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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Bedfordshire Lookup Requests => Bedfordshire => England => Bedfordshire Completed Look ups => Topic started by: pinefamily on Thursday 04 August 11 11:04 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I am hoping there is a kind rootschatter or two that has access to the Campton PR's. I am after any references for the surname Bentham in christening and burial records between 1625 and 1645. Also, is there a marriage for Francis Bentham 1624-25?
I know this sounds a lot, but as far as I know there is only one family unit.
Thanking you in advance,
Darren
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Campton baptisms and marriages have been extracted onto the IGI at www.familysearch.org, so can be easily done yourself. Francis Bentham baptised seven children between 1626 and 1638
Burials in Campton are
George Bentham 18 Aug 1626
Elizabeth Bentham 5 March 1639
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Thank you for that. yes, I did get the data from the IGI, but I didn't know if it was complete, or whether there may have been any extra info in the original register.
Cheers,
Darren
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From the Campton with Shefford parish records transcript - the first 6 of the baptisms say that Francis Bentham was of Shefford while the 7th says he's of Campton. The 1628 burial has Francis of Shefford while the 1639 burial has him of Campton. For all the of the 'of Shefford' entries, he is listed as a Draper.
regards John
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Thanks John, that's the sort of thing I was looking for. That confirms that this is the same Francis Bentham. My wife's ancestor was a draper, who moved to London sometime in the 1640's. Interestingly, I have a reference for him that says he was a draper from Stafford; this sent me on the wrong path for a bit. Possibly someone has mixed up Shefford and Stafford.
Many thanks,
Darren
PS Francis was also the ancestor of Jeremy Bentham, the philosopher.
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Just to clarify: Francis Bentham was the grandson of Thomas Bentham, the Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield; that's possibly why Shefford and Stafford got mixed up. Francis' father, also Thomas, was vicar of Hockliffe, where Francis was christened.
Once again, many thanks to all,
Darren
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When Richard Redman died 1647 at St. Sepulchre, Newgate, London, Middlesex, England he left a will mentioning Uncle Bryan Bentham and kinsman Francis Bentham and wife Margaret. [Will of Richard Redman of Saint Sepulchre without Newgate, Middlesex Catalogue reference: PROB 11/201/190 National Archives, London]. The parents of Richard were Abraham Redman, draper, and Sarah Balthrop. Any further details on how this Redman family is related to the Bentham family?
best regards,
Matt Redman
Chestertown, MD, USA
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Hi Matt, and welcome to Rootschat. :)
I haven't come across the name Redman before with the Bentham's, but there is obviously a connection of some kind.
If Richard's mother's name was Balthorp, then he can't be related through his mother. Do you know what his wife's maiden name was?
I had a quick look at his will; it is interesting that an Edward Gregory senior was a witness, as Bryan Bentham's son married a Gregory.
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Richard Redman's wife was named Elizabeth but I don't know her maiden name or their marriage date. I figure the most obvious way that Bryan Bentham could be Richard Redman's uncle is a link through marriage by one of his father Abraham Redman's sisters. Richard's aunt Elizabeth Redman married Rafe Bury son of Haseldine Bury & Margaret Chapman. There was another sister to Abraham (so Richard Redman's aunt) named Frances Redman [Christening 17 Mar 1583 • Christchurch Greyfriars, Newgate St., London, Middlesex, England] but I have no further info. Do you know who the wife of this "Uncle" Bryan Bentham was?
Another way Bryan can be the uncle of Richard Redman is by Bryan's marriage to one of Sarah Balthrop's sisters. I have no further info on this family except that Sara(h) was from Christ Church parish, aged 26 in 1630 when she married Abraham Redman, and her father was dead at that time so she married "at her own disposing".
Regarding Edward Gregory of St Dunstan-in- the-West--"I wrote about Jeremy Gregory previously in Clocks Magazine in April 2007 but as new information comes to light it seems to me worth writing about him again. He was born in 1621, the son of Edward Gregory of St. Dunstan's in the West, London. Edward was a spectacle maker and a member of the Goldsmith's Company, apprenticed in 1597 to James Dehammel and freed in 1606." Collecting Antique Clocks, Jeremy Gregory's lantern clocks.
Brian & Joy Loomes
Calf Haugh Farmhouse
Pateley Bridge, Harrogate
North Yorkshire HG3 5HW
England
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Bryan Bentham, son of Francis, married Alice Cockain/Cokayne, daughter of Charles Cokayne, goldsmith. The other problem is this Bryan is too young to be an uncle of Richard Redman.
Looking at your information, I think that Sarah Balthrop was Abraham's second wife. If they married in 1630, then Richard would have been only 17 or younger in 1647. And looking at Abraham's will, he only mentions son Richard, yet Richard names two brothers in his will. I would think Richard is either the oldest or youngest son of Abraham. So Abraham's first wife could have been a Bentham.
Francis Bentham came from Bedfordshire some time after 1639. There was another Bryan Bentham who married and had at least one daughter in Leighton Buzzard in the 1590's. I have yet to find a connection with Francis. If this is the "Uncle Bryan", then perhaps he was a cousin of Francis? That would account for the term kinsman; if this second Bryan was a brother of Francis, then Francis would be an uncle too.
Regarding the Brian Loomes info, Edward Gregory's son Jeremy was the father of Ann, who married Bryan Bentham, the son of Bryan Bentham and Alice Cokayne.
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What you say makes sense. I have not come across a record of it but Abraham Redman could have married a Bentham before Sara(h) Balthrop. He was age 50 when he married Sara. Could a 17 yr old (or less) write a will?
Abraham Redman is mentioned in his father John Redman's will of 1612--John too was a draper. One of Abraham's apprentices was Thomas Claiborne brother of Col. William Claiborne who figures so prominently in the founding of VA and MD in the US. Another apprentice is mentioned in Abraham's will as a witness: Hugh Wingfield.
My notes regarding Francis Bentham--"The various branches of the Bentham family were descended from a common ancestor, Thomas Bentham (c.1513–1579), who was born at Sherburn in Yorkshire and became bishop of Coventry and Lichfield in 1559. The bishop's grandson, Francis Bentham (d. 1670), a draper from Stafford, migrated to London, and established the London branch of the family. Francis's son, Bryan (b. 1627), was Bentham's great-great-grandfather, and his son, also Bryan (b. 1657), was master of the Clothworkers' Company."
from Bentham, Jeremy (1748–1832), philosopher, jurist, and reformer by F. Rosen
http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/printable/2153
Regarding Bryan Bentham, Uncle of Richard Redman:
"8 Bryan Bentham
Bryan Bentham was born about 1656/7. At the time of his marriage, the license dated 17 Mar 1680/1 calls him "Bryan Bentham, Jr of St Botolph's, clothworker" and aged "about 24". Bryan Bentham and Anne Gregory were the parents of Jeremiah Bentham baptised 1683 in that same parish. Bryan became Master of the Clothworkers' Company in 1693. One of this name was Churchwarden at St Botolph's in 1701. (Source) Secondary sources also call him a pawnbroker, who "lost money by the stop of the Exchequer in 1672", which is quite unlikely, as this one was only 15 years old. It's more likely that our Bryan was the son of yet another Bryan."
Ancestry of Jeremy Bentham-- 2012 by Will Johnson
https://sites.google.com/site/countyhistorian/ancestry-of-jeremy-bentham
So maybe Richard Redman's Uncle Bryan Bentham is the son of bishop Thomas Bentham? Bryan might be the father of the Francis Bentham mentioned as Richard's kinsman? Bryan b. 1627 would be a son of Francis Bentham, (Francis the kinsman to Richard Redman), and grandson of Bryan Bentham, "Uncle" to Richard Redman?
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That first piece you have quoted led me astray for a little while; Francis was a draper from Shefford in Bedfordshire, not Stafford. Whoever wrote that article obviously thought that because Thomas was the Bishop of Lichfield and Coventry in Staffordshire, then that's where Francis came from. The bishop had a son Thomas and a son Benjamin, the only children to live to adulthood I believe. As far as I have researched, Thomas junior became vicar of Hockliffe in 1595; Francis was baptised there in 1605.
Francis married a Margaret; I have yet to find a marriage for them. One of their sons was Bryan Bentham baptised in 1627 in Campton, Bedfordshire. He married Alice Cokaine/Cokayne as I mentioned earlier. One of their sons was Bryan born in 1657, who married Ann Gregory in 1681.
There are two possibilities that I can see. Whether it is Abraham Redman's first wife, or even John Redman's wife, Agnes, that is the connection to the Bentham's, I think this "Uncle" Bryan Bentham is either a son or grandson of Benjamin Bentham, or a nephew to Francis (he had some older brothers as far as I can tell).
I hope this makes sense.
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The connection is likely to be as you say. I am having trouble reading the wills of Abraham Redman and his son Richard Redman verbatim, especially that Latin portion. Trying to figure out the old script is a challenge. Finding evidence or clues is hard going. There is a public record in the National Archives, Kew, date range 1625-1660 that I hope to get a copy of at some point: C 2/Chasl/R40/55 [Redman v Bury. Plaintiffs: Redman by guardian. Defendants: Bury and others. Document type: pleadings]. As I say, I cannot make out the Latin well in Abraham Redman's will but I think Elizabeth Bury, Abraham Redman's sister, acts as guardian to Richard Redman who was a minor at the time of his father's death. If I find anything I will share.
http://mediasvc.ancestry.com/v2/image/namespaces/1093/media/e04d1e91-dca1-4de7-be60-9fded7aedc8c.jpg?client=Tree
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Post an attachment of the Latin section on the Handwriting and Deciphering Board on here. There are some very clever people that can translate it for you. My Latin is a bit rusty, and together with the handwriting I struggle with it.
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Thanks for the advice. I posted accordingly.
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The Latin portion of Abraham Redman's 1636 Will as read and translated by "Bookbox" on Rootschat:
On the twenty-seventh day of the month of October in the year of the Lord one thousand six hundred and thirty-six a grant was issued to Elizabeth Bury alias Redman, sister of the said deceased, to administer the goods, rights and credits of the same deceased, according to the tenor and effect of this will, during the minority of Richard Redman, son of the said deceased – because William Willet and Peter Kevell, the executors named in the aforesaid will, for certain reasons affecting them and their associates, expressly renounced the burden of execution of the will of the said deceased; sworn on the Holy Evangelists of God to well (and truly administer) etc. Examined.
(In other words, the executors declined to act, so a grant of administration was made to Abraham Redman’s sister Elizabeth Bury to handle the estate, because Abraham’s son Richard was still under 21.)
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Yes, I saw that. I knew Bookbox or one of the other very talented people on that board would be able to translate it for you.
Interesting about Richard's age. Can you connect the Richard that wrote the will of 1647 to the Richard, son of Abraham? The Richard of 1647 was married, so should have been at least 21 or more in 1647, which makes him born at least c.1626. If he is the same Richard, then he could have been born no earlier than c.1616 (under 21 in 1636). That gives you a 10 year window roughly for Richard's birth.
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I cannot be sure at this point if Richard Redman d. 1647 was the son of Abraham Redman d. 1636. But he is not yet ruled out. In any case, Richard was not the son of Sara Balthrop who married Abraham Redman in 1630. If Richard was Abraham's son then the oldest Richard could be at death was age 31. I have to check to see when Elizabeth (Redman) Bury's husband Rafe Bury died. Richard whose father died in 1636 might have been living with the Burys. Also, there were brothers of Richard who died in 1647; and Bentham relatives; and Richard's widow Elizabeth.
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You might need to read through any relevant wills to find a connection. I will have another look at the Bentham wills, leaving you to look at any Redman or Bury wills.
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Thanks. As well, as I mentioned before, there is a pleading in the Nat'l Archives Kew entitled Redman v Bury that I want to order soon. As I already have an order in and no reply as yet for another Redman record I will wait until the first order is completed.
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I did not notice before but Abraham Redman is listed as a bachelor at the time of his marriage in 1630 to spinster Sara Balthrop--so Richard Redman who was kin to the Bentham family and who d. 1647 was very likely not the son of Abraham Redman, draper, who died in 1636. The son Richard of this Abraham Redman would be at most 6 years old at the death of his father in 1636. If this Richard were identical to the one that dies leaving a wife in 1647 he would have been, at most, age 17 at the time of his passing. Do you have any further insights? This is the transcription of the marriage record:
"Dec. 16
1630 Thomas Axtell of Christ Church, London, grocer, allegeth that Abraham Redman of the same parish, draper, bachelor, aged 44, intendeth to marry Sara Balthrop of the same parish, spinster, aged 26, at her own disposing, her father deceased; at St. Matthew Friday Street."
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I wouldn't take it as gospel, especially given the age difference. At this stage, perhaps rule him out temporarily, until you can find some further proof either way.
Concentrate on the Richard Redman of the 1647 will, and the names and places associated with him. This Richard could still be related to Abraham, just not as we think.
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What follows is pure supposition at this point, but it is certainly worth following up in my opinion.
On the public trees on Ancestry, I found a tree with a Richard Redman b. c.1588 in Thornton in Lonsdale in Yorkshire; there is a corresponding baptism on familysearch. He was the son of Nicholas Redman and wife Margaret, according to the public tree.
Doing a search on familysearch for any Bryan Bentham's in Yorkshire, I found a plausible connection with a Bryan Bentham baptised in 1561 in Horton in Ribblesdale, probably 10 km from Thornton in Lonsdale. This Bryan was the son of William Bentham. Interestingly, a William Bentham had a daughter Margaret baptised in 1562 in the same parish. More interesting, a Bryan Bentham had a son Francis baptised in 1600.
Could this be your Richard Redman? Could he have gone to London from Yorkshire? The names match up if I am correct in my theory. Bryan Bentham would have been a maternal uncle in this case, and Francis a cousin.
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Your supposition is plausible and I appreciate the additional information. I am more concentrated at this point on Abraham Redman who I thought might be the father of Richard who d. 1647. Now that it seems less likely that there is a close relationship I have to set my investigation of Richard and his Bentham relatives aside. I don't expect you to find this particularly interesting for your own research going forward but I am trying to establish a connection between my certain ancestor named John Redman (b. abt 1623) who died in 1673 in Westmoreland Co., VA and a John Redman who was a London merchant, age 46, who came to VA on The Globe in 1635. On The Globe passenger list next to John Redman is Thomas Axtell age 35. Thomas Axtell, grocer of Christ Church, was the name of the person who alleged the wedding intentions of Abraham Redman & Sara Balthrop in 1630. Not certain if this is a coincidence or a connection. At any rate, I very much thank you for your helpfulness and insight.
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There is a will for an Elizabeth Redman, widow, in the London wills on Ancestry who named a daughter Ann Smith, who was living in Virginia; I couldn't make out the name because I am unfamiliar with American place names. I had taken note of it, given where you are from.
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Thanks. I'll try to find it.