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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: lisa alland gillen on Sunday 18 September 11 17:58 BST (UK)
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JUST STARTING TO TRACE FAMILY TREE.... MY GREAT GRAND FATHER CAME TO GLASGOW IN 1900 HIS NAME WAS ERNST AND HE WAS A CIVIL ENGINEER AND HIS FATHERS NAME WAS ABEL ALLAND, I THINK HE WAS A CIVIL ENGINEER TOO...ANY HELP IS GREATLY APPRECIATED
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Welcome to Rootschat, Lisa. This would perhaps have been better posted on the Scotland board, as that is where you need to search. Scottish records can be found on www.scotlandspeople.co.uk (http://www.scotlandspeople.co.uk) which is a pay-to-view site. However once you buy credits you are able to view and download the actual records from there. A search shows that there is a marriage in 1901 for Ernest Alland, and also a 1901 census entry for Earnest Alland.
A point to bear in mind for future postings is that typing all in capitals is considered to be "shouting", and so should be avoided. :)
Good luck with your search.
Isabel
OOps, Scotlands People website should be http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
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hi there,
thanks for the reply. sorry about the shouting I just used it to make it stand out!
I have been on to scotlands people and I am registered but I have that information about my great gtandfather and thats why I was advised to come on here and to see if I can find anyone in sweden who can help me, trace to before 1900 when my Ernst arrived in dumbarton scotland...so this is where I, stuck at the moment as that is all the info I have. so hoping someone can help me over there
thanks again
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Sorry, I misunderstood what you were looking for.
Have you tried Familysearch.org? The site has a lot of information on Swedish research in the Wiki section.
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Did he marry/die in Scotland?
If so, you need all the information found on those certificates - Scottish bmds generally have more on them then the English/Welsh. Marriage should show both his parents' names. If he passed away 1966 or later ,his death certificate should have his date of birth on it (http://scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?r=554&628 shows what is found on different types of certificates in different years)
At least an approximate date of birth would help a lot. Check how his birth was listed in 1901 and 1911 censuses (from Scotlandspeople it seems the surname at least is found in the 1911), in case a more exact place of birth was given.
The more information you can get out of the Scottish records, the easier it will be able to find him.
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I get these Alland people:
Gösta Osvald Alarik Andersson Alland Akershus Norway b 1878
Gösta Osvald Alarik Andersson Alland Tutaryd Kronobergs län d 1939
Hulda Svea Allette Andersson Alland Hedvig Eleonora Stockholms län d 1955
Hulda Svea Allette Andersson Alland Stockholm Stockholms län d 1955
Hulda Svea Allette Andersson Alland Østfold Norway b 1881
Carl Einar* Walfrid Andersson Alland Akershus Norway b 1876
Carl Einar* Walfrid Andersson Alland Högalid Stockholms län d 1960
Carl Einar* Walfrid Andersson Alland Stockholm Stockholms län d 1960
Mildrid Gerda Charlotta Andersson Alland Gävle Gävleborgs län d 1952
Mildrid Gerda Charlotta Andersson Alland Østfold Norway b 1880
Naima Elin Gustava Andersson Alland Degeberga Kristianstads län f 1882
Naima Elin Gustava Alland Degeberga Kristianstads län b 1882
Naima Elin Gustava Andersson Alland Hedvig Eleonora Stockholms län d 1959
Naima Elin Gustava Andersson Alland Stockholm Stockholms län d 1959
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I have access to the Swedish records now, a location/parish & year/DOB is however needed to start looking,
Jan
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Hi jan
I have a year of when my great grandfather was born but unfortunately I don't have a location :( I will try my best to find out xx
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An old post here.
I have found your Ernst Hugo Alland (Persson) in Sweden:
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Here is his emigration record from Gothenburg to Hull:
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and his arrival in New York, Ellis Island:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J6BS-92F
It is free to register and look at the passenger list. It is also on Ancestry.
Ian
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Hi Lisa,
The 2 passenger records are the same man, ie your Ernst Alland. The Gothenburg list is also on Ancestry.
His birth though is a bit of a mystery. He was born out of wedlock with no parent names. His father though was stationed in the Kristianstad Garrison.
Here is his birth:
http://www.ddss.nu/(S(wf5qc2y0ym1qq255v44yr3mq))/swedish/ddss/birthResult.aspx?foddID=115347
(If you right click and use Google translate you should be able to understand it)
Ian
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I just had to make sure that he was the right Ernst who ended up with Abel.
So Abel Persson (Engineer) and Maria Charlotta Rosendahl were his foster parents.
I am trying now to find out where Alland came from.
Ian
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Hi Lisa
According to the books Ernst left Sweden again in 1904. The thing is though that I cannot find a record of it. The minister wrote it beside the first time he left.
Do you know if he came back to Sweden?
Ian
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I have a marriage certificate that he got married in dumbarton scotland 1901, landed here in 1900 and his first child maria was born 1902
that is all we have and he was an engineer
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I suppose you don't know when or where he died then?
Ian
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I am trying now to find out where Alland came from.
According to Abel Persson's will, his son's full name was Ernst Hugo Persson Alland. So he was known as an Alland already then.
Abel died 31 Dec 1883 in Oscarshamn.
Ian
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I cannot find any evidence for the name Alland. The only thing I can think of is that he found out the name of his father or mother with the name Alland and changed to it.
Alland though was not used very much in those days.
Ian
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Hi Lisa
There are 2 matches in the 1911 census in Scotland on Scotlandspeople. Do you have these censuses. I would like to see them, also the one from 1901 too please.
Ian
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Hi Lisa
According to the books Ernst left Sweden again in 1904. The thing is though that I cannot find a record of it.
I managed to get a good explanation on this. It looks as though Ernst needed his moving out papers to prove something and this happened to be in August 1904. So what ever it was he either had to have it sent to him or he went back to Sweden to get it.
Ian
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Hello!
I have some information about Ernst Hugo´s father Abel Persson (1843, Blomskog Sweden). My great grandfather was a brother to Abel whom wrote a record over the family including his siblings’ children. This genealogy he wrote back in 1912.
If you see this and want more information I can send you the register my great grandfather wrote. I also have some other information about Abel and Ernst.
So if you want the information, please replay to this post with your e-mail address or your address.
Yours sincerely,
Lena
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Hi Lisa (and everyone) --
We are potentially tracing the same family tree! Ernest is also my great-grandfather! Though in my family an Alland adopted my father -- so we're not related by blood (though in the case of Ernest Alland, many of his relations are not blood relations anyway...)
Are you related to Maria Classon Alland (Campbell)? She is the only child of Ernest Alland (by blood) that I know of.
Do you live in Scotland? I have a bit of info on Ernest's family in Scotland... His two other children (named Alland) were not actually his children either by blood or by fathering. It seems Ernst/Ernest/Earnest disappeared from Scotland sometime around 1903 (according to his wife; I think there are no official records past his 1901 marriage), but his wife kept his name.
Lenaa -- I would love to have the info about Abel Persson if you still have it?
Ian -- jamcat -- the link to Ernst's birth that you posted doesn't seem to work. Any chance you can repost?
I'd love any info anyone has on Abel Persson or Marie Rosendahl Alland Classon (she remarried after Abel (Persson) Alland passed away, it seems?). Her name is listed as "Marie Classon previously Alland, M.S. Rosendahl" on Ernest's marriage certificate and his name is listed as Abel Alland.
Also, if *anyone* knows what happend to Ernest Alland? He seems to have left Scotland, and then gone to Sweden and left there too (in 1904).
many thanks all,
San
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Hi San
Here are some records for you:
1843 - Abel Persson - Birth - Blomskog Parish:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m74/
1846 - Abel and family - Household Examnination - Blomskog Parish:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m75/
1856 - Maria Charlotte Rosendahl - Birth - Kristianstad Parish:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m76/
1875 - Ernst Hugo Alland - Birth - Kristianstad Garrison Parish:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m77/
1877 - Ernst Hugo Alland - Household Examnination - Kristianstad Garrison Parish:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m78/
1883 - Abel Persson - Death - Oskarshamn Parish:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m79/
1908 - Maria Charlotte Rosendahl - Death - Gothenburg Vasa Parish:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m7a/
Ian
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Ernst and mother and her new husband from 1904:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m7b/
Ian
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Also, if *anyone* knows what happend to Ernest Alland? He seems to have left Scotland, and then gone to Sweden and left there too (in 1904).
He was put in the missing persons book in 1907. He returned to Sweden on 3 Aug 1904 and the minister noted his whereabouts was unknown.
Ian
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Hi Ian,
Thank you so much for all this information! How kind of you.
I have a few questions if you can help. I've managed to translate most things, but there are a few things I'm unsure of.
In the link where Ernst is listed with Maria and her new husband (the last one you sent), it says Maria was born in Chrisianstad (?) - do you know if this is this Kristianstad or somewhere else?
Later in the document it says something like "kristendoms kunscap' and then says the letter c for the husband, a for Maria and b for Ernst. There is also 'Inom kyrkan'. Do you know what this means regarding religion?
Lastly is this a household examination that is revisited over several years? It lists various dates, so I'm assuming they were coming back and gathering info? (E.g. it lists Maria's husband as dead in 1900, and lists both the mother and Ernst as 'relocated' in 1907).
Many thanks again,
San
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In the link where Ernst is listed with Maria and her new husband (the last one you sent), it says Maria was born in Chrisianstad (?) - do you know if this is this Kristianstad or somewhere else?
Cheers San.
The parish is Kristianstad.
Ian
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Later in the document it says something like "kristendoms kunscap' and then says the letter c for the husband, a for Maria and b for Ernst. There is also 'Inom kyrkan'. Do you know what this means regarding religion?
I think this is a grading system for christianity knowledge and if it was in church or not.
Ian
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Lastly is this a household examination that is revisited over several years? It lists various dates, so I'm assuming they were coming back and gathering info? (E.g. it lists Maria's husband as dead in 1900, and lists both the mother and Ernst as 'relocated' in 1907).
This book relates to everything that occured between 1899 and 1907.
Ian
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Thank you again!
There is something I don't understand about the first two links for Abel Persson (birth and house inspection). They seem to be for an Abel Andersjon, not Persson? I don't see the name Persson anywhere, just the first name Per, for "Per Andersjon". Does Abel become 'son of Per' because of Swedish naming systems? Also I don't see the date of birth, just the year of 1843. Do you see it there?
One other thing to bother you with :) On Thursday 2 Oct 2014, you posted a record of "Ernst Hugo K.S. Alland 8175 21/4 Christianstad" but I can't click on it or open the attachment. Do you still have access to that record? It seems that on the 1875 and 1877 listings Ernst Hugo's mother was unknown and he was handed to the pharmacist (?) or family 'Perfsons' -- but this other link you had posted years ago is the only one I've seen with the name Alland on it (until the 1904 house examination).
Last, last request for now: the link for the death of Maria Rosendahl didn't work for me (it went to a locked site). Any chance of reposting?
Thank you!!!
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There is something I don't understand about the first two links for Abel Persson (birth and house inspection). They seem to be for an Abel Andersjon, not Persson? I don't see the name Persson anywhere, just the first name Per, for "Per Andersjon". Does Abel become 'son of Per' because of Swedish naming systems? Also I don't see the date of birth, just the year of 1843. Do you see it there?
Just ask away, I'll try to answer any of your questions.
His name was Abel son of Per ..... Per's son .....Persson.
He was born 26 Nov and christened 28 Nov. Both records have his date of birth and the birth record also shows his christening date.
Ian
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One other thing to bother you with :) On Thursday 2 Oct 2014, you posted a record of "Ernst Hugo K.S. Alland 8175 21/4 Christianstad" but I can't click on it or open the attachment. Do you still have access to that record? It seems that on the 1875 and 1877 listings Ernst Hugo's mother was unknown and he was handed to the pharmacist (?) or family 'Perfsons' -- but this other link you had posted years ago is the only one I've seen with the name Alland on it (until the 1904 house examination).
Here is the record:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m7f/
Ian
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Last, last request for now: the link for the death of Maria Rosendahl didn't work for me (it went to a locked site). Any chance of reposting?
This record is included in a book that is governed by privacy laws. You will have to become a member to view it. It is free to do so.
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/
Ian
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"Per Andersjon".
By the way the "j" is actually an "s". What you are reading is a double "ss".
Ian
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Thank you! This is all so helpful.
The record you sent me for "Persson Ernst Hugo K.S. Allan" is slightly different than the one from before (but very useful!). I've attached a screenshot of what I can see here from the one you posted before in 2014, just in case you have it, too. It has "Alland" instead of "Alland".
Many thanks again,
San
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You can see it better here I hope (the picture got cut off)...oh, actually you can see the Alland on both I didn't realise you just had to scroll to the right to see it! Sorry for sending twice!
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I see the difference. Sorry about that I didn't see it. I'll get back to you later.
Ian
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Hi
Here are some more records including the one from 4 years ago. There may be some duplicates:
1884 - Ernst Hugo - Household Examnination - Oskarshamn Parish: With Abel and Maria.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m82/
1886 - Maria Charlotte Persson - Household Examnination - Gothenburg Oscar Fredrik Parish: With note on marriage to Claesson:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m81/
1890 - Maria Charlotte Claesson - Household Examnination - Gothenburg Domkyrko Parish: With Ernst Hugo.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m7z/
1893 - Ernst Hugo Alland - Household Examnination - Gothenburg Domkyrko Parish: The record I posted 4 years ago.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m83/
1899 - Maria Charlotte Claesson - Household Examnination - Gothenburg Domkyrko Parish:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m7y/
1904 - Ernst Hugo Alland - Moving in - Gothenburg Domkyrko Parish: It looks as though he didn't goto USA. Just returned.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m7v/
1907 - Ernst Hugo Alland - Household Examnination - Gothenburg Domkyrko Parish: He was put in the missings persons book 1907.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m7w/
1908 - Maria Charlotte Claesson - Household Examnination - Gothenburg Vasa Parish: Maria's last entry in the boof before her death.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m7x/
Ian
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Thanks Ian!
I came across two police photos of Ernst online, and I wonder if you know of any ways to search Swedish police records to find out what someone was charged and/or convicted of?
This is the information from the record (via google translate) :
Ernst Hugo Alland Persson
Engineer
f. 21/4 1875 in Kristianstad city center (Kristianstad County)
Portrait from 1899
Police Report: 6/3 1899
Police reports 6/3 and 20/3 1899
Hometown in Gothenburg
The photos are here:
http://digitalastadsarkivet.stockholm.se/Databas/stockholmspolisens-spaningsfotografier-1869-1920/Visa/ernst-hugo-alland-persson/10955?sidindex=10 (http://digitalastadsarkivet.stockholm.se/Databas/stockholmspolisens-spaningsfotografier-1869-1920/Visa/ernst-hugo-alland-persson/10955?sidindex=10)
http://digitalastadsarkivet.stockholm.se/Databas/stockholmspolisens-spaningsfotografier-1869-1920/Visa/ernst-hugo-alland-persson/10954?sidindex=9 (http://digitalastadsarkivet.stockholm.se/Databas/stockholmspolisens-spaningsfotografier-1869-1920/Visa/ernst-hugo-alland-persson/10954?sidindex=9)
I used google translate to get an idea of what information was on the file attached to the photos, but as you can probably see, it's personal information (DOB, birthplace, hair/eye colour etc), no actual information on the offense/arrest.
Thanks so much again for being so kind!
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and I wonder if you know of any ways to search Swedish police records to find out what someone was charged and/or convicted of?
There are magistrate books online somewhere but the parish would have to be known. Great photos by the way.
Ian
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To Whom It May Concern,
Due to my weak English my granddaughter, Matilda, has helped me translate the following text I have written from Swedish to English.
On account of the interest of Abel Persson I send you, whomever the receiver might be, this message with information concerning Abel and his family. I have found this data when searching my own family history and the information is found, for some parts at least, in his estate inventory. Some information is also found in a register Carl-Augusts Persson was writing in 1912.
Abel Persson and Maria Charlotta got married four days before Ernst Hugo was born in 1875. Maria moved to Gothenburg, Sweden, the same day as Ernst Hugo was born. Based on this information it could be so, that Maria is not Ernst Hugo’s biological mother. Whether this is true or not is unknown though.
Ernst Hugo moved to Gothenburg in mars 1877 to live with Abel and Maria. In 1883 the whole family moved to Oskarshamn, county of Kalmar, Sweden. Shortly after the move, six months to be more precise, Abel dies of tuberculosis.
Abel was born in Blomskog, a countryside in the county of Värmland, Sweden. His parents, Per Andersson (1810-1876) and Lisa Larsdotter (1807-1894), was also born in Blomskog, Sweden.
In the estate inventory deed after Abel the following information could be found:
The heirs of Abel where Maria and their son Ernst Hugo Persson Alland. Something that is worth mentioning is that, this is the first time Ernst Hugo is called Alland. Unfortunately, I do not know why Alland is added to his surname.
Furthermore, my grandfather´s, Pontus Persson’s, father, Carl-August Persson wrote a register 1912 on his family. According to this register, Abel had a son called Ernst Hugo. As per to this register Ernst Hugo was already dead when the register was written. My father’s father, Pontus, and Abel’s son, Ernst Hugo, where cousins.
Maria Charlotta died in 1908 and her only heirs was her siblings.
Regarding the mentioned charge sheet from 1899 the crime Ernst Hugo was suspected for (and possibly convicted for) was gear forgery.
In conclusion a will shortly explain how surname was decided in the 19th century if someone finds it interesting. During these time children often took their fathers first name and added the suffix “son” or “dotter”, which means “son” or “daughter”. For example: Persson/Persdotter.
Regarding the attach file/picture this was Abel Perssons home when he grew up. This house still exist in Blomskog (nowdays Årjäng), Sweden.
Hopefully this text has been interesting and informative for whomever how is interested in Abel Persson and his family life.
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Hi there,
I was researching the name Alland ss my grandmother was named Christina Alland as her father was called Ernst Alland who came to Scotland in 1900. This is extremely interesting indeed.
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Hi ian, San, Leena,
Just reading through all these threads and blown away by the information.
Thank you so much.
The lady on the left is Ernst daughter Maria Alland born in 1902 Dumbarton Glasgow. The lady on the right is her sister my grandmorher Christina Alland but sadly I dont think Ernst was her father.
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Great photo.
Lenaa hasn't been online for over a year 4 years. Let's hope she sees this.
Ian
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HI Ian,
I hope she does get on to see it.
It seems San is a blood relative of my Great Aunt Maria.
Im blown away by all this info tonight. I wish I logged on years ago x
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Hi all! I for some reason didn't get a notification when Lenaa posted all that info about Ernst Hugo last year. Wow, I hope she comes on so that I can say thank you. Amazing to know what he was charged with, and also the sad news that he died. I wonder how / of what? (was it WW1?) And the photo of the house, wow.
Lisa! We are cousins!! Isaac was my grandfather, and I have visited your gran's grave in Glasgow several times. I have a tonne of info about the family from your gran's mother's side (the Gillies Camerons), all the way back to tiny villages in the highlands. I'll direct message you soon. So exciting.
Thanks all!
San
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HI San,
WOW, i am so excited by all this information. So happy to find new family members and there is a lot of us.
My gran had 12 kids and over 30 grandkids then great grand kids.
Look forward to being in touch very soon.
Ian thank you so much for all your helo, without it, I wouldnt have got anywhere.
Leena I look forward to hearing from you soon. ❤️
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You're welcome Lisa.
Ian
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Yes, thank you so much Ian! And again, thanks to Lenaa.
I see now that Ernst Hugo died by 1912, too early for WW1. And he might have even passed by 1908, seeing as he wasn't listed as an heir at his mother's death in that year. Earlier info in this thread said he had 'gone missing' by 1907.
I'm so curious to know why he left America in 1900 or 1901, and how he ended up in Dumbarton, then why he left there to return to Sweden (at least for a while).
Lisa, I'll be in touch more via email :-)