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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: jenster on Friday 16 September 11 03:30 BST (UK)
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Trying to locate a death certificate or date of death for Edith May CROOK (born WYATT, formerly CRONIN)
Edith was born 26 August 1885 in Spring Hill, Queensland, Australia.
Edith married William Francis CRONIN 6 December 1905 in Brisbane, Queensland, Australia - later divorced.
Edith married Robert James CROOK 30 October 1916 in Moore Park, New South Wales, Australia.
The last confirmed official entry for Edith is the New South Wales Electoral Roll for 1937.
Edith's second husband, Robert James CROOK, remarried in Sweden c1943, but I have been unable to obtain any records from Sweden to confirm if Edith and Robert divorced or if Robert was a widower at the time of his second marriage to Dawn Paulene Lillian SEABOURNN (surname also spelled as SEABURN).
Robert's death certificate does not mention his first marriage or his children from that marriage.
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Hi
Welcome to rootschat :)
There is an Edith May Crook who died in 1943 in Sydney on NSW BDM. Father is Thomas Ray and mother is Edith Mary
Edit to add reg No 141/1943
regards,
Ros
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Thanks Ros, I have a copy of that death certificate and it is a different Edith May Crook.
Regards, Jenny.
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Hi there,
Welcome to RootsChat ;)
Some thoughts
Have you tried Trove digitised newspapers for a possible divorce mentioned in the law court reports, or for her death/funeral announcements ? http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
Were there any children from the CROOK marriage? (It is likely that these may still be alive, so please don't list the names of any who are) .... But if there were children, and they then married in NSW, their m.c.s should include the names of their parents, including then current surnames of their mother. It is also likely that those m.c.s would note any parent who was then deceased. The closed period for m.c.'s is fifty years, so transcripts of m.c.s before 1961 should be easily available.
Re the 1937 Electoral Roll listing. Of itself, that does not confirm that she was still alive, nor that she was at that address, as, perhaps she had moved/changed her name, and the records had not been updated. When was the last time you found both Edith and Robert at the same address on the Roll, and does their occupations confirm your earlier researching?
If there were any children born to the couple, perhaps they enlisted for WWII. The WWII roll includes the details of their nominated next of kin, perhaps Edith may have been alive at that time and had been nominated as the n o k? http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/
Cheers, JM
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The electoral roll listing, 1937..what is the address please, is Robert James at the same address?
The marriage in Sweden sounds odd. How did you find that?.
What was he doing in Sweden?
".... second marriage to Dawn Paulene Lillian SEABOURNN (surname also spelled as SEABURN).
Robert's death certificate does not mention his first marriage or his children from that marriage".
Where/when did Robert and Dawn live/die.
Do you know of any children of the Wyatt/Crook marriage?
Where was Edith May divorced - QLD or NSW?.
Who are her parents, brothers/sisters. You might find mention of her in death notices for them.
There is a WW1 record for William James Crook, wife E M Crook.
Letters about replacing lost medals.
In Aug 1940 James William has address 59 Hannam St Arncliffe, next of kin is wife E M Crook, Redfern..different residences so maybe they were estranged then?.
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Hi JM,
Thank you for your reply. I have tried all the avenues you suggested without success.
There were children and at the time of their marriages both parents were living. None of the children are still living.
Re the electoral roll, there is an entry for 1943 with Robert James Crook, his second wife, as well as Edith May Crook all at the same address. I am assuming the 1943 entry for Edith May Crook is incorrect and that her name had not been removed from the electoral roll. With information from the children's marriage certificates and the electoral rolls, the last confirmed date for Edith still being alive is 1937.
Regards, Jenny.
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Hi there,
More questions ;)
Is it likely that the 1943 roll is showing Edith living perhaps with her son and her daughter (or with her son and his wife) rather than with her former husband and his next wife?
Have you checked the NSW State Library's holdings of the electoral rolls to cover the "gap" years in those sightings?
Is Edith recorded as deceased on the m.c. for the first of the children to marry? Sorry, I overlooked your answer, "at the time of their marriages both parents were living".
Cheers, JM
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Hello Jenny,
is this her birth ?
Name: Edith Wyatt
Birth Date: 26 Aug 1885
Father's Name: William Wyatt
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Delaney
Birth Place: Queensland
Registration Year: 1885
Registration Place: Queensland
Page Number: 16331
Registration Number: B034906
regards
Alison
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My correction - the WW1 record is for Robert James Crook, wife is Edith May, identified several times.
I think the marriage in Sweden detail, with no access to information about parents, is sounding suspicious.
What is the occupation of Robert James Crook m. Edith May, and Robert James Crook m. Sweden.....do you have this from any sources?
What is the address on the electoral roll please...street...suburb?
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Electoral Roll
New South Wales > 1936 > Lang > Arncliffe > D >
all at 59 Hannam Street, Arncliffe
Edith May and Eliza Victoria { both Home Duties} and Robert James CROOK - no Occupation
New South Wales > 1937 > Lang > Arncliffe > C >
Same as above but no Eliza with them
Regards
Alison
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There is this death in Queensland- different parents to those listed on the birth I posted before though ??
1947/C4915 Edith May Wyatt Herbert William Olive Clarke
Regards
Alison
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Thanks Ros, I have a copy of that death certificate and it is a different Edith May Crook.
Regards, Jenny.
What was the date of death and the cemetery details from that d.c. for that different Edith May Crook please?
Cheers, JM
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Perhaps a side track, re Eliza Victoria CROOK on the NSW ER for 1936, see reply # 9
There's a d.c. indexed for Eliza Victoria CROOK, aged 76 yrs, died at Waterloo, (very near to Arncliffe), registered at Redfern, in 1938 #684.
edit to add
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/17443592 SMH 8 January 1938
Cheers, JM
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@Alison, Yes that is the birth details for Edith - I have a copy of the birth certificate, as well as copies for the siblings of Edith.
Eliza Victoria Crook is the mother of Robert James Crook, she died in 1938.
The Qld Edith May Crook is a different person - it seems to be a popular name!
@wivenhoe, Yes, the marriage in Sweden sounds very suspect. The death certificates for Robert James Crook and his second wife both list Sweden as the place of their marriage. I have always thought Sweden was used as a ruse to hide a marriage that didn't actually occur.
Re the WW1 record, the Redfern address represents the NOK address at the time of enlistment, rather than current address in Aug 1940.
@JM, The other death certificate is actually for Edith May CROOKS, although it appears as CROOK on NSW BDM. She is buried at Botany Cemetery, NSW (aka Eastern Suburbs Memorial Park). This Edith May Crooks never married and was 34 at the time of her death.
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Electoral Roll
New South Wales > 1949 > St George > Arncliffe > C >
still at 59 Hannam Street
Robert James-Telephone Lineman and Dawn Pauline - Home duties.
Regards
Alison
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Hi there,
I think Edith May CROOK was alive in Jan 1938, and is listed as Mr and Mrs R J Crook in the newspaper cutting... Sorry, not advancing your 1937 much at all.
Have you looked for IM notices at trove for Eliza Victoria, to see if any mention of daughter in law ?
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM,
I have seen the death notice for Eliza Victoria (using trove). As it only mentions Mr and Mrs R J Crook, I cannot be certain if it is referring to Edith or to Robert's second wife.
Cheers, Jenny.
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There is a WW1 record .....Letters about replacing lost medals.
In Aug 1940 ....has address 59 Hannam St Arncliffe, next of kin is wife E M Crook, .....?.
And at page 14 (of 27) Edith May Crook's address was changed to Barella St Wollongong in 1917 ;)
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM,
I have seen the death notice for Eliza Victoria (using trove). As it only mentions Mr and Mrs R J Crook, I cannot be certain if it is referring to Edith or to Robert's second wife.
Cheers, Jenny.
Sorry, but from Robert and his second wife's d.c. you indicate their marriage year 1943...
Cheers, JM
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There is a WW1 record .....Letters about replacing lost medals.
In Aug 1940 ....has address 59 Hannam St Arncliffe, next of kin is wife E M Crook, .....?.
And at page 14 (of 27) Edith May Crook's address was changed to Barella St Wollongong in 1917 ;)
Cheers, JM
While Robert was on active service, Edith moved to Wollongong. On his return they moved to Arncliffe.
Hi JM,
I have seen the death notice for Eliza Victoria (using trove). As it only mentions Mr and Mrs R J Crook, I cannot be certain if it is referring to Edith or to Robert's second wife.
Cheers, Jenny.
Sorry, but from Robert and his second wife's d.c. you indicate their marriage year 1943...
Cheers, JM
The marriage date is a guess-timate on my part as the 1943 electoral roll has them living at the same address.
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Hi there,
Have you had contact with descendants of Robert's siblings at all, particularly with the family mentioned in the Jan 1938 cutting, where Eliza Victoria's funeral departed from ... I am speculating that that particular family may have oral history knowledge at least as to if Robert was accompanied by Edith rather than by Dawn to that funeral. Perhaps someone has kept the sympathy cards addressed to Robert and Edith, perhaps a family member has an attendence record of who was at the service.
Cheers, JM
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"..In Aug 1940 James William has address 59 Hannam St Arncliffe, next of kin is wife E M Crook, Redfern..different residences so maybe they were estranged then?."
This is on page 19 of 27 in the war record, so Edith is alive and living in Redfern in 1940.
Which one died first - Robert James or Dawn?
Is this possible -
Sweden refers to Dawn Paulene Seabournn, who is born in Sweden.
On a death certificate, hers or Robert's, the place of birth is mistakenly recorded as place of marriage.
This would be continued with the next death certificate, with information taken from the earlier certificate, which the informant is using as reference.
Can you give all the details on the death certificates that you have for
Robert James Crook
Dawn Paulene Crook
all the details please including informants, death place, burial place etc.
Where it might identify living sons/daughters you could just indicate age and gender.
What are names for Dawn's parents.?
It is just not possible that Robert James Crook could travel from Australia to Sweden at the height of WW11, marry and return to Australia.
You needed a travel pass and a really good reason to travel interstate by train.
If they needed to fabricate a marriage place, another state would do as well.
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This is on page 19 of 27 in the war record, so Edith is alive and living in Redfern in 1940.
>>This address refers to nok and address at time of enlistment, which was Oct 1916 and the address is correct for that year.
Which one died first - Robert James or Dawn?
>>Robert James died first with Dawn as the informant. The place of birth for Robert is correct on his d.c. Place of marriage is shown as Sweden. Previous marriage and children are not listed on Robert's d.c.
What are names for Dawn's parents.?
>>Unknown
It is just not possible that Robert James Crook could travel from Australia to Sweden at the height of WW11, marry and return to Australia.
>>Totally agree.
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Which one died first - Robert James or Dawn?
Robert James died first with Dawn as the informant. The place of birth for Robert is correct on his d.c. Place of marriage is shown as Sweden. Previous marriage and children are not listed on Robert's d.c.
It seems to me that likely that the children of Robert's marriage to Edith were estranged from Robert and Dawn... and thus those children were raised by Edith, and that those children, or their children (ie Edith's grandchildren) could well remember when she died. Were those children married by 1937?
Cheers, JM
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The address as per enlistment papers (page 1) for his n o k shows
(wife) E M Crook
55 Walker St
Waterloo Sydney.
That is altered (presume by Base Records Office)
Edith May Cook (sic)
Barella St
Wollongong
I think the address on the Stat Dec at page 19, while it ought to be the address at enlistment, could well be her address in 1940 when he signed that, or at least it was her address in Dec 1931 when his medals were found and the CPS at the Court House at Redfern tried to find their owner (around pg 20).
I cannot find on those WWI images where his address at enlistment was Redfern, and I cannot find on the pre 1930 rolls where his address was Redfern. I cannot identify him in my copies of the Sands Directories either.
EDIT TO ADD, page 8, gives his address at enlistment as 55 Walker St Waterloo, Sydney NSW, age 31 years 10 months, married. (as at 23 Oct 1916)
Cheers, JM
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Hi,
Some more thoughts and a couple more questions, (perhaps rhetorical, but offered anyways :D )...
Re info on NSW m.c. for Edith’s children. I explain ... I am currently looking at a NSW m.c. from 1930’s. The bride’s mother’s details show as (names altered, but I hope I am explaining OK) Mary White, laterly Brown, formerly Jones, nee Smith. (bride’s father was Jones, deceased).
;) So, on the m.c.s for Edith’s children, How is Edith notated please?.
Re electoral rolls ... I explain ....I have had a close look at the NSW ER 1913, for the Electorate of Redfern, polling place Redfern. I cannot find either Robert or Edith there. I can see others (different surnames) in Walker St, Waterloo in that electorate, but none surnamed Crook, and of course it was not yet compulsory to vote.
;) So, where was the child born who is indexed on the NSW BDM online as born 1906 to Robert J and Edith M?
;) Or perhaps more importantly, where were each of the children married?
If in NSW, then perhaps the electoral rolls held by the NSW State Library may help you to find if Edith was living nearby at the times her children were marrying. The ERs pre computerisation of the rolls were printed off into each electorate and then within the electorate by surname. It would be easier (but still time consuming) to look through one particular electorate rather than the entire state of NSW to find someone with the same address.
Many of the historic electoral rolls are held at the State Library of NSW, Family History Section, Macquarie St, Sydney. From the NSW SRO’s online Archives In Brief 5 - Electoral rolls I read
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0f35/
“Any research into electoral rolls should take into account the fact that they were not updated every year, but names are listed alphabetically by division until 1990. After 1990 it is possible to obtain a listing that is alphabetical by state.”
Finally, re Sweden ... this could well be way off track, but I noticed on the NSW SRO index that a Charles CROOK, born SWEDEN, was naturalised, but that was back in 5 May 1875 ...
Fingers crossed this is helpful.
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM,
You have provided some really good advice for me to ponder, thank you :)
Both children were married in Wollongong. And going back through certificates I notice the d.c. for Edith's mother says "Late of Wollongong" - something I had missed earlier :(
I need to go back to NSW State Library to check Wollongong electoral rolls. The reference section of the SL has been closed for renovation, but reopens next week. :D
I will also research the naturalised Charles Crook to see if there is a family connection.
Thanks once again to everyone who responded, you have provided some very good tips for me to follow-up.
Cheers, Jenny.
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Hello All,
I am writing in regards to the Sweden re-marrying claim.
I am doing family history of this side of my family.
My grandmother is Beverley Joy Crowther, was originally Alcock but her father changed it without anyone knowing.
Beverleys Grandmother is Edith May Wyatt and her grandfather is Robert James Crook.
I have obtained a letter cover from Beverley which she doesn't know what its from only that its extremely old. The letter has markings and has originally come from Sweden and passed through Switzerland. This could be some kind of evidence into the Sweden theory as it was sent to 26 Killridge Hurlstone Park, Sydney which was The family home.
- Stephanie Brown
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Hello Stephanie,
I am so excited to see your post. There is a great deal of information I can share with you but some involves living persons, which I cannot place on this site. Are you able to receive a personal message via RootsChat? I know it is only available after you have made a certain number of posts to the site.
Let me know and I can send through more information.
Kind regards, Jenny
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I have obtained a letter cover from Beverley which she doesn't know what its from only that its extremely old. The letter has markings and has originally come from Sweden and passed through Switzerland. This could be some kind of evidence into the Sweden theory as it was sent to 26 Killridge Hurlstone Park, Sydney which was The family home.
Hi
Just gone through this thread because of the Swedish connection and perhaps I can help out. Is it possible to see the cover and perhaps the town it came from?
I have access to databases and the such and if we can find the parish it might be possible to find the marriage here in Sweden.
I can try anyway.
Ian
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Hi Stephanie,
Does the letter cover have any indication of to whom the letter was addressed? Or, who wrote and sent the letter? Is there any return address on the letter cover or a postage date?
Cheers,
Jenny
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Hello Jenny,
I am so sorry I haven't done much of the investigating for a while and am getting back into it now,
I would love to chat to you but have no idea on how to use this platform.
If you would like to email me at:
stephbrownfashion@hotmail.com
I would be delighted to have a chat, we may actually know each other!
Kindest