RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Elstead1861 on Monday 12 September 11 11:29 BST (UK)
-
Please can someone help me trace the dates of death of William BURTON and Susan JENNER who married in the registration district of Orange NSW in 1878.
They had three daughters: Ada (1879), Dora (1881) and Ellen (1884)
There are Orange registration records for the death of a 'Susan Burton' in 1884 and a 'William Burton' in 1891. I just wondered if they were the same two who married in 1878?
If there are any cemetery records showing them buried together it might be a clue.
Thanks :)
-
Hi there,
Do you have copies (or transcriptions of) any of these NSW BDM documents please?
Have you tried TROVE digitised newspapers at this link
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
Cheers, JM
-
There are not Memorial Inscriptions at ORANGE CEMETERY for your people.
This does not mean they are not buried there, merely ,they do not have headstones to give further clues.
Sue
-
Hi there,
Have you any knowledge about the death in 1882 that was registered for the Dubbo district for a Sarah BURTON, with parents given names indexed as William and Susan .... NSW BDM online ref #6012.
Cheers, JM
-
Thank you to everyone for your replies.
Unfortunately, I haven't got the certificates as I've only just started to look into this.
I saw on "another website" that someone has listed Susan's date of death as 27 March 1884, seven days after the birth of her daughter Ellen.
There are not Memorial Inscriptions at ORANGE CEMETERY for your people.
Thanks for letting me know, Sue.
Have you any knowledge about the death in 1882 that was registered for the Dubbo district for a Sarah BURTON, with parents given names indexed as William and Susan .... NSW BDM online ref #6012.
I hadn't seen that!. I couldn't find the corresponding birth on NSW BMD. Either it was a child of the same family that died at birth or there is another William and Susan Burton in the area. That will complicate matters. :-\
-
Deleted - wrong information! :-[
-
JAMES and PHILADELPHIA JENNER had a number of children in the 1840's and 1850's and the district for the birth of at least one is ORANGE.
SUSAN"S birth does not appear on the index.
Her death
REG 12835 IN 1884 BURTON SUSAN
Father JAMES
Mother PHILIDEPHIA
ORANGE
The probable death registration for her mother was at ORANGE
REG 11176 In 1883 JENNER PHILADELPHIA
Father THOMAS
Mother SARAH
ORANGE
This information only suggests there was a JENNER family link to the ORANGE district. Some details match your people.
Certificate purchase will be the way to confirm things.
Sue
-
Hi there,
May I suggest that at least one NSW BDM document (a transcript will be fine) that could solve the mystery. The one I am thinking of would be the d.c. for the Susan BURTON that you mention. EDIT TO ADD, and Sue has kindly given you the reference details from the index.
The d.c. gives you the spouse name and date/place of the marriage of the deceased, and the names and ages of the living children of the deceased and notes any children who were already deceased. It also gives you the names of the parents of the deceased, and the cemetery for the burial of the deceased. There's other pieces of information also. Of course the information on a d.c. is only as reliable as the informant's own knowledge, but it seems to me that if that d.c. for 1884 is for your lass, then the informant was most likely her husband.
Here's the RChat link about Transcript Agents .... transcripts are cheaper and can arrive into your email inbox and contain all the information on the "real deal" certificate.
Transcription Agents
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html
Cheers, JM
-
May I speculate please...
At the NSW SRO online Index for Squatters and Graziers there's :
1845, J. Jenner with TWO stations, both in the Bathurst - Wellington district .... both associated with a William Henry Wright. These properties named as Wolandra and Gogodneygeery. There is NO copy service associated with that index at present, so someone would need to attend the SRO to view and copytranscribe that part of their film. Perhaps J Jenner was managing the properties for William Henry Wright, however, the contents of that file should provide those answers.
So then I looked at the NSW SRO index for LAND I found mention of a William Henry WRIGHT as a Lieutenant, 1838-9.
Next I found a William Henry WRIGHT's appointment as a Magistrate and the Commissioner for Lands in the Wellington district
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12414802 SMH 7 June 1843
This is all speculative on my part, and somewhat tenuous at the moment, and may well have no bearing on your Susan Jenner. The NSW SRO index info is simply a possible clue to be followed up once you have validated your research for her.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/
Cheers, JM
-
What has happened to the rest of this thread? I had a message to say it had been 'split'. The title now only mentions William BURTON but the first post still asks about Susan JENNER as well? ??? ??? ???
Quite a co-incidence that there appears to be another Philadelphia JENNER having children with father Isaac JENNER at around the same time as James JENNER and his Philadelphia (occasionally shown as Philidephia on indexes). The Isaac couple seem to be in Armidale for some of the births.
Judith
-
I am also wondering the very same question as Judith....
Cheers Judith, from a very confused JM
-
I am wondering whether JAMES and ISAAC are the same person???
The spacing of the births to PHILADELPHIA look probable and there are no 2 the same year.
I can only locate one death for a woman of the name on the indexes.
They arrived in Australia in 1853 per Meteor for Sydney / Newcastle
JENNER Philia Aged 23
JENNER Isaac Aged 26
Reel 2136, [4/4791]; Reel 2465, [4/4934]
Sue
-
Well, perhaps ELSTEAD1861 will be able to enlighten us as to what has happened . He/she is sure to be online again soon ;D
I do not think any postings are missing, are they?
??? ::)
Sue
-
Thanks again for your continued support. I am very grateful for the ideas that you have suggested.
May I speculate please...
Please do, JM! I have only just started looking at the Burton-Jenner family and I hadn't heard of the NSW SRO online Index before you suggested it.
They arrived in Australia in 1853 per Meteor for Sydney / Newcastle
JENNER Philia Aged 23
JENNER Isaac Aged 26
Reel 2136, [4/4791]; Reel 2465, [4/4934]
I also found James (30) and Philadelphia (27) Jenner arriving with two daughters aboard the Earl Grey on 24th June 1841. So they are about 15 years older than Isaac and Philia Jenner. Not sure if this helps.
What has happened to the rest of this thread? I had a message to say it had been 'split'. The title now only mentions William BURTON but the first post still asks about Susan JENNER as well?
(I'm not sure why the thread title has been altered. I put in both surnames to trigger any subject line searches on BURTON or JENNER. Is that incorrect protocol?)
Unfortunately, according to the NSW BMD index, the death certificate for William Burton doesn't have his parents listed. I guess I might have to speculate and buy the certificate to see if the informant is one of his three daughters.
I'm off to look at the newspapers as JM suggested :)
-
(I'm not sure why the thread title has been altered. I put in both surnames to trigger any subject line searches on BURTON or JENNER. Is that incorrect protocol?)
Elstead, like you, I am just an RChatter, just been a member for a while longer than you, but not as long as many others, so I am not aware of any protocol that you may have, even inadvertently, infringed, and I am confused as to what if anything was SPLIT off, or why there was an alteration to you heading...
Let's just assume there was some kind of "hiccup" in cyberspace and that we all paused, held our breath and got rid of the "hiccups" ... I feel sure that if there was something seriously wrong, the Moderators would handle it differently.
May you find lots of interesting things on the many indexes at the NSW SRO ... its fantastic ... well that's what I think...
Cheers, JM
-
The probable death registration for her mother was at ORANGE
REG 11176 In 1883 JENNER PHILADELPHIA
Father THOMAS
Mother SARAH
ORANGE
Thanks, Sue. Just following up on that, I am guessing that her parents were Thomas Harvey and Sarah Shoesmith. Philidelphia was baptised at Mountfield, Sussex, England on 5th November 1915. She married James Jenner at Mountfield on 8th October 1831. (All information from IGI - I haven't seen the actual registers)
-
I confirm that in 1878 William Burton was enrolled in the electorate of ORANGE, qualification to enrol "residence" and situate "near Orange"
And on same roll, three by the surname Jenner ...
William, residence : King's Plains
James, Junior, residence : Byng
James, Senior, household : byng
Cheers, JM
-
I confirm that in 1878 William Burton was enrolled in the electorate of ORANGE, qualification to enrol "residence" and situate "near Orange"
And on same roll, three by the surname Jenner ...
William, residence : King's Plains
James, Junior, residence : Byng
James, Senior, household : byng
Cheers, JM
Thanks for that, JM. Please may I ask for the link to that roll (was it on Trove)?
I found the following entry on the NSW Assitant Immigrant Register 1841
James Jenner
Arrived by the Ship Earl Grey
A Native of Mountfield Sussex, son of William, a sawyer, dead & Susanah Selmes in this Colony
Age on embarkation 30 years, 2nd May 1841
William Gennes (sic) married Susanna Selmes on 20 Oct 1800 in East Sussex, England (Source: IGI)
I also found a James Jenner in the NSW BMD index
8505/1878 JENNER JAMES AGE 72 YEARS DIED ORANGE ORANGE
Might be the same person
-
I have copy of various rolls in my offline resources. The NSW State Library may also have copies of electoral rolls, and would be able to validate the information I have provided..
http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/
Cheers, JM
-
It had run through my mind that perhaps Isaac and James are the same person.
I need to list the births to get them straight in my own mind! ::)
JENNER Births:
V18531605 56/1853 Ann JENNER, parents: JAMES, PHILADELPHIA
V18541876 42A/1854 James JENNER, parents: ISAAC, PHILIA
V18551949 42A/1855 Anne S JENNER, parents: ISAAC, PHILADELPHIA
4119/1857 Eliza JENNER, parents: ISAAC, PHILADELPHIA, reg ARMIDALE
4271/1858 Isaac JENNER, parents ISAAC, PHILADELPHIA, reg at ARMIDALE
10505/1859 George JENNER, parents: JAMES, PHILIDELPHIA, reg ORANGE
4392/1860 Daniel JENNER, parents: ISAAC, PHILADELPHIA, reg ARMIDALE
4495/1863 Edward T JENNER ,parents: ISAAC, PHILADELPHIA, reg ARMIDALE
And, perhaps, Sarah perhaps 1862
And then these two ???
4763/1864 Caroline JENNER, parents: ISAAC, PHILLIS, reg ARMIDALE
4800/1866 Barbara JENNER, parents: ISAAC, PHILLIS, reg ARMIDALE, Died 1867, reg Armidale
There are deaths for
Isaac (1921, Granville) and
Daniel (1936, Manilla) JENNER - both with parent names given as Isaac and Phyllis, and also for
James JENNER (1934, Granville) , parents given as Isaac and Phillip (!)
Judith
-
Hi all, especially Judith, I understand, I am currently trying to sort out some of the entries on the familysearch (dot) org's new site... They have both Isacc and James
EG for Isaac, there's this lass which seems to match up with Anne S Jenner on your list (NSW BDM index ?)
Anne Sarah Jenner, Female, Baptism/Christening 04 Nov 1855 at ST. PETER at Armidale, birth03 Oct 1855 Father Isaac Jenner, Mother Philadelphia
I am using the options : Jenner, Australia 1840 - 1880 and NOT looking at any submitted trees. I think I am looking at the equivalent of the former IGI extracted ....
If I have time tomorrow I will try to help further, but knowing me, I will only become more confused :-[
Cheers, JM
-
There is a marriage for an Eliza JENNER (1882, Tenterfield) to James HENDRY and a death, (1929 Tamworth) for an Eliza HENDRY, parents Isaac and Phyllis.
Marriage for a Caroline JENNER (1888, Uralla) to Philip BAKER and a corresponding death for a Caroline BAKER, (Manilla 1899), parents Isaac and Phyllis.
However George JENNER's death (1932, Millthorpe) lists parents as James and Philadelphia. ::)
Austcemindex has photos of JENNER graves at Manilla - Mary Jane wife of Isaac (the son, I think) is there and Caroline BAKER. Others are later.
http://www.austcemindex.com/
Judith
-
Aboard the Meteor 1853
Isaac JENNER 26, farm labourer,
native place: Ditchling, Sussex;
parents: John and Lydia, mother dead, father living Chailey?, Sussex
Philia JENNER, 23, farm labourer,
native place: Lewes, Sussex
parents: James and Eliza WICKS, mother dead, father living Lewes.
Both C of E, Isaac can read, Philia can read and write; they have no relatives in the colony and 2pounds was paid to the Immigration Board
JENNER brothers arrive in 1854 aboard the Tantivy. (Same parents and native place as Isaac, father now residing Ditchland?, Sussex). They state that their relative in the colony is a brother Isaac, residing New England.
Edward JENNER 19, shepherd
Daniel JENNER 27, ag lab,
This looks like Isaac's marriage (freebmd), Sep qr 1852
Isaac JENNER, reg Lewes Vol 2b p 253
and on the same page:
Elizabeth WICKS
Do we already have his death? This would appear to be it:
1894 #13397 (reg Uralla, NSW)
Isaac JENNER
Father's Name: John
Judith
-
It had run through my mind that perhaps Isaac and James are the same person.
Thanks for going through this with majm. It seems like the conclusion is that James and Isaac are two different people.
I'm pretty hopeful that Susan is James Jenner and Philadelphia Harvey's daughter. Looks like I'll need to dig deeper to find Susan's year and place of birth though. Neither of the parents could read or write though so the surname spelling could vary.
Perhaps I'll have to invest in the marriage cert. transcription to move forward with William Burton.
Thanks again to all.
-
And on same roll, three by the surname Jenner ...
William, residence : King's Plains
James, Junior, residence : Byng
James, Senior, household : byng
Bathhurst Free Press
28-Jul-1855 p1
NOTICE
The undersigned has found a red working bullock, JG off rump, which he believes to be his, and which was lost several years since. Whoever can show a stronger claim to the said bullock, can have him by applyingto
James Jenner, Guyong
Bathhurst Free Press
6-Sep-1862 p4
IMPOUNDINGS
BLAYNEY [On the 19th August] from the wheat paddock of W. Jenner, Dungon Creek, damages 10s:
Dark iron-grey horse, blotch brand near shoulder...
-
Hi All,
Double shuffled, engaged low gear .... heading out to look for both James JENNER and Isaac JENNER to support the notion they are two individuals. Along the way I think I am helping .... I hope so ... at least these should help with the cutting from the Bathurst papers...
NSW ER 1870 ORANGE
JENNER, William, residence, King’s Plains
JENNER, James, household, King’s Plains
NSW ER 1870 NEW ENGLAND
JENNERS, Isaac, residence, Balala
Yes, the chap at New England has been listed on the roll as Jenners ... I have triple checked, there is “s”.
NSW ER 1878 ORANGE
JENNER, James, junior, residence, Byng
JENNER, William, residence, King’s Plain
JENNER, James, senior, household, Byng
NSW ER 1878 NEW ENGLAND
JENNER, Isaac, freehold, Mail Station
So it seems likely that there are TWO adults named James Jenner, at Byng, and ONE named Isaac Jenner up near Armidale (and of course there’s also a William Jenner,).
Re the two adults at Byng, (oops, I add, I am speculating yet again ::) ) most likely they are related to each other, perhaps father and son or maybe Uncle and nephew.
Cheers, JM
-
From Walter Samson & Co., New South Wales National Directory 1867 - 1868
New England and Armidale
I JENNER, Balala
Orange and Lucknow
W JENNER, Guyong
Cheers, JM
-
Hi there,
From the good work of Judith, I follow up with
V18541876 42A/1854 James JENNER, parents: ISAAC, PHILIA (Judith) This would be James Jenner born 27 June 1854, christening 28 Jan 1855 at St Peter, Armidale to Isaac and Philis Jenner (familysearch online index)
V18551949 42A/1855 Anne S JENNER, parents: ISAAC, PHILADELPHIA (Judith)
This would be Anne Sarah Jenner, born 4 Oct 1855, christening 4 Nov 1855 at St Peter, Armidale to Isaac and Philadelphia Jenner. (familysearch online index)
I have looked but have not been able to find any further confirming information about the others, sorry.
BUT, I wonder who were the parents for this wee babe ...
Handford Jenner, age 0 d o d 25 Feb 1855, burial place “Campas Downs” buried 26 Feb 1855. (family search index) which would be NSW BDM index V1855 line 165, Vol 43A
By the way, Vol 43A should be C of E as per NSWSRO’s Short Guide 4 – Attorney General and Justice : Registers of births, deaths and marriages “....Vols. 1 – 44 Church of England ....”
And, to further confuse, that same year, in that same volume 43A, line 967 there’s likely a burial for William Jenner, age 57.
I think there’s a need to obtain some transcripts of the various certificates. But as to which would provide the most number of clues .... well, that will call for some more pondering, but usually the civil registrations (those without the “V” reference) should give greater depth and hopefully give a nee name for some of these mothers ..
I think I would be much less confused, if the NSW BDM had separated their ECR online indexes into separate indexes for baptisms, and for burials and for weddings, and that they had included their district codes on those baptisms and burials (NSW BDM already includes it on the ECR weddings) AND in particular I really really wish that NSW BDM had not included any ECR in their indexes for the civil registrations for births, deaths, marriages... ::) Sorry everyone, ::) if I pull thinking cap down any further it will be covering my eyes ...
Cheers, JM
-
Good finds JM.
I am now 50/50 whether there are two men Isaac and James or just the one using the different forenames. Very few records available for a james while there is lots for isaac.
I would think getting the marriage cert for the daughter Susan may be the best one to start with.
Judith
-
There is this chap - from Australian Convict Transportation Registers – Other Fleets & Ships, 1826-1828. Unforutantely no info is recorded next to his name on the image. :(
James JENNER
Vessel: Marquis of Huntley
Convicted Date: 2 Jan 1826, Voyage Date: 10 May 1826
Colony: New South Wales
Place of Conviction: Kent, England
This chap is on a muster in 1837 with age given as 27 so born abt 1800.
and this one (New South Wales and Tasmania, Australia Convict Musters, dated 1837_
James JENNER
Arrival Date: 1834, New South Wales
Vessel: Henry Tanner
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1786
This one received a pardon dated 1846-1849, listed as James Smith JENNER
Judith
-
Yes, a transcript of the 1878 m.c. would be a good starting point, my fingers are crossed that NSW BDM records show that particular m.c. it has been reconciled fully, and thus include ALL the vital family history info about the bride, and her parentage.
I agree too that there's the possibility that James and Isaac could well be one and the same *** .... it was permitted to be enrolled at any location, eg as a leaseholder or freeholder of land in two or more locations... I think it was known as "plurality of enrollments", it defaults back to the concept of property qualifications for electors. (no females on these pre federation NSW rolls). If only the maiden name/s for Mrs Philadelphia/Philis/Philia Jenner etc were to be found on an online NSW index. ::)
*** afterall, there's also a bp for a William Jenner, born 8 Oct 1842, bp 13 Nov 1842 at St Peter, Campbelltown NSW (not to be confused with St Peter, Armidale NSW) with parents recorded as James and Philadelphia Jenner (familysearchorg) which hopefully would be NSW BDM Vol 26A and line 1249 of 1842
Red post ... Oh Judith, not more James Jenner chaps, the one receiving a pardon well it should be findable in NSW SRO, and there should be a physical description on that pardon ...
Cheers, JM
-
It had run through my mind that perhaps Isaac and James are the same person.
I need to list the births to get them straight in my own mind! ::)
JENNER Births:
V18531605 56/1853 Ann JENNER, parents: JAMES, PHILADELPHIA
V18541876 42A/1854 James JENNER, parents: ISAAC, PHILIA
V18551949 42A/1855 Anne S JENNER, parents: ISAAC, PHILADELPHIA
4119/1857 Eliza JENNER, parents: ISAAC, PHILADELPHIA, reg ARMIDALE
4271/1858 Isaac JENNER, parents ISAAC, PHILADELPHIA, reg at ARMIDALE
10505/1859 George JENNER, parents: JAMES, PHILIDELPHIA, reg ORANGE
4392/1860 Daniel JENNER, parents: ISAAC, PHILADELPHIA, reg ARMIDALE
4495/1863 Edward T JENNER ,parents: ISAAC, PHILADELPHIA, reg ARMIDALE
And, perhaps, Sarah perhaps 1862
And then these two ???
4763/1864 Caroline JENNER, parents: ISAAC, PHILLIS, reg ARMIDALE
4800/1866 Barbara JENNER, parents: ISAAC, PHILLIS, reg ARMIDALE, Died 1867, reg Armidale
AND another birth:
Christening:
JENNA CAROLINE 1851 #V185136 56
Parents: JAMES & PHILADELPHIA
Parish: Bathurst; Hill End, Wesleyan Methodist
This birth is before Isaac & Philia arrived in 1853.
-
There is this chap - from Australian Convict Transportation Registers – Other Fleets & Ships, 1826-1828. Unforutantely no info is recorded next to his name on the image. :(
James JENNER
Vessel: Marquis of Huntley
Convicted Date: 2 Jan 1826, Voyage Date: 10 May 1826
Colony: New South Wales
Place of Conviction: Kent, England
This chap is on a muster in 1837 with age given as 27 so born abt 1800.
This James JENNER died in 1841:
JENNER James - Marquis of Huntley (1) - 1841 TOL Holder - Police Office - Died while under sentence 1841.
-
However George JENNER's death (1932, Millthorpe) lists parents as James and Philadelphia. #21 JUDITH
GEORGE JENNER at Millthorpe Cem with wife EVA ELIZABETH and son HERBERT.
Per #11
Still only one PHILADELPHIA JENNER death located.
Sue
-
This James JENNER died in 1841:
JENNER James - Marquis of Huntley (1) - 1841 TOL Holder - Police Office - Died while under sentence 1841.
Agh .... and his date of burial 19/01/1841 as per NSW SRO Convict Death Index which also give District/Parish: Police office Metro.
I speculate .... could William Jenner born 1842 at Campbelltown and Caroline Jenner born 1851 at Hill End be siblings, perhaps children of the chap b 1786 ....
Cheers, JM
-
From Sands NSW Country Alpha Directory 1903 .... these are all JENNER entries found in that directory
E, butcher, Lismore
George W, Coach and carriage trimmer, Wickham
S.M., cordial manufacturer, Campbelltown
Mrs W, General Store, Peak Kill
Sands NSW Country Alpha but for 1905
Same as for 1903, with ONE exception .... Mrs W is not listed .... ;)
Same Dir but for 1909
E, butcher, North Lismore,
Geo W, Coach and carriage trimmer, Wickham
H, General Store, Wyong
Herbert, postmaster, Taragla
S.M. cordial maker, Campbelltown
And ditto but 1914
Mrs A, nurse, Lismore
E.D, Manager, Lismore Butchering Co Ltd, Lismore
Geo W, Coach & carriage trimmer, Wickham
S.M., produce merchant, Campbelltown
Alas, no Philadelphia ...
Cheers, JM
-
There is also another Christening in 1845, can't see it posted, apologies if I missed it.
JENNER John - Christening 1845
Father: James
Mother: Philadelphia
Ref Number: V184574 55
Parish: Bathurst; Hill End, Wesleyan Methodist
-
This looks like Isaac's marriage (freebmd), Sep qr 1852
Isaac JENNER, reg Lewes Vol 2b p 253
and on the same page:
Elizabeth WICKS JUDITH #22
This maybe the death in QLD of EDWARD
IN 1921 REG C114 Edward ThomasJenner
Father Isaac Jenner
Mother Phyllis Wicks
Sue
-
Going through some booklets on the Orange district I found:
James JENNER married Philadelphia HARVEY.
Son William Jenner married Bridget HIGGINS.
Daughter Mary Ann Jenner married Michael Joseph MULLINS.
I have to go out atm but I will keep digging later to see if I can find anything else.
-
Hooray - then there were definitely two Philadelphias and a James separate from Isaac as the birth found by Merlin is 8 years before the arrival of Isaac and his 'Philia' on the Meteor in 1853.
Judith
-
Judith, I didn't get a red warning ???
Did you see my post that went up at the same time.
-
I found the following entry on the NSW Assitant Immigrant Register 1841
James Jenner
Arrived by the Ship Earl Grey
A Native of Mountfield Sussex, son of William, a sawyer, dead & Susanah Selmes in this Colony
Age on embarkation 30 years, 2nd May 1841
William Gennes (sic) married Susanna Selmes on 20 Oct 1800 in East Sussex, England (Source: IGI)
I also found a James Jenner in the NSW BMD index
8505/1878 JENNER JAMES AGE 72 YEARS DIED ORANGE ORANGE
Might be the same person
ELSTEAD, you have found the arrival of the elusive James and Philadelphia !
NSW SRO has imaged that passenger list
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/ and click on the "Try It Now" red button ... and scroll down to Earl Grey in May 1841
James Jenner, 30, a Sawyer, Protestant, no R/W, from Sussex,
Philadelphia, 37 (could be 27), a Farm Servant, Protestant, no R/W from Sussex
Sarah 9, daughter, Sussex
Charlotte 1 1/2 daughter Sussex
Cheers, JM
-
What a good find!
Now - this info from Bounty Immigration records, not sure if all are related as some of the info is a bit sketchy.
Philadelphia's entry has notes which say she is 'dau of Thomas Har- and Sarah Shoesmith, emigrants on board'
Also on the Earl Grey
Saml JENNER, 20,
native place Battle, Sussex (3 miles from Mountfield), gardener
son of Philadelphia JENNER, now married to Thomas LINDON
Hannah JENNER, 17
Battle, housemaid
dau of Jas and Charlotte JENNER, brother-in-law (sic)
Ship: James Pattison, 1840
Thomas JENNER, 20, labourer, Sussex, parents Henry and Annah JENNER
Ship: Florist 1839
John JENNER, 17,
native to Mountfield Sussex,
arr 1839, ship Florist,
parents William and Sarah JENNER
Also a on the Duchess of Northumberland, 1838, Henry and Mary Ann JENNER and child Mary Ann, from Sussex.
Judith
-
Agh,
at image 6 for the NSW SRO list per the Earl Grey, Samuel's age could be read as 18 or as 28... (Single Males)
at image 8 of that list, I am not so sure if Hannah's surname is Jenner, it could be, but on the other hand it may not be ... it's first letter (its an alpha surname list of Single Females), could start with "I" or with "J" and the second letter may well have a "dot" above it, suggesting it is "i" ...
So I am off to find Philadelphia's parents who were also on board !
Cheers, JM
-
And now the HARVEY family on board the Earl Grey, arr 1841
Thomas and Sarah HARVEY and their sons, George, 20 and James 23, both ag lab, both native place Mountfield.
(I do not see an entry for the parents but the notes for both of the sons say that the parents are 'on board')
And another connection on the same ship -
John BOOTS, native of Ewehurst, Sussex
Sarah Anne BOOTS, wife, native of Battle, dau James and Sarah JENNER
There must have been very few of the Jenners left in Sussex. ::) (There are 82 immigrants with native place of Mountfield on the Bounty list; population in 2007 was 573 so only a small village.)
-
And, sadly I cannot find Thomas and Sarah Harvey listed on the images at NSW SRO ... BUT the summary page (image 10) gives me good reason to think there's some typical clerical errors. It shows the clerk counted up 39 families and yet his own list shows 40 (unless I cannot count) .... Harvey is not on image 2 .... :'( but Boots is on image 1 ;)
The Imigration Agents must have been busy at Battle in Sussex
Cheers, JM
-
My oh my... the BDM indexes are showing some of the family name as *GENNER*.
Then going back to an earlier post we had:
William Gennes (sic) married Susanna Selmes on 20 Oct 1800 in East Sussex, England.
James JENNER's immigration shows this:
Notes: Son of Wm Jenner (dead) and Susan Selmes - In the Colony
This looks like his mother's death:
GENNER SUSAN age 86yrs d. 1871 CAMPBELLTOWN #3226
-
My oh my... the BDM indexes are showing some of the family name as *GENNER*.
.....
This looks like his mother's death:
GENNER SUSAN age 86yrs d. 1871 CAMPBELLTOWN #3226
And .... Family search's Historic Records (I presume akin to IGI Extracted) has Susannah Genner, 86 yrs d o d 28 Jun 1871
Cheers, JM
-
And there's a John Genner, married, aged 77, died in NSW 17 Jun 1896 (no name of his wife though) which would match up with NSW BDM index #5882 registered for the district of Campbelltown, both his parents given names on index show as "unknown"
NSW State Library catalogue shows they have :
NSW - Campbelltown District Pictorial Cemetery Register Produced by the Campbelltown District Family History Society in 2002, this CDROM includes cemeteries of the Campbelltown area. Entries contain transcriptions and photographs.
https://www.cdfhs.org.au/
Cheers, JM
-
A Google search shows several references that John GENNER & James JENNER were brothers, obviously one using the 'G' & the other 'J' in the spelling of the surnames.
Link to Campbelltown cemetery photo of Susannah GENNER's headstone:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0f2l/
-
NSW ER 1870 NARELLAN (covering police districts of Campbelltown and Narellan)
John GENNER, freehold, near Eagle Vale
William GENNER, residence, near Eagle Vale
NSW ER 1878 NARELLAN
John Genner, freehold, near Eagle Vale
John Genner, junior, residence, near Eagle Vale
Grevilles 1875 Dir
John Genner, Eagle Vale
Alas, I still haven't found a NSW birth/baptism for Susan Jenner/Genner who married William Burton 1878. Yes, of course there's many pre civil registrations that are not at the NSW BDM index, and yes, there's civil registrations that are not there too...
I wonder if Susan is noted (should be) on the civil registration for George Jenner, at Orange registered 1859, # 10505, son of James and Philidelphia.... I am suggesting this because I think he would be the youngest, so I expect all his living siblings older than him in that Orange family to be named.
Cheers, JM
-
Agh and JG was mentioned by Elstead in her find re the brand on the bullock
NOTICE
The undersigned has found a red working bullock, JG off rump, which he believes to be his, and which was lost several years since. Whoever can show a stronger claim to the said bullock, can have him by applyingto
James Jenner, Guyong
Cheers, JM
-
Wow. You've all made some discoveries since I've been away! :D
Took a look at the 1841 census for Mountfield. Less than 100 names in the village. Wonder what caused the mass emigration to NSW?
Please can someone explain the bit in bold below. I don't understand:
Also on the Earl Grey
Saml JENNER, 20,
native place Battle, Sussex (3 miles from Mountfield), gardener
son of Philadelphia JENNER, now married to Thomas LINDON
-
Has anyone mentioned the death of James Jenner? I found this:
8505/1878 JENNER JAMES AGE 72 YEARS DIED ORANGE ORANGE
The date of birth is not quite consistent with the James Jenner who arrived in NSW on the Earl Grey in 1841 at the age of 30.
(Note: Philadelphia died in Orange 5 years in 1883.)
I wonder if Susan [Jenner] is noted (should be) on the civil registration for George Jenner, at Orange registered 1859, # 10505, son of James and Philidelphia.... I am suggesting this because I think he would be the youngest, so I expect all his living siblings older than him in that Orange family to be named.
Would Susan also be listed on James Jenner's death certificate, JM?
-
Hi there,
Yes, I would expect to see Susan's given name on her father's d.c. provided she was alive when he died, and the informant knew of her. However, rather than suggest you spend bucketloads of pennies on transcripts of all the NSW certs, I'm trying to think of the ones that would give you the most amount of reliable information for the least amount of penny spending. So, in suggesting the 1859 civil registration for the birth of her bro, I am thinking that both his parents were alive, one would have provided the info (and be named as such) and the names on that cert would include all his older siblings as well.
The information on a b.c. would be given at a time of joy. Perhaps the older siblings were with the informant when it was being registered, and so able to help with the information. On the otherhand the information given on a d.c. is given when the family members are experiencing grief, so it may not be as reliable as a b.c.
I also think that the information on a m.c. can be reliable, especially where both the bride and groom have no previous marriages, and there's no suggestion of any hasty marriage. However, there's rural civil NSW m.c's from those decades (1856 - at least 1895) where the vital family history info has not yet been included in the NSW BDM registrar's records (ie missing info includes the occupations of the bride and groom's fathers, the names (including nee names) of the parents of the bride and groom, the ages of the bride and groom, etc).
Fingers crossed, and don't forget that of course there are many RChatters with better understanding than me of the NSW BDM processes.
Cheers, JM
-
Please can someone explain the bit in bold below. I don't understand:
Also on the Earl Grey
Saml JENNER, 20,
native place Battle, Sussex (3 miles from Mountfield), gardener
son of Philadelphia JENNER, now married to Thomas LINDON
The way I read that is that this Samuel JENNER is the son of a person whose name was Philadelphia JENNER, but who is, at the time of Samuel's emigration married to a Thomas LINDON. I am not convinced that it is 'your' Philadelphia but another one. Philadelphia seems a popular forename in that part of Sussex.
Judith
-
Please can someone explain the bit in bold below. I don't understand:
Also on the Earl Grey
Saml JENNER, 20,
native place Battle, Sussex (3 miles from Mountfield), gardener
son of Philadelphia JENNER, now married to Thomas LINDON
The way I read that is that this Samuel JENNER is the son of a person whose name was Philadelphia JENNER, but who is, at the time of Samuel's emigration married to a Thomas LINDON. I am not convinced that it is 'your' Philadelphia but another one. Philadelphia seems a popular forename in that part of Sussex.
Judith
Perhaps this Samuel's mother remarried as I can see this marriage & would explain the note on his immigration details:
Marriages Dec 1838
JENNER Philadelphia m. SINDEN Thomas Battle #7/363
-
Well found Merlin,
Yes, the handwritten "L" and "S" have often been mis-transcribed.
Agree with Judith, I am not yet convinced that this Samuel on the Earl Grey is the son of the "right" married lady, Mrs James (Philadelphia) Jenner. (Hoping you all know which Philadelphia I am trying to clearly ID ::) )
EDIT TO ADD,
I think it rather unusual for mothers to have a child born circa 1820 (Samuel), and still be having babies (George) nearly forty years later (1859) ; not impossible if Samuel was her first ... but !
Cheers, JM.
-
Had time to go back through my Orange booklets from my previous post here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,554933.msg4081254.html#msg4081254
I have found this ;D
JENNER:
James Jenner born 1812 England; Died 16/9/1878 married Philadelphia Harvey born 1814 England; Died 20/6/1883.
Sarah Ann Jenner Died 3/4/1911 married Joseph Randall Born England Died 7/9/1885.
-
Does the Orange booklet give any details of the children of James died 1878 and Philadelphia died 1883 ... particularly a birth clue for Susan ;)
My fingers crossed and crossed and crossed ;D
Cheers, JM (trying to cross my toes as well)
-
Had time to go back through my Orange booklets from my previous post here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,554933.msg4081254.html#msg4081254
Merlin - just to go back to my original post, please may I ask if William Burton (or any other Burton) is mentioned in your booklet about Orange?
William Burton married Susan Jenner (who was probably the daughter of James and Philadelphia Jenner) in the registration district of Orange NSW in 1878.
Thanks!
-
JENNER:
James Jenner born 1812 England; Died 16/9/1878 married Philadelphia Harvey born 1814 England; Died 20/6/1883.
That's excellent information, by the way. Many thanks :)
-
Does the Orange booklet give any details of the children of James died 1878 and Philadelphia died 1883 ... particularly a birth clue for Susan
Found this information on someone's tree on Anc*****
Susanna Jenner
Birth 4 Feb 1862 in Kings Plains, New South Wales, Australia
Death 27 Mar 1884 in Orange, New South Wales, Australia
No source information though
-
Hi there,
If that's Susan's right year of birth, then her m.c. should show who gave consent to her marrying William Burton, because she was not yet 21 :D . Have you contacted the tree owner on the submitted tree at Ancestry to check what document that info comes from?
Cheers, JM
-
Have you seen this message board on the Mountfield, East Sussex Web Site?
Descendants of the Jenner, Harvey & Selmes family (some of them in Australia).
http://mountfield.east-sussex.co.uk/message-board.asp
-
FOUND HER ;D ;D ;D
GENERS Susanna - Christening - 1862
Father: James
Mother: Philadelphia
Ref Number: V18625043 121B
Parish: Carcoar; Lachlan District, Presbyterian
-
Well Done Merlin
Congratulations, I am so relieved, my thinking cap has been working overtime.
The National Library of Australia has this re their holdings for Presbyterian Church, Carcoar:
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/1054954
Edit to add
Contact details for the Church :
http://www.carcoar.org/churches_13.html
Many Cheers, JM
-
Thanks JM, I think it might be St James in Carcoar with Reverend James Adams as that was the Presbyterian church from around 1861.
-
And, of course, the quarterly returns for the civil registration may have been lost before they even got to Sydney .... The Gold Escorts carried the Mail, and the bushrangers wanted the gold, so often they took everything ... Presuming of course that there was actually someone recording the births in that district, but many government employees may have quit to seek their own fortunes on the goldfields.
I have been trying to figure out if a Captain Gennys may have been another spelling variation for this family ;D
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/62721097 Bathurst Free Press and Mining Journal Wednesday 11 June 1862
Cheers, JM
-
Hi, Have just noticed this thread. You probably have it all solved, but in case not, Susannah Jenner, who married William Burton 1878 in Orange was born 4 Feb 1862 at Kings Plains, Blayney to James Jenner and Philadelphia nee Harvey - V18625043 121 B (they are our ancestors, too). Family researcher has been to Blayney and looked up the old records. Susannah died 27 Mar 1884 in childbirth.#12835
-
You have been talking about some of the early arrivals of my family.
Isaac JENNER (1827-1894), the son of John Jenner, was born in England in 1827. He married Philadelphia Wicks (1830 - 1914) in England circa 1852, the marriage producing eight children. He died at Uralla, New South Wales, Australia in 1894.
Isaac Jenner came out to Australia on the Meteor" in 1853 with his wife Philia.
Philadelphia was the daughter James (1805 in England - 1888 in NSW) and Eliza Jane MANVILLE (c.1791 - 1842 in England)
In 1854 most of the family went to Australia, Sydney on the Tantivy, some of Philadelphia's siblings stayed in Lewes.
They were Philadelphia's father , stepmother Frances PAGE (c.1805 England- 1877 in NSW) , brothers John (1836 - 1916) and Abraham (1838 - 1908), sister Eliza (1839 - 1915), step brother Israel (1850 - 1854) who died at sea and sister Phoebe (1844 - 1934).
Philadelphia's brother John is my great grandfather.
-
Hullo my name is peter & I am also related to isaac & Philadelphia Jenner. Their son Daniel was my ggrandfather. Daniel married Mary Edith Alice Coleman & they had my grandmother Phyllis Olive Jenner in 1893
-
Hi, Have just noticed this thread. You probably have it all solved, but in case not, Susannah Jenner, who married William Burton 1878 in Orange was born 4 Feb 1862 at Kings Plains, Blayney to James Jenner and Philadelphia nee Harvey - V18625043 121 B (they are our ancestors, too). Family researcher has been to Blayney and looked up the old records. Susannah died 27 Mar 1884 in childbirth.#12835
Have you been able to work out the death for William? I ordered the death certificate for the William Burton who died in 1891 in Orange and this does not appear to be the same man.(Many trees on Ancestry have this record but it is not him).
Also, Susanna's daughter Dora.......I know Susanna had three girls, but her death certificate only mentions 1 daughter. All the trees on Ancestry.com show Dora dying in 1955 in South Australia unmarried however this 'Dora' was actually a married woman and not the correct lady either.
Many thanks in advance.
Simone