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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: MAPS on Friday 19 August 11 12:53 BST (UK)
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Hi there,
Can anyone give me any information at all about the immigrant ship "Lord Delaval"which was built in Berwick-upon-Tweed in 1852 and sailed on the 13th Sept. 1852, for London and then on to Port Phillip [Melbourne], Australia where it arrived on the 27th Feb. 1853.
I am interested in the passengers by the name of Hill.
I do have an arrival list of passengers but I do not know where the passengers embarked. Ideally I'd like to know if the Hill family embarked in London or not.
There were supposedly 50 passengers who came from Berwick-upon-Tweed. There were also Scottish passengers.
I would be very grateful for any information and also advice.
MAPS
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Does the arrival list show where the passengers came from (county/country)? I'm not sure if there is such a thing as lists of where each passenger embarked. The closest I've seen is port of departure. These details plus name of Captain, Dates of Departure etc should be noted on the ships lists upon arrival. ;)
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I have a copy that was taken from a micro-fiche and not a very good one at that. A researcher in Australia found it for me.
It gives the following:
Ship's name/ Master's name/ tons per Register etc./ Where Berthed.
Signature of the Master.
Names and descriptions of Passengers.
Ports of Embarkation/ Names of Passengers/ Adults/Children/infants/Profession etc/ State whether Eng. Scots or Irish./Port at which Passengers have contracted to land.
On the first page in the first column is written LONDON but this is the only place it's been written in. I think the person filling in the form assumed they all came from London. In the last column is written Port Phillip.
No county has been given only whether the passenger is Eng. or Scot. I thought Berwick-upon Tweed was in England.
I did find an article in an Australian newspaper that mentions that Under the heading of "Select Christian Emigration" several ships were announced to leave London in October and November [1852], for Australia etc etc.... .The "Blackheath"was to sail on the 18th Oct., the " Lord Delaval" on 25th Oct.
Any ideas of where else I could look ?
MAPS
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I think that means all passengers embarked in London rather than it being their place of origin ie they would have travelled there from various places to board the ship. The information you were given is typical for an immigration record - some give a little more, some less. There may be no further information recorded. The officials were more interested in who was coming in rather than who was departin,g so you will find more detail on arrival than departure.
Yes, I think Berwick upon Tweed is in Northumberland (England.) Do you think your Hill family originated there?
Are you attempting to identify your Hill family? Have you looked at bmd records in Australia to see if you can locate them? Hill is a common name so I imagine it will be difficult to pin them down unless they have unusual forenames.
I'm still not sure what speicifically you are looking for. People usually start looking for immigrations if a family cannot be found on the census. Do you have your Hills in the 41 and 51 censuses?
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Hi Ruskie,
I'd better explain my tactics in trying to find out more about the "Lord Delaval" and it's passengers.
My GG Grandfather was born in England but am not sure where. London or Bristol. I have no birth date or parents names for him. He was born in 1813 and this was calculated from his death reg. entry and from the census.
He and his family were in both the 1841 and 1851 London Censuses. He gave London as his birth place in 1841 and Bristol in the 1851 Census.
He was definately in New Zealand in 1855 but I've no idea how he got there. His son John was also there with him. His wife and daughter didn't arrive in New Zealand until 1858. There are stories that he came to NZ from Australia.
The John Hill aged 39, and John Hill junior aged 12, on the "Lord Delaval"have the correct ages and John senior's occupation wasShoe/Bootmaker which also fits. The 3rd Hill passenger was a Charles Hill also given as son aged 11. This doesn't match but he could have been a relation ??
What I'm trying to do is find out exactly where these three embarked. If they embarked in Berwick then they cannot be my ancestors. If they got on in London then there still may be a chance.
I was also going to attempt to find anybody in Aus. who had ancestors that sailed on the same ship using Rootschat but thought I'd start first in Northumberland seeing as that's where the story began and where the Ship left from.
I hope that makes everything clearer for you.
MAPS
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Sorry Ruskie I forgot to give you this Genuki page which gives the passenger list.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/Indexes/PassengerLists/LordDelaval.html
MAPS
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Hi MAPS - that makes it all a lot clearer, thank you. :)
Some initial thoughts:
You mention the death reg entry, but do you have John's NZ death certificate? Might it name his parents or place of origin as an Australian d/c does? Have you checked obituaries in case there is mention of where he was from?
Have you searched Australia to see if there are any John Hills or Charles Hills who remained there and married or died? You may need help from the Australian board.
I would say that there is a very good chance that these Hills are yours and the same Hills that ended up in NZ. The occupation is right, the names and ages are right, the fact that they travelled without wife and daughter who later came to NZ all fits in well. How sure are you that the Charles Hill aged 12 who travelled on the Lord Delaval is not son of John? Did he also go to NZ? If not yours he could well have been a nephew or other relative, or perhaps it was a co-incidence and he was no relation.
I may be wrong but I think you may a better response to this on either the Australia or NZ boards. :-\ I'm not sure how much luck you will have trying to find them embarking in the UK ... Maybe you should post the question on the NZ board to see if anyone can locate their arrival there? (I can't help with NZ immigration) I know there was quite a lot of too-ing and fro-ing from Australia to NZ and vice versa.
One last thought - in the 1841 census the only clue to origin is whether or not the person was born in the county. Was John living in the City of London in 1841? (or Middlesex? ;)
fF you go ahead and post about your Hills on the Australia or NZ board, provide a link to this post to give some background to the story. ;)
I will let you know if I come up with any other ideas.
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Can you provide the references to the family in the 1841 and 1851 censuses? (I had a quick look for them in 1851 without success) ...
Do you know who John snr married and do you have their marriage certificate (if post 1837)?
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Berwick upon Tweed is at the moment within the English county of Northumberland.
It is debatable whether it was regarded as within England in the 1850s.
After frequently switching between England and Scotland up to 1482, it was regarded as been in England since then.
However in the C19th some proclamations listed Berwick as separate from both Scotland and England.
The most widely known example was the British declaration of war ( with allies France and Turkey) against Russia ( the " Crimean War" ) in 1853. Supposedly signed by " Victoria, Queen of Great Britain, Ireland and Berwick upon Tweed"
Michael
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Hello Micheal,
Thanks for giving me that interesting information about Berwick-upon-Tweed.
Regards MAPS
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Although this is absolutely not conclusive, only a very rough guide, it is interesting -
Enter the surname Hill and date 1881 here:
http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/
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Thanks for that Ruskie. I got a bit held up while writing my last message and found your last one an hour or two later.
Yes it's interesting and I did read somewhere years ago about the name Hill being most common in the West Country.
There is actually another puzzle about this Hill family. We've been told there was a so called German connection but I have discovered that there were quite a few people named Hill/Berg, or Hill- Berg in the Somerset area. That's for another day.
Thanks again, MAPS
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Hello there, (Jenny?);
I read with interest about your Hills traveling aboard the Lord Delaval on Rootschat and the Borders site.
I'm writing to share the fact that my great great grandparents were travelling aboard that vessel on the very same journey, arriving in Port Philip on Feb 27, 1853. My family lived in Middlesex but had connections with both Bristol and Berwickshire. I wouldn't be surprised if our families even knew each other if not before the journey at least during it. In addition, my grandfather's uncle happened to be a boot maker in Bristol.
I realize that eventually you discovered your Hills embarked in Berwick and hopefully by now you've found the answers to questions about their lives once arriving in Australia and New Zealand. I myself have just discovered that my third great grandmother, who traveled with her daughter, son in law and 6 grandchildren to Port Philip on that journey, died a year after arriving. The Australian archives are great!
Should you be interested in contacting me, please feel free.
Best wishes,
Dar
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Hi there Zoshi,
I was most interested to read about your family being on the Lord Delaval. It's great that you have found out so much about them in the Aussie records.
My husband was actually the one who found those Hills on the NET and he followed them up as far as the arrival records in Australia. Do you have these pages of the ships passengers on arrival in Melbourne ? We do so let me know if you'd like them . They are copies of the original log.
We haven't really got any further with this possibility that it may have been our Hills. The extra "son" Charles makes it a bit less likely.
We do have other options as to how the father and son managed to get to NZ but can't really follow up on them either. I will keep trying.
Perhaps you may have a tip about following up on people after their arrival in Aust.?
Bye for now,
MAPS
PS by the way how did you come to know my name ?
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Dear Maps;
I was pleased to receive your response, thank you!!
As far as me finding your name, I forget where it was exactly, it may have been on the Borders site, or if not there, another one, possibly Ancestry? Can't recall, sorry!
It is kind of you to offer to share the arrival's list. I'm not sure if I've seen it or not. I saw your Hills on the 'outgoing list' from England but without searching through my copious files (which I must leave for now until I have some free time) I can't quite remember if I have the incoming documentation or not. Perhaps if you'd kindly send it to me I'd know! Those passenger lists have a way of piling up! I have many families who moved from one continent to another going back centuries.
The question of the Hill's extra child 'Charles' - I have found two extra children via passenger lists for my own Churcher family. It took a lot of doing but I eventually found the birth of one of them (in a county in England where five siblings were not born) and his death, aged 7 in Canada. I still have one more son unaccounted for, both birth and death. I'm beginning to wonder whether he was adopted - perhaps a child of a single mother who may have even been related. What I'm trying to say is, that an open mind may lead you to answers.
I'd love to provide some tips but again, I'll need some time to see what I can find and I'm certainly no expert. I believe I used a link to Australian archives - I'll see if I can find it. Besides writing to a very helpful librarian in Victoria (years ago), I've taken a look at newspapers and cemetery records. Not a lot but they did prove valuable.
I look forward to hearing from you again. Best wishes,
Zoshi
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Hi Zoshi,
Thanks for your answer there were a few hidden tips in it so thanks.
I'm going to attach the list. Many years ago my husband asked an Australian researcher to see what she could find. We received photo copied versions of the Micro fiches in the mail from her. I've digitalised them for you and hope you can work it all out.
I hope it's of some use to you.
Kind regards MAPS
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A few more pages to come. MAPS
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I think there's one more page. If you are missing some let me know. there should be nine including the letter from the researcher.
Cheers MAPS
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Hi Maps!
Thanks very much for going to all the trouble of digitizing so much information for me, I really appreciate it.
I was rather hoping that my detailed reply might prove helpful in some way and was pleased to see that you found some hidden tips.
In response to your invitation to let you know if any pages were missing - I found attached only three of the nine pages you'd indicated: page 1 of the Passenger List, (beginning with Adamson); the page beginning with K surnames and the informative letter from the Australian researcher.
It is all very interesting (I had not seen these originals after all) and would love to see the other six pages if you can manage it. I wonder if my own Churcher family was among those the researcher copied - I hope so. I'm looking forward to seeing your Hill family too. I had to smile when I read the researcher's comments about who Charles Hill might be - my own ideas seemed to echo hers!
The helpful Australian librarian would have copied the passenger list from the microfiche she consulted for information but their copier wasn't working at the time.
I assume you're familiar with the index of the outward bound passenger list from England. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I remember how excited I was when I found my own Churcher family on it!
If and when you have time, thanks in advance for any additional attachments.
Best wishes,
Zoshi
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Hi again MAPS;
Could you please check page 3b for me (the one that begins listing passengers with 'K' names). The top of the page is not visible and I wondered where these people embarked....
Sorry to trouble you but I like to glean as much information as possible to get the full 'picture'.
Whenever you get a moment, no hurry.
Thanks,
Zoshi
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Hi Zoshi,
It's no trouble, just a learning curve for me. I need the practice !
This is the only passenger list I have and it's from the Newcastle Courant. C:\Users\Gebruiker\Documents\1. HILL FAMILY HISTORY\Hill INFO\Passengers on the Lord Delaval.htm
When I sent the docs I thought I was sending 3 at a time sorry !
At the top of page 3a it says ; Port at which Passengers have contracted to land. If you look at page 1a you will see that Port Phillip has been written in that column.
As for the Keene couple, Minister and Wife, they were English.
I will now try Attaching the rest.
Sorry but I have been reading the rules and find that the documents have too many MBs to send on this site. But if you could send me a "Personal Message" with an e-mail address then there would be no problem at all.
Best wishes,
MAPS ( NL)
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Hi Maps;
Thanks for your reply and info. and offer to send me the rest of the pages. My email address is: darch@shaw.ca. After I sent the last message I reread all your posts and replies and realized that you'd mentioned the GENUKI link to the passenger list already. I'd forgotten, sorry! I have a little information re Australian research but will elaborate later.
I look forward to hearing from you. I have a good feeling about our connection, I feel it may turn up some surprises! Zoshi
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In 1853 Lord Delaval sailed from Berwick-upon-Tweed to London. In London it embarked passengers for Australia on or about Jan 1853. It sailed to Port Phillip Bay in Victoria arriving I think March 1853.
I have a passenger list as held by Victorian Public Records Office ref:YPRS947/P0000, Jan-Mar 1853 that lists three Hill's, an adult and two children. John 39 Boot maker, John jr 12, and Charles 11.
My ancestor John Coster age 19 from Chalgrove Oxfordshire was on the same ship.
A long time from your query but hope of some help. I have just found your inquiry following a Google search for the Lord Delaval.