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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cheshire => England => Cheshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Poppyjoey on Monday 15 August 11 18:41 BST (UK)
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Hi,
My 5 x Great Grandfather, James Finch, was an ale house keeper at the Elephant and Castle in Halton - there is a trade directory entry for 1822/3.
I cannot find anything for the Elephant and Castle Pub or Inn on google and wondered if anyone can help.
Thank you
Julie
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Hi Julie,
I couldn't find anything on the Elephant and Castle either but maybe this will help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halton,_Cheshire
This mentions a pub called the Castle Hotel - could it be the one you are looking for?
Jean
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Hi Jean,
Thanks very much for that. I had found a Castle Hotel in Halton, but the trade directory entry clearly says Elephant and Castle. Perhaps for some reason it was known as that but the official name was the Castle Hotel.....
Regards
Julie
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It could be that it changed over time - have you tried looking at later directories to see what is there?
www.historicaldirectories.org
and some published by Cheshire Records Office:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,497342.msg2202698.html#msg2202698
Jean
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Jean,
Those links are great thanks. The only reference I can find refers to the Castle Hotel, but I will save the links as there are other things I'll be looking up.
Thank you
Julie
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Julie,
The Elephant and Castle was a different establishment to the Castle Hotel. William Dearden is listed as the tenant of an establishment bearing this name on the 1845 tithe appointments. The plot is located more-or-less opposite Halton Rectory on the Castle Road which actually leads to the Castle Hotel. The site of this plot is currently occupied by a residential dwelling called Hill House which is 5 minutes walk away from where I live. This was supposedly the site of a tavern as far back as the 17th century, however: the current building appears to have been either completely rebuilt or extensively re-modelled towards the end of the 19th Century (it is not a listed building, not yet anyway)
William Dearden (aka Dierden) vacated the premises by 1857 according to the county electoral rolls and the building seems to have been renamed "Halton Hill" based on the predictable schedule logic of Castle Road. This is occupied by George Burkett, a retired draper from Warrington on the 1861 and 1871. The sign of "Elephant and Castle" is subsequently used for beer houses in at least two other locations in the village up to the 1911 census.
Hope this helps,
Regards and happy hunting
Chris
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Hi Chris,
Thanks so much for this information. What a pity the original building seems to have gone. James Finch died in 1828, so William Dearden couldn't have taken over the tenacy from him.
I know James's grandson also James born Halton 1827 became a brewer too, in Manchester, but I haven't been able find out if his son Thomas Finch born Halton 1794 was a brewer, or if he took over the Elephant and Castle from his father. So far, I can't find any of them in the 1841 census, so, a lot more delving to do....
Again, thanks for your posting.
Julie
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Hi Julie,
You're welcome and I am glad that the information is of some use to you. I wouldn't be so sure that the building has been completely replaced since your ancestor was the proprietor but it has certainly seen several phases of (re) development judging by the slightly different types of brick fabric used in the present construction. The present building does follow the basic plan form of the 1845 tithe map although dating this back to the 17th century would be somewhat optimistic given that all of the surviving buildings from that period in the village are constructed from dressed sandstone blocks; most likely the abundance of spoil from the slighting of Halton Castle during the civil war.
You may find searching through the DBN series of documents at the Cheshire Archives relating to the Brooke estate, the manorial seat that the time you are interested in may yield some more evidence of the Finch family in Halton. For instance I have found the following on cursory glance:
- An invoice (DBN/D/18B3/12 ) made out by James Finch to Sir Richard Brooke dated 1815: for 2 bottles of gin (5/-) and ale (10/-)
- He also appears on a lease document from 1806 (DBN/D/1/12-13) although the exact details of the holding are not given.
There are also a couple of references in Pigots:
- 1828/9: James Finch is listed as the proprietor of the White Hart in Halton (same pub or name change??)
- 1834: William Mounfield is listed as the proprietor of the Elephant and Castle in Halton
Hope this helps further
cheers for now
Chris
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Hi again,
Thanks for that.
Obviously you're well informed about the history of Halton. I wouldn't have known about Sir Richard Brooke. There seems to be a lot of information held in the Cheshire Archives which you have pointed me to. I'm looking through them now. I'm amazed you found what you did on cursory glance - you clearly know what to look for! I'm very grateful for this.
I have his will giving his death as 17.2.1828. Unfortunately, the will states he is as ale-house keeper, but there is no mention of where.
I have found another son for James Finch - baptised as James in Halton 1802 - I would think the Pagots entry relates to him as his father James died Feb 1828.
Best wishes
Julie
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Hi again Julie,
Although you probably won't find these in the online catalogue: the alehouse recognizances which run up to 1828 list James Finch as the licensee of the E&C from 1790 after which it is John Prescot in 1828. There is a chance that the White Hart was a different alehouse/beer house opened by either himself his son or it could be that his son has applied for a licence at the same establishment and renamed it before moving on soon after. Unfortunately it is not really possible to tie these records to a specific building so an element of doubt must always be considered. Either way the information in Pigots for any given year is probably somewhat out-of-date.
Due to a change in the licensing laws after this period it can be difficult to trace individual licensees, particularly those of beerhouses of which tens of thousands opened across the country. Until the introduction of modern licensing laws at the turn of the 20th century this restricts the researcher to trade directories and census records as the primary source of data.
Halton/Runcorn was well connected by canal/packet from the 18th Century onwards and the LNWR Railway link to Liverpool was completed in 1869. This leaves plenty of avenues open for your ancestors to have left the area.
cheers for now
Chris
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Hi Julie and Chris
I've read all of the e mails about the Elephant and Castle with real interest. I live in the house on Castle Rd in Halton that used to be the Elephant and Castle ale house to which your e mails refer. I am trying to find the history of the house and have traced back the details of the previous tenants to William Dierden (Dearden) back in 1841 so it was of great interest that you have details relating to these premises prior to this date. There are no deeds with the house and we think part of the house dates back to the early 1700s especially the cellar which has dips in the steps where apparently the beer barrels were rolled for storage. However I don't think all of the premises date back that far. Any other info you discover would be very helpful to me. I am heading to Chester to look at the archives in a couple of weeks. If I find any further info I'll let you know
Jules
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Just to digress a little---- the name "Elephant and castle" has nothing to do with elephants and castles. It is a corruption of " The Infanta of Castile", probably Eleanor of Castile ,wife of Edward I.
The origin of pub names and their original meanings is very interesting----- well for those of us who need to get a life!!
Viktoria.
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Hi,
Viktoria, thanks for explaining the origins of the name. It does seem quite a corruption doesn't it? It's amazing how phrases change over time.
Jules,
Really good to hear that you actually live in the premises. I have a copy of the receipt for gin and ale sold to Sir Richard Brook in 1816 - if you PM me your email address I'll send it, tho' it's pretty faint. The John Prescott who is mentioned below, who took over the pub from James Finch, is an executor of James Finch's will, and was previously a butcher. You're more than welcome to a copy of this will too, but unfortunately it is very boring and doesn't mention the pub or anything about the pub.
If you do find anything about James Finch's time there from 1790 - 1828 I'd love to see it if that's OK.
Bye for now
Julie
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Hi it would be great to have a copy of anything that relates to our house. please e mail to * thanks Julie I'll send you anything of relevance that I dig up
regards
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Jules, what a small world it is that you actually live in the house. I grew up in the village and that house has always been a bit of a local landmark. Did you by any chance notice if the footings in the cellar are sandstone block or the same brick as the building above ground? The extent of the cellar should give you a decent idea of the original footprint of the building. The 1845 tithe map of Halton presents a fine level of detail in terms of building features and the porch area was not present at that time, this appeared sometime before 1881 and possibly as early as 1875 judging by the large scale OS maps of that period plus the roof and frontage features are typical 19th century Tudor revival.
The first recognizance records for the Elephant and Castle are dated 1753 to Thomas Chadwick although this is no guarantee that the record is tied to a particular building. The Elephant and Castle name disappeared in 1928 but at that time the pub was located on Main Street near the Village Hall and Halton House. There was also a Prospect Inn, Village Inn and a Red Lion among various other unnamed beerhouses over the years. I believe that the Red Lion was the large, white house with the ornamental Lintels (of Lions) 3 doors away from Dickie Dones old shop, but I digress.
Jule, well done on getting hold of the receipt and interesting to hear about John Prescott. There was a village butchers shop in one of the cottages at the bottom of Castle Road. The oldest of those cottages dates back to around 1710.
all the best and happy hunting,
Chris
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Thanks Chris
we love the house. The cellar is built into the local bedrock and isn't as extensive as the footprint of the house above it. We assumed that an older building had stood on the site in the 1700s but had been replaced in the early 1800s. We hope we can find more details when we visit the archives in Chester. If you have any further info or know where we can get hold of anything more please let me know. In which part of Halton do you live, you have very extensive knowledge of the area
kindest regards
Julie
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Sorry to resurrect and old post but we now live in this premises and I have just found this thread. Fascinating reading. There is what appears to be a painting in the house which depicts the Elephant and Castle which you may find interesting. No idea of artist or age but it is painted on to small wooden boards.
https://ibb.co/kXFBV7
https://ibb.co/h9FdA7
https://ibb.co/dsObxn