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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Resources => Topic started by: DavidTaylor on Tuesday 09 August 11 22:56 BST (UK)
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HELLO!
I'm from New York and visited SJAH several years ago after learning that I had family buried there. As an amateur genealogist and after quite a lot of researching and discovery of the burial spot of my ancestors, I was very saddened to see that all the stones in the cemetery had been pulled up. I felt as if I had hit a dead end (no pun intended!) and would never know were this grave was or what it said...
I spent money on researchers to see if the grave inscriptions had been documented, only to be told they could not find them or they were never recorded.
About a year ago, I was looking at old microfilm at a Mormon family research center in NYC and literally stumbled on these inscriptions by accident! They were categorized unclearly and listed under St Thomas Square for some reason... Anyway, here is what I was looking for:
INSCRIPTION: The Family grave/ of/ George and Grace Taylor/ In
memory of 'John Taylor' who died the 2nd of May 1814/ aged 2 years and
6 months Also Kitty Taylor/ who died 18th Dec 1814/ aged 8 years and 8
months Also the above/ George Taylor who died the 22 of June 1836 aged
53 years/ Also the above Grace Taylor who died the 23 of May 1844/
aged 68 years Also Emily Taylor grand daughter of the above/ who died
13 Feb 1844 aged 8 months Also Caroline Truth Taylor daughter in law
of the above who died 21 June 1881/ aged 65 years Also George Fredrick
Taylor/ who died 8 Jan 1892 aged 77 years.
That is my direct line but I found other family members as well (Petifer, Cox, etc)
Anyone who is looking for their family grave inscription can find the Mormon Research center near them, listed at familysearch.org, and have this microfilm delivered at minimal cost ( I think I paid about $7.50) It's film #1040361, item #9 here is the link..
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/show?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fcatalog-search-api%3A8080%2Fwww-catalogapi-webservice%2Fitem%2F257861
Regards,
David Taylor
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Hi
The independent burial ground of St Thomas Square Hackney is not the parish churchyard of St John Hackney.
St Thomas Square Burial Ground, Mare Street, Hackney, E8 (1787-1876) was an independent chapel burial ground (though by the nineteenth century several of these non-conformist burial grounds had been bought by private speculators). There is a link given in the London and Middlesex burial guide at the top of the main Rootschat boards to the website London Burials which details London churchyards and early burial grounds in each area of London and under Hackney gives details of St Thomas Square Mare Street burial ground with a modern day photograph. This burial ground was laid out as a garden in 1888 (it is therefore unlikely there were any exhumations necessary and this would be were your Taylor family remain buried).
A modern description (given on the website)
'The entrance from St Thomas’ Place remains, but the main gate, a high pedimented portico, is in Mare St . A narrow entry path opens into a pleasant rectangle, with a variety of surrounding buildings: St John Theologos church, Cordwainers’ School,etc. There are table tombs, headstones at the walls, and moderately overgrown flowerbeds. The shelter is a minimalist Tudor oddity. There is one ravaged early 19thc mausoleum.'
http://www.burial.magic-nation.co.uk/bghackney.htm
The actual registers for this burial ground were deposited with the government and so are held by The National Archives. For an explanation of why non-conformist records particularly pre 1837 (post more likely with local county record offices) are held by The National Archives see the burial guide.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ekv/
Images of the registers are online
http://www.bmdregisters.co.uk/
http://www.thegenealogist.co.uk/
However if you look under the collections held at Hackney Archives - under Tyssen (in the link below - The Tyssen library formed the basis of the Hackney Metropolitan Borough local history collection) there are monumental inscriptions in existence for St John Hackney as well.
'copy of monumental inscriptions for St John at Hackney, South Hackney, St Thomas Square Chapel and New Gravel Pit Chapel 1787-1850'
http://www.hackney.gov.uk/c-archives-comprehensive-page12.htm
Indexed as such in the LDS catalogue
Hackney, Middlesex, England - Cemeteries
Title: Monumental inscriptions from the old churchyard, St. John's Church, Hackney, 1685-1858
Authors: Church of England. St. John's Church (Hackney, Middlesex)
Microfilm copy of original records in the Hackney Borough Archives, Tyssen Collection, London.
Film Items: Microfilm 1656256 Item 1 1799-1858 Item 2 indexes 1685-1858 Item 3 Monumental inscriptions with indexes for: South Hackney Church St. Thomas' Square Chapel New Gravel Pit Chapel
http://www.londonfhc.org/content/catalogue?c=76&p=England,England,Middlesex,Hackney&f=1
so as they are all contained on the same microfilm perhaps the inscriptions are from St John Hackney churchyard. If the burials are in the church registers deposited at the London Metropolitan Archives and digitalised on Ancestry then it would be St John's.
as well (worth looking at) from Hackney Archives and in the LDS catalogue
'pedigrees of Hackney families 1658-1858'
The London and Middlesex burial guide does state
'The local archives and history centres in the present day thirty two London boroughs may have produced transcriptions and indexes of the parish registers and monumental inscriptions'.
and
'It is worth checking their catalogue (LDS) to see which parish and cemetery registers they hold on microfilm in their Film catalogue'
http://www.londonfhc.org/content/catalogue?p=England,England
Both types of online catalogues are well worth searching, or if the local London borough archives don't have their holdings online (increasingly many like Hackney do) and on microfilm, contacting them to see what specifically they hold that may be of help. Ancestry only has a deal to put online some holdings of the London Metropolitan Archives (the equivalent of the county record office for London) and the Guildhall Library (the City of London Archives - the 'square mile'). It has no deal with the 32 local London borough archives. These local archives catalogues as well as the vast collections at the LMA and the Guildhall Library that are not online should not be overlooked.
The LMA cataolgue is not the easiest to search and increasingly it is entering its holdings onto AIM25.
http://www.aim25.ac.uk/search/
In the past with lottery funding (now ceased) the LMA and London Boroughs placied some of their holdings on A2A. Here the entry for the monumental inscriptions of St Thomas Square from Hackney Archives on A2A for instance
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ekx/
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda!
I know St Thomas was not St John....My family were DEFINITELY buried at St John, I have burial registers. My point was I could never find the inscriptions. For some reason, they were scanned by the Mormons under a piece of film titled St Thomas.. however if you look further, items 1-8 are St Thomas, but hidden under item number 9 it lists GRAVE INSCRIPTIONS OF ST JOHN OF HACKNEY PARISH! That's why I could never find them... I believe I looked at the other film you mentioned on St John Graves... It was incomplete. This "Item 9" under film 1040361, seems to be the rest of them.
Thanks
David
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Hi David
Then it seems to be an LDS indexing issue (and the thoroughness of the professional researchers you used previously)?
Along with Hackney Archives own catalogue entry online, they also put the information on A2A
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=084-dftys&cid=5-2&kw=monumental inscriptions#5-2
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=084-dftys&cid=5-3&kw=monumental inscriptions#5-3
In previous years pre the internet (A2A has been around for a few years now) this information wouldn't have been online but a local London professional researcher should have checked with Hackney Archives for you as a matter of course. The Tyssen Collection which these monumental inscriptions are part of was deposited with Hackney in 1882.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=084-dftys&cid=0#0
Regards
Valda
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DEFINITELY and indexing issue! and I couldn't agree more on the thoroughness of the researcher. I got someone based on this reputation on writing books and being on television etc. He has been less than thorough at times and usually takes along time (up to 8 months!) and usually does not provide the amount of information you would think for that time... Needless to say he isn't used anymore. However, I really think this bit of film was in a spot people wouldn't seem to look. I think I was looking up St Thomas because it was right down the road (Well Street) from where my family lived and I wanted to see if any of them WERE in there.. then I found this item #9 which mentioned St John's.. Surprise!
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Hi
There was a different burial ground again in Well Street. I believe that one was connected to St John of Jerusalem South Hackney church (Lauriston Road) so not non-conformist. It can be found
'St Thomas’ Place running north from Wells St on the west'.
St Thomas non-conformist burial ground was in Mare Street. In fact there were two in Mare Street because the Baptists also had a small burial ground there.
Well Street interesects with Mare Street to the south.
The microfilm covered South Hackney churchyard monumental inscriptions as well. The other Hackney Anglican church was St John the Baptist Lower Clapton Road further north.
Regards
Valda
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Hello everyone, I'm researching four family members that were all buried on the same day at St.John at Hackney.
The burial date was 9th Sept 1854. I'm assuming that this family may have been a casualty of cholera.
I have searched for their official death registrations, but have been unable to find any one of them,
which would confirm the cholera theory?
Here are the names of the family:
Susannah Nalder
Annie Nalder
Frances Eveline Hoskins
Percy Nalder Hoskins.
I would be interested and grateful for anyone's thoughts on this..
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Hello everyone, I'm researching four family members that were all buried on the same day at St.John at Hackney.
The burial date was 9th Sept 1854. I'm assuming that this family may have been a casualty of cholera.
I have searched for their official death registrations, but have been unable to find any one of them,
which would confirm the cholera theory?
Here are the names of the family:
Susannah Nalder
Annie Nalder
Frances Eveline Hoskins
Percy Nalder Hoskins.
I would be interested and grateful for anyone's thoughts on this..
Hello:
Have you ordered any of their death certificates?
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They are not on the GRO index ;)
Sometimes notifications don't get passed through to the central indexes at the GRO, this could be what happened. I see a burial on the same day appears on the GRO index. It might be worth queryng it with the register office that covers that area
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Thanks guys.
I knew that these 4 burials were not on the GRO.
I'm in Canada, could you tell me which particular office to contact?
Thxs Anne
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Valdas post may help or try googling Hackney registration district. Sorry I can't be more help. Unfortunately the London Boroughs are not as helpful to London family historians as they are elsewhere in the country.
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Thanks Marquessate, I will give that a try!
Will let you know what happens.
Take care
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Deaths Sept 1854
HASKINS Frances Eveline Hackney 1b 228
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Details for requesting searches at Hackney register office can be found here
http://www.hackney.gov.uk/births-historical-searches.htm#.VM0cJLtybMw
Deaths are recorded in the area the death took place, not the place of burial. If they died away from home in another district ie a hospital, the death should be recorded elsewhere.#
I've had a good look around and agree the others are proving difficult to find.
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Sorry to raise this old issue but I too have a burial register entry for St John-at-Hackney for a Thomas James born 1795, died 1859, whose death cannot be traced in the GRO. I was lucky to have an exact date of death, i.e. 28 Feb 1859 taken from details of an inscription on the family vault found on the LDS film mentioned earlier in this chat and so requested a three year search by the GRO but without success.
The burial register entry for St J at H is for a Thomas James of the correct age and within a week of the death, i.e., 7 March 1859. Now that the GRO birth and death indexes are available, I have searched these and cannot trace a death confirming the GRO findings.
Of course, Thomas may not have died in the UK but was being remembered on the vault - his brother was buried in Blackburn and his sister in Eastbourne yet they are mentioned on the family vault so the burial register entry I found may not relate to the Thomas on the family vault.
Is it possible from your research numberfour that some notification of deaths in the Hackney Registration Office did not reach the General Registry Office?
Thank you for any thoughts you may have on this.
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exact date of death, i.e. 28 Feb 1859 taken from details of an inscription on the family vault found on the LDS film mentioned earlier in this chat and so requested a three year search by the GRO but without success.
Deaths are registered in the district where they took place, regardless of place of burial. So he may have died in another district, not Hackney. Perhaps he died in St Bartholomew’s Hospital, in the City of London? Hackney is adjacent to the City.
from the GRO death index ...
Mar Qtr 1859
JAMES Thomas, aged 67
London City vol 1c page 55
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Thank you for your prompt response Bookbox. I had seen this entry too knowing that while registration had to occur at the registry office for where the death occurred, burial could occur anywhere. The age though is not correct, however, this could be because the person registering the death did not know Thomas's actual age. I expect the only way I shall ever find out is by ordering this certificate.
Thank you for your input on this one.
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What is your source for his year of birth?
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He was one of six children born to Thomas James and Mary Heitman. Thomas was the fourth child and first born son. All were baptised within the City of London, some at St Olave, Hart Street, or Limehouse, St Giles Cripplegate. He was born in February 1795 and baptaised in early March.
Thanks for your interest.
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The baptism register shows his date of birth as 2 February 1795, so he would have been 64 at burial in March 1859, as stated in the burial register. If the London City death is his, his age in the index (67) is three years adrift, probably an acceptable margin of error.
The burial register shows his abode as West Ham, which is also adjacent to Hackney. I can see no death registration for him in the expected quarter (or the following one) in West Ham registration district. The only other Thomas James death in a ‘London’ district in the expected quarter was in Lambeth, aged 51, which is 13 years adrift. So, again, the London City registration seems feasible.
As regards death registrations in general, whilst some are known to be missing, it is more likely that an age is wrongly reported than that a registration is missing (as suggested earlier).
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Barts Hospital was in West London RD in 1859 (rather than London City RD)
Another problem might be that page reference (1c) 77, is possibly the first page of deaths of a particular sub district. And so might be too early on in the quarter for it to be the right Thomas James.
There is also a burial of a Thomas James, age 67, at the City of London & Tower Hamlets Cemetery, 23 January 1859.
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There is this death registration, if there was some kind of mix up with the name.
March 1859 West Ham 4a 3
Tame, Thomas
age 65
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All good points, jonw65.
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Thank you Bookbox and jonw65. The City of London entry (when age was 67) interested me too, however, jonw65 confirms the death as being in January whereas the family vault states 28 February 1859 so Thomas was just into his 65th year and the City of London registry entry can be excluded.
I am not very familiar with London and am not sure what the significance of the reference is to Barts Hospital? Please would you mind explaining this aspect (if you have the time). Of interest is the possibility of incorrect naming so perhaps I should investigate Thomas Tame next and see if he was around in censuses. What a pity the certificates are so expensive but I must not complain, we are a little better off now that indexes are being published by the GRO.
Thank you both for your suggestions and guidance.
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I am not very familiar with London and am not sure what the significance of the reference is to Barts Hospital? Please would you mind explaining this aspect (if you have the time).
Some deaths in unexpected registration districts are the result of people dying in hospital, rather than at home. I suggested that the City of London death might have been at Barts Hospital, which is in the City. But jonw65 reminded me that before 1870 Barts was not in that district but was in West London district. So my suggestion can safely be ignored, and my apologies for any confusion.
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Please don't apologise, I am just happy that you were able to respond and understand now. Thanks so much. I am going to investigate Thomas Tame just in case there is anything of significance here.
Thank you again for help given.