried Llanarmon) - spinster
Margaret born 1779 Llannor died 1861 Llangybi (buried Llangybi) - widowed
William born 1782 Llannor died 1874 Tyddyn Madyn Coch (buried Llanystumdwy)
Evan born 1788 Llannor died 1879 Pontrhychdwr (buried Llanarmon) - not certain of this one a crosscheck with northwalesbmd and ancestry would suggest that the death occurred in the Llandwrog register sub-district. This could be Clynnog, Llanllyfni or Llandwrog parish. Don't know what happened to his wife Mary Jones of Cae'r Eithin Tew.
Mary born ca 1790 (can't find baptism) died 1845 Rhosgill (buried Llanarmon) - spinster
John born 1793 Llannor died 1848 Ty Hir (buried Llanarmon) - married
Ellen born 1798 Llanarmon died 1856 Cwm Llanaelhaearn - spinster
Elizabeth born 1800 Llanarmon died 1868 Cwm Llanaelhaearn (buried Llanaelhaearn) - married
Jane born 1803 Llanarmon died between 1851 and 1861 in Bangor probably. Second husband Robert Griffiths widowed in Bangor High Street in 1861. Looks like he died in 1868.
The old registers are difficult to make out, I'm going to have another look now that you've identified Goetre.
regards
David
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It looks like I've misread the baptism of John Williams at Llannor in 1793, the father is Michael not William. With not being able to find the baptism of Mary in ca 1790 it may be that William and Lowry Williams moved from Llannor to Llanarmon following the birth of Evan in 1788.
regards
David
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I will see if anything can be gleaned from the residents of the property Bryn y Pin which seemed "reserved"(?) for Evan Williams(dependent upon the status of Mary) or Robert/John Edwards, in the will of William Williams.
I'll also look for an alternate baptism for John Williams.
Regards
Roger
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Evan is a bit tricky after 1841.
There is a marriage bond dated 1799 for his sister Margaret Williams born 1779 on the NLW website. She married Griffith Humphrey(s). There is a will for Griffith Humphreys of Capel Helig Llangybi in 1841 on the NLW website but the images are not available today which is a pity. Margaret is at Capel Helyg in 1841 as Margret Humphrey with two daughters Lowry and Elizabeth; she's then started to use her maiden surname as widows often did back then. She's buried at Capel Helyg cemetery not Llangybi Churchyard as I stated previously.
regards
David
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I was just about to look for a marriage for Margaret.Is there a specific reason why you have chosen Griffith Humphrey(I don't have any reason to doubt it-just curious)?I have obviously had the same problem with wills.
Regards
Roger
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The marriage bond looked promising - 1799 at for a marriage to be held at Llanarmon when Margaret would have been 20. Then finding Margret Humphrey at Capel Helyg in 1841 with a daughter Lowry. I've subsequently found that Griffith Humphreys was buried at Llanarmon on 9/9/1840 aged 69 so that fits too. There is also a Griffith Humphreys of Capel Helyg buried at Llanarmon aged 19 in 1831 - he's probably a son. I'll try and find his baptism. I've found the baptisms of Lowry at Llanarmon and Elizabeth at Rhoslan Independent Chapel.
I'll probably order the marriage bond in the next couple of weeks.
regards
David
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In the will of William Williams Rhosgill the address of Hafod Penrhyn daudraeth (sic) for Robert and John Edwards grandsons of William Williams does make sense. According to the 1851 census when they were at Llys Patric Catherine daughter of Jane Williams by her second husband Robert Griffiths was born in Llanfihangel y Traethau in 1847 the year that the will was written. That's the correct parish for Penrhyndeudraeth.
regards
David
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There is an 1879 probate for Evan Williams giving him as a miner,late of Lon Bach,Criccieth with the executor being Griffith Owen (husband of Ann Owen) of Unicorn Terrace,Four Crosses,Festiniog.
Regards
Roger
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Thanks for that.
There are four Evan Williams that died in 1879 in Pwllheli Register District according to Ancestry. All in April to June quarter. They are
Evan Williams born 1803
Evan Williams born 1811
Evan Williams born 1828
Evan Williams born 1879
Criccieth was a subdistrict of Pwllheli so I would expect the Evan Williams who died at Lon Bach on 19/06/1879 to be one of the first three. I'm going to try and find who registered the death of Evan Williams aged 92 who died in the Llandwrog subdistrict (that will be in Caernarfon district) in the January to March quarter 1879. It's the only one in the county that fits the Evan Williams buried in Llanarmon on 28/02/1879. The address of the deceased is given as Pontrhychddwr (late Rhosgyll) in the burial register, I've never heard of Pontrhychddwr; but I know the Lleyn area better than Arfon. There is no will for an Evan Williams of that address so if he's the correct one he's fallen on hard times.
regards
David
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A long shot,but there is a Pant(y)rhwch in Llanengan district.
1871 ref. RG10 5706 46 7.
Same family in 1881.
Regards
Roger
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Pant yr Hwch, Llanengan is in the Pwllheli Register District so again it doesn't fit the age at death profile for Evan Williams on Ancestry, North Wales BMD and the burial record for Llanarmon Church. Funnily enough Laura Evans nee Thomas the lady of the house is a first cousin once removed of Evan Williams on his father's side. Laura's mother Margaret Griffith of Bodwi Llangian was Evan's first cousin.
regards
David
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Pont y Chrychddwr is in Llanllyfni - postcode LL54 6DH
1841 census HO107 1397 4/58 7
There are 4 families under this address at this time.
Haven't found later censuses yet.
Regards
Roger
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1871 RG10 5712 78 15 (6 families)
1881 RG11 5563 50 19 (3 families)
Regards
Roger
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Great find; that does fit. Llanllyfni was in Llandwrog registration subdistrict.
regards
David
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Evan Williams did have daughter Grace (born 1816) who lived in Llanllyfni. She married twice, first to John Thomas of Trawsfynydd and then to Lewis Jerman of Aberffraw. Grace is in Llanllyfni in 1871, 1881 and 1891 as Grace Jerman. She's in Pont y Crychddwr in 1881 so it looks like Evan died at her house.
thanks for all your help
regards
David
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I came across this while looking for the identity of Ann(e) Williams,first wife of Thomas Edwards(I assume this is still required?I was trying to see,if I had got her burial and,therefore,birth,dates wrong,that she might be sister or daughter of William Williams of Rhosgill)
According to the following I think there was a father and son of the same name.
Search for "Tyhir" "Rhosgill" "Rhosgyll"
https://archive.org/details/ycymmrodor44cymmuoft
Regards
Roger
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The identity of Anne Williams first wife of Thomas Edwards would be good to get. She is not the sister or daughter of William Williams of Rhosgill. Anne the sister married 1750-1822 married Robert Williams of Creigir Goch Llanengan whereas Anne the daughter 1778-1819 died a spinster at Rhosgill.
That's a fascinating article that you sent me from Y Cymmrodor, so many familiar names and I'm related to some of the people but I doubt whether I'd get invited to drink from those cups!
The William Williams recorded as living at Ty Hir in 1794 on page 27 is not our man. On page 47 it says that the son who inherited Plas yn Rhiw was the son of William Williams of Ty Hir and Rhosgyll on page 23. There is no mention of Rhosgyll on page 23 only Ty Hir. However the William Williams living at Rhosgyll in 1794 is our man. Very confusing a William Williams at Rhosgyll in 1894 and another one at Ty Hir in the same year and to confuse things even more John Williams a son of our William Williams of Rhosgyll was farming Ty Hir by the 1830s!
There is a bit about the two 'other' William Williams in this article about Plas yn Rhiw
http://www.rhiw.com/hanes_pages/plas_yn_rhiw.htm
Thanks again for sending this article, there is a lot of information in there which is useful to me.
regards
David
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Another long shot:-
In the baptism records for Elizabeth and Samuel,children of Thomas Edwards and Anne Williams,her parish is given as Llanbeblig.Assuming she was not just resident there,but born there and assuming I have the right burial to give her dates as 1780-1816,there are three possible baptisms(given a +/- 2year tolerance)
One,interestingly is Dec 1779,daughter of Richard Williams(labourer) and Frances.
There is a marriage in Nov 1779 between Richard Williams and Frances Edwards which could fit.
There is a burial record for Frances Williams,South Penrallt,Llanbeblig which would give her as 1760-1839,and a baptism record for Frances Edwards,1759 to Thomas and Moclan(??)
Richard Williams is more difficult.There is a burial record for a Richard 1752-1814,but no abode details and I can't see a will for either of them.
It could all be just coincidence of course,I can't see any obvious way of proving it.
Regards
Roger
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It could well be her. I can't find a marriage bond for Thomas Edwards and Anne Williams, that may have helped.
By the way I can confirm that Elizabeth Griffith was born at Hafod y Wern Llanfihangel y Traethau in 1847 to Robert and Jane Griffith nee Williams. This backs up the will of William Williams of Rhosgill in 1847 which states that his grandsons Robert and John Edwards (sons of Jane by her first marriage to Richard Edwards) were living at Hafod Penrhyndeudraeth at the time.
What is interesting here is that the daughter is Catherine at Llys Patric in 1851 and Elizabeth in Bangor High Street in 1861. Robert Griffith and all three daughters, Laura, Jane and Elizabeth are in Bangor High Street (255 from his will in 1868) and Robert is widowed. I can't find a burial for Jane in Abererch or Llanarmon so I think she may have died in Bangor.
regards
David
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Only a minor point but FindMyPast,at least,certainly has Elizabeth in both the 1851 and 1861 censuses.
Is there any key issue/relationship that still needs resolving?
Regards
Roger
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You're right, I'm seeing too many names!!
I think I'm pretty relaxed about the relationships now. Over time I'll try and find some deaths that are missing such as Jane Williams born 1803 who married Richard Edwards and then Robert Griffith.it looks like she died between 1851 and 1861. And I'll do bit of tidying up next time I'm in the County Archives.
Thanks for all your help.
regards
David
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Hello. I stumbled across some messages you posted on Rootschat some years ago. My main area of interest is John Jones Talysarn, and his descendants and ancestors. I wonder if you have made any further progress over the years?
I think I am connected to Hedd Moelwynog via my great great grandfather on my mother's side. Then via Angharad James. But I am keen to prove the link with hard evidence.
Would be grateful for any pointers.
Dewi
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Hello Dewi
I'm not related to John Jones Talysarn and I have not done any work on his blood family. Frances Edwards the wife of John Jones Talysarn had a brother called Richard Edwards. Richard Edwards married Jane Williams (born 1803 and died between 1851 and 1861) of Rhosgill Fawr, Llanarmon who was a first cousin of my great*3 grandfather, Robert Owen of Ty Tan y Fron Uwchmynydd Aberdaron (1770-1859).
I'm sorry I have not done any work on the family of John Jones Talysarn. I've done a little bit of work on the family of Frances Edwards.
regards
David
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Thank you David. your info is much appreciated.
Dewi
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Thank you big g for the info.
Dewi
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I am researching my great, great, great, great grandfather Rev John Jones of Talysarn.
I have quite a comprehensive family tree of his ancestors.
I know he had 8 children but have no details of any descendants of those. I only have my grandmothers family.
(My grandmother descending from his daughter Anne who married Rev Robert Owen.)
If anyone has info please let me know.
Sian
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Hello Sian, are you on Ancestry, if so I maybe able to help you.
Dewi
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Hello Sian
As you may have gathered from my previous posts I am not directly descended from John Jones Talysarn. I have a connection by marriage to Frances Edwards wife of John Jones Talysarn through her brother Richard who married into my family.
There is a further yet to be proved connection through Gwen daughter 1838-1918 of John Jones Talysarn and Frances Edwards. Her son, Professor John Glyn Davies maintained that there was a connection to my family other than the one I mentioned above. However that was on John Glyn Davies's father's side rather than his mother's Gwen's side. I have yet to prove that one.
If you're on Ancestry you'd able to see what I've done on my tree.
regards
David
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Hello, I am also related to William Pritchard 16381718
BIRTH 1638 Penamnen, Dolwyddelan, Caernarvonshire
DEATH 1718 Dolwyddelan, Caernarvonshire, Wales
2nd great-grandfather of wife of uncle of husband of 3rd great-aunt
Does the surname 'Oliver' mean anything to anyone?
Regards
Dewi
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I'm sorry I can't help. I'm not related to William Prichard 1638-1718 of Dolwyddelan.
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Thank you.
Dewi