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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: ThamesDitton on Monday 22 August 11 19:25 BST (UK)
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Another local history story.
William Speer believed born 1717 died 1805 (Gentleman's magazine) described as a senior clerk in the Treasury. Owned property in Fulham/Hammersmith. Married Katherine nee Wilson in 1759. She inherited property at Prospect Place, Westminster (later Old Queen St). That became their London home. She died 1780 & is buried at Thames Ditton. On the strength of his Prospect Park property he voted (Tory) in Westminster in St Margaret, estminster, and St John the Evangelist
In 1778 he began acquiring land in Thames Ditton, initially in Weston Green in the NW corner of the parish. There's a large amount of material at Surrey History Centre of which I'm aware.
For William Speer b. abt 1717
Q1: detailed dpob / dpod for William?
Q2: any fuller details on him esp. his work at the Treasury?
In about 1765 William x Katheriine had a son, also William. I know that they had at least three daughters, the third of which was Frances died 1861.
Q3: dates for offspring of William Speer x Katherine?
Q4: definitive address for the property they lived in as their country home in Weston Greem, Thames Ditton? (Not the many farms and other houses William bought to let out). Its not totally clear when William the younger b abt 1760 died: ancestry records give buried Thames Ditton St Nicholas 19 April 1844 in his 79th year curate Henry S Pollard, but Surrey History Centre's Speer papers give May 1846 as the date of his decease in connection with the will, and his descendant in the 1960s in private correspondence with a local historian gave 1845). I am particularly interested in William the younger. He bought the Lordship of the Manor of Weston from the Crown Estate in 1801 (I have photos of the full deeds) and ruthlessly added to the Speer land portfolio here and in Esher and Epsom, winding up with 660 acres - almost a quarter - of the parish of Thames Ditton. His descendants maintain that he sired 19 children but many died in childhood. I don't yet have the name of his wife nor the marriage details, but I know that she died before 1841. His eldest surviving son was Wilfred b. 1800, on whom I have some detail (studied at Trinity Cambridge, ordained around 1831, he was suspended from his position as incumbent of Thames Ditton for persistent drunkenness). Another son was Capt Wilhelm Speer of the 71st Highlanders died 1857. Daughters included Maria and Cecilia or Cecelia. Cecilia married Hannibal Sandys 05/12/1825
William the younger also gave his town address as Park Prospect Westminster (and also voted Tory), while his address in Weston Green was probably either (or both of) Weston Grove or Weston Grange. His occupation (if other than landowner and property speculator) is unclear.
for William Speer b. abt 1765:
Q5: definitive dpob / dod?
Q6: marriage and spouse?
Q7: occupation ? (there may be clues in parliamentary records of the secret vote, where he is mentioned in passing: I wonder if he followed his father into the Treasury?). For one year he was Sherriff of Surrey.
Q8: definitive list of children dob/dod?
Anything this wonderful forum can hunt down would be really useful. Thanks.
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Have you obtained a copy of this will from the National Archives?
Will of William Speer of Thames Ditton , Surrey, Prerogative Court of Canterbury
Date 04 June 1844
Catalogue reference PROB 11/2000
Dawn
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There's a William Speer, bachelor, late of Thames Ditton who died 10 January 1834 at Park Prospect St Margarets. He didn't leave a will but letters of administration were granted to Wilfred Dakin Speer, brother and next of kin, 12 June 1866.
Dawn
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There's a William Speer, bachelor, late of Thames Ditton who died 10 January 1834 at Park Prospect St Margarets. He didn't leave a will but letters of administration were granted to Wilfred Dakin Speer, brother and next of kin, 12 June 1866.
Dawn
Interesting. Wilfred Dakin Speer is the son of Rev Wilfred Speer, who in turn is the son of William Speer the younger b. abt 1765 (oops - I've just noticed I put 1860 at one point in the first post - I'll correct, sorry). So this William if the brother of Wilfred Dakin Speer would be the second son of Rev Wilfred x Sarah, his wife. However, he is supposed to have been buried at Brookwood cemetery Woking in 1868 according to the gravestone of Rev Wilfred and some other family members. And it doesn't look quite right.
Census 1851 in TD gives
Wilfred Speer Incumbent
Sarah wife aged 45
Wilfred son age 4 // this doesn't look quite right either!
Maria Knight and Ann Naldrett, servants
So William d. 1834 is an odd one.
Capt Wilfred Dakin Speer was shot & killed 'accidentally' by a US guard on board the paddle steamer Octavia up the Missouri on 8 June 1867. The US military papers on that incident are available in our library.
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Got the first name of William Speer the younger's wife: Mary (from index of documents in Surrey History Centre ref 3400/3/3-4 Unit Date 8 Apr 1831. NO further details of her yet.
I'm off to the SHC tomorrow and I think there are details of William Speer's a/m will in the Speer papers held there.
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1851 says Wilfred is 17 not 4.
Jennifer
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Wilfred Dakin Speer will was proved firstly by Edward Frederick Sandys 13 The Grove Boltons West Brompton Middx 20/9/1867
Secondly 5/11/1867 by Courtanay Forbes Terry esq. of Esher Lt.60th Rifles.
Jennifer
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William Speer born 13/10/1835 bapt. 12/11/1835 at TD
Parents Wilfred & Sarah Incumbent TD
1861 census West End Lodge TD
Sarah Speer wid. 50 Landed Prop. born London
William 25 Fund holder TD
Jennifer
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Wilhelm Speer 46 Late Capt. 71st Reg & Fund holder born NK
1851 census London Road Bexley Kent
Died Dartford Kent 1857
P.O.Directory 1851 Kent Wilhelm Speer West Cottage Kent.
Jennifer
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Good stuff, thanks Jennifer.
Wilhelm is buried in a Speer grave in Woking Brookwood cemetery .
Courtenay Forbes Terry must be the brother of the Miss Terry to whom Capt. Wilfred Dakin Speer was engaged at the time of his death (she is said by a Speer descendant not to have returned the family jewels which he gave her!)
Edward Frederick Sandys was the younger brother of Hannibal Sandys (the third Hannibal in a line of Sandys originating in Cornwall), sons of Hannibal (the second) x Cecilia Speer. dob December 21, 1832, churchwarden at St Nicholas TD for 22 years, died Nov 15 1910.
I have a fair bit on these Sandys, probably the subject of a future enquiry here to tidy up ends (but not yet!). They feature because of the Speer connection: when William Speer the younger's grandson Wilfred Dakin Speer was killed in 1867 there was no direct tail male so the Speer estates passed to William the younger's eldest surviving daughter Maria Speer, died 1871 aged 83; thence to her nephew Hannibal (the third). Hannibal then took the name of Speer by royal warrant to comply with the terms of William's will (William showed all the signs of a domineering 'control freak'). He thereby became Lord of the manor of Weston
For the immediate present I'm particularly interested in filling out details of William Speer the younger born abt 1765 x Mary (maiden name not yet known) and tidying up their 19 children many of whom did not survive childhood. And especially, clues to that William's occupation other than landowner, and to his activities other than those given above, between 1800 - 1835. Did he follow his father into the Treasury?
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Because there are loads of Speers dotted around, and this particular family seems to have been particularly complicated, the subject has to some extent defeated earlier local historians even though there are many Speer family papers available. For example, nobody knows for sure in which house here William d 1805 and William d 1844 actually lived - when they weren't in Westminster or Fulham. The latter is listed in a directory as at Weston Grove. There is no Weston Grove today, but an ordnance survey map has that name on the site of a grade II listed house known since as The Newlands. Another possibility is a house now known as Weston Grange. There is also a mention of Weston Lodge in NA papers, and some here think that this might be a corruption of West End Lodge (where Wilfred Speer lived - now known as 'the Old Manor House' though by 'Old' is certainly meant 'former' rather than ancient). But those papers put Weston Lodge firmly in Weston (Green) and not in TD village where West End Lodge was/is....
I have great faith in the ability of this forum to crack the nut - you've done some amazing work on two or three other subjects and for my part I can contribute some of these local historical details to add to the pile of useful information and histories on rootschat.
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On William Speer the younger b abt 1765, snippets:
- JP
Votes in Westminster Elections 1818
MF Burdett ( a reformer!) WILLIAM SPEER, St Margaret, Westminster, and St John the Evangelist
But normally like his father a Tory:
The Standard (London, England), Monday, September 03, 1838; Issue 4431
Grand Conservative Dinner - Kingston on Thames
The Mayor of this borough entertained a large party of the neighbouring magistrates and gentry to a sumptuous dinner at the Griffin Inn, on Friday. Amongst the guests were ...... Mr. W Speer...... On the Duke of Wellington's health being proposed, the most enthusiastic feelings were demonstrated
Parliamentary records (tantalising!):
1813:
OCCASIONAL PAYMENTS:
Home Secret Service .
10,000. 0. 0
Special Service and Royal Bounty
Colonel Herbert Taylor ...
Henry Norton Willis, Esq.
William Speer, Esq.
1815
William Speer, Esq. to pay Bills drawn by the Duke of Wellington, towards the purchase of a House at Paris, for the residence of His Majesty's Ambassador
LONDON GAZETTE, Saturday, Nov. 15 1817. William Speer of Thames Ditton nominated for Sheriff (as one of three in Surrey) by the Lords of the Council at the Exchequer, and:
appointed as Sheriff for Surrey by the Prince Regent for the year 1819 (The Times, Friday, Feb 12, 1819)
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Concerning Rev. Wilfred Speer b. abt 1800:
During his ecclesiastical trial in 1841 (on which I'm writing for our local magazine) a distinguished witness mentioned that Wilfred had recently lost 'a mother, a sister and a child' (possible mitigating factors in his alcoholism).
- Mother was Mary, wife of William Speer (maiden name, date of death?)
- sister was? (Not Maria or Cecilia who survived him)
- child was?
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Right: got confirmation of William b. abt 1765's day job. Like his father, he was a civil servant in the Treasury. A well-researched piece deploring undeserved government pensions in the Supplement to The Spectator Nov 18, 1837 sourced to government official accounts, with several interesting tables, records him as Chief Clerk and Auditor of Treasury Accounts, Salary £1,700 pension £1,700. Compares with George Harrison, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury and Auditor of Treasury Accounts whose salary was £8,500 and pension £2,200.
sourced by the Spectator to Finance Accounts, No.68
Using that,
'Treasurers and Commissioners of the Treasury 1660—1870', Office-Holders in Modern Britain: Volume 1: Treasury Officials 1660-1870 (1972), pp. 16-25. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=16739 Date accessed: 24 August 2011
"Chief Clerks c. 1689-1856
This grade dates from at least 1685. The identity of the Chief Clerks cannot be ascertained until 1689 when they were five in number. In about 1697 they were reduced to four. Until 1805 the Chief Clerks ranked after the Joint Secretaries and in addition to their own particular responsibilities acted in a general advisory capacity to the Board. In 1805 they were displaced from their position as the senior members of the permanent staff by the Assistant Secretary. At the same time they were given specific responsibilities for the divisions of business, one being assigned to each of the first two divisions, one to the third and fourth and one to the fifth and sixth.....Until 1782 the Chief Clerks received their remuneration in the form of equal shares in a third part of the office fees. In that year they were accorded fixed salaries of £800. This sum was raised to £1080 in 1798 and in 1801 a progressive scale was introduced rising after fifteen years to £1200 and after twenty years to £1400. In 1821 a fixed salary of £1200 was established for succeeding holders of the offices. This was reduced to £1000 in 1834."
List of appointments:
...1808 17 May Speer, W.
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And William (1765?-1844)'s father William Speer (1717-1805) also had a pension from HM Treasury:
The Morning Post and Gazetteer, Friday, July 17, 1801; Issue 10261
Account presented to the House of Commons, of all subsisting Pensions, granted by the Crown, during pleasure, or otherwise, and payable at the Exchequer. 29 June 1801.
- William Speer pension of £200 formerly paid at the Treasury
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Fellow of the Royal Society (from their lists):
William Speer 28/05/1812 c 1764 – 11 April 1844 HM Treasury
and one of the Treasury auditors for the Babbage Engine expenditure:
http://sites.google.com/site/babbagedifferenceengine/analysisofexpenditureondifferenceenginen
last visited 24/08/11
Analysis of the Costs of and Government Expenditure on Babbage's 1st Difference Engine
By CJ.D. Roberts M.A.
".....After the Engine had been formally declared public property (at a meeting between the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Henry Goulburn and Lord Ashiey on 24 February 1830, but not confirmed by a minute of the Board of the Treasury till 24th December that year) the Treasury adopted a system of having the accounts formally reviewed by their own auditors, Messrs William Speer and Stamp Brooksbank. These two appear in the story told in the surviving Mss as a pair of veritable bureaucratic 'Rosencrantz and Guildensterns'. They seemed to have quibbled every penny spent by Babbage on the Engine, insisting on stamped and signed receipts etc.. They certainly did not indulge in any form of financial planning or management, tasks one might expect of professional auditors today. ..... It can be seen from Speer and Brooksbank's reports, which still exist today in the Public Record Office at Kew...."
But still no joy on the basic dates/names of William b abt 1765, his marriage to Mary surname n/k, her death, and the dobs and dods of their 19 children.
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I'm finding it difficult to get any proper hits on these Speers e.g. ancestry. Nothing on the maiden name or marriage of Mary ..... to William Speer (1764-1844). The marriage must have taken place about 1785-1798, given that William was born 1764 (according to the Royal Society's membership records) and that their eldest surviving son Wilfred was born abt. 1800-1801 and one has to leave room for a deceased son William (if not others) to be born before before him.
As to William's son Wilfred: there is an item datelined:
Cambridge, Aug. 30 .
The Bury and Norwich Post: Or, Suffolk and Norfolk Telegraph, Essex, Cambridge, & Ely Intelligencer (Bury Saint Edmunds, England), Wednesday, September 01, 1830; Issue 2514
On Thursday last, at St. Margarets Westminster, the Rev Wilfred Speer, M.A. of Trinity college, to Miss Speer, of Park-street
That would put the date of Wilfred x Sarah at 26 August 1830 and the parish as St Margarets. Park Street Westminster today is in Mayfair while the Speers' Westminster House was at Park Prospect, which became Old Queen Street Westminster (very close to the Treasury). It seems highly likely that Wilfred's wife Sarah was a cousin. But I can't find any hits in online registers.
From a divorce case (Kinnaird) that went to the House of Lords, where Wilfred appeared as a witness in his official capacity, I now know that in July 1831 he was Officiating Minister at the Parish of Saint Margaret's, Westminster