RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: seaweed on Monday 19 September 11 00:20 BST (UK)
-
I understand these records are now available online. Any one know if they are copies of the originals held at Southampton?
-
Hi
Just as an addition - he is in breach of the terms & conditions of his FindMyPast membership by offering to do lookups using that membership
What you can use the service for: You can only use the website for your own personal non-commercial use, e.g., to research your own family history. We are also happy for you to help out other people with their family history by telling them about records available on the website and how and where they can be found, including showing them anything within our free search results. However, you must not provide them with copies of any of the records (either an original image of the record or the information on the results page), even if you provide them for free.
-
I understand these records are now available online. Any one know if they are copies of the originals held at Southampton?
Seaweed,
No, they are copies of the files held at Kew and as you know not complete. Also Findmypast do not give access to BT 364. Here is the word:
These records are digitised from materials held at The National Archives and are the series BT348, BT349 and BT350. Please note that a fourth series – BT364 – is not being published at this time, due to data protection concerns. The collection is not complete for a further reason: most cards from 1913 to 1921 were destroyed by the Board of Trade in 1969.
Regards
Hugh
-
I note you have amended your original post to exclude the link to the FindMyPast lookup offer
If you are a member of that other board - it may be an idea to send a message to that person in case there is any comeback. I noticed that one of the administrators had welcomed the offer!!
-
Hi
I am in Australia and am also chasing some records of a merchant seaman. I am not sure how I got about it. My husband's uncle, Douglas Charles Fake, was a merchant seaman before and during the 2nd World War. He was killed when the vessel he was on was sunk by the Germans in 1941. He was on the Nottingham. He was born in 1920. We were wanting to get his full service history to go with the medals he was postumously awarded. My father in law is deceased and the only two remaining memebers of the family were young girls at the time and don't recall the details of ships etc. I do have a few more details that I can give in a search but I am just not sure where to go.
Hope someone else interested in this topic is able to help me
Regards
-
I guess you have seen this
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=4478009&queryType=1&resultcount=2
NOTTINGHAM official number 168227 was sunk on 7/11/1941 just a fortnight after she was launched.
http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/1198.html
I cannot find any records for him in the Fifth register of Merchant seamen 1941-1972 but it would seem someone with this name born in 1920 has records in the fourth register.1918-1941 As I am always getting told off over copyright, you will have to pay and find details yourself.
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/merchant-navy-seamen
You can also look at the last crew agreement for NOTTINGHAM which will give you some personal records This can be obtained from here http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=8197691&CATLN=6&Highlight=%2C168227&accessmethod=0
-
thanks for the links. I am happy to pay... if I can find information. Just had no idea where to start and what to do. WIll let you now how I get on. Thanks so much
Ozzypip
-
Just to go back to Seaweed's original question.
My understanding is that National Archives at Kew made microfiche copies of the original CR10, CR1 and CR2 cards some 10 plus years ago and then transferred the original cards to Southampton. Therefore the findmypast website has copies taken from the microfiche copy of the original which is now held by Southampton. Approximately one third of the cards on the findmypast website are CR10 (with the picture). The picture quality will be best on the originals.
best wishes
ernestjames
-
My understanding is when these records were copied lots of them were not included due to poor management together with the fact that some additional 8500 cards were discovered in 2008/9 and these are now being prepared for release.
Too often have I searched in Kew and found nothing only to get a result from Southampton.
-
Hi Seaweed
I checked on the National Archives site on how many microfiche copies of the CR10, CR1 and CR2 cards they hold which have been extracted from BT 348, BT 349 and BT 350. Total was 1,033,214 compared with FindMyPast figure of 998,838. Difference is around 34,000 which is around 3% of the total. What happened there?
I thinks it great that they records are on line but I think that an opportunity has been missed by placing the Discharge A number inside the paywall. It cannot be used as a search tool. The present search tools of surname, forename, dob and birthplace are ok for CR10 and CR1 searches but are not good enough for the 400,000 CR2 records which frequently only give the surname and forename or forename initial ( was that an M or a W?). Its no accident that the original CR2 cards are indexed by Discharge A number.
If you were able to search by Discharge A number then it gives you the chance to bring together the individual's personal details on his CR1 card(s) and his voyage details on his CR2 card(s) quickly.
It would provide 'pouching by database'
It also means that someone who has obtained the Discharge A number from the NA ww1 medal card website, can do a very simple follow up on the FindMyPast site. (assuming that the number has been transcribed correctly)
What do you think?
ernestjames
-
hello ernestjames
What do I think?
I have long ago given up trying to understand the logic employed by the National Archive. Ask two different people employed by TNA for guidance and advice and you will get two totally different answers.
I would agree with your thoughts re Dis A numbers the most reliable common denominator for finding records but that would be too simple, would it not.
All I know for certain, is, the number of queries I am receiving on this board, other forums and e-mail, concerning records from the fourth register of merchant seaman have doubled since FindMyPast put them online. I would agree a good thing, but a double edged sword.
regards
SW
-
Hi Seaweed,
I have an ancester who was a Seaman M.S. from at least 1841 to 1860.
Name of James Ogilvie Renton, wife was living in bishopwearmouth & monkwearmouth near sunderland he never showed up on the census himself as he was always at sea, can you advise me where to start looking for records of him in any ship logs or seamans records or national archives.
Any help on where to start would be appreciated
-
The Merchant seamans records at Find my Past, give two James Rentons born in Sunderland, one in 1812 the other in 1813 so possibly the same man. If you can download these records and it is your ancestor, we can go from there.
-
Hi Seaweed,
Thanks for the great start, I got the record from find my past, the james ogilvie renton born 1813 is my ancester,
but there was not a great deal of information at this site,it did Referenced BT115/9 but i am not sure what that is.
Can you tell me where I should go from here?
-
Good news.
It would seem he was a Master Mariner. The series BT115 is the Alphabetical Register of Masters 1845-1854 this should make him easier to find. I guessed he was a Master. Bishopwearmouth & Monkwearmouth were up market areas, popular place's to live for ships captains and many retired there.
I can find a James Renton in the Mercantile Navy List. Passed masters certificate, number 4306, in Glasgow in 1851. Captain of the Glasgow registered vessel QUEBEC from 1851 until at least 1853. I cannot find anything on this vessel but its early days. He made several voyages in this period Port Glasgow to Quebec. He is listed in the Mercantile Navy List until at least 1864.
That's good news as this should mean his full career record should be in Lloyds Captains Register but unfortunately this is not indexed on line for surnames beginning with the letter "R" This document is available from London Metropolitan Archives and would require a visit.
From your username I assume you are domiciled in the USA. If so you may be able to find some information about him via e-mail from the National Maritime Museum Greenwich by first of all filling in this form
http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/library/masters-certificates-request-form
-
Seawed,
That all seems to fit as the census record list his wife as master mariners wife.
And one of his sons my great grand father moved to port Glasgow in around 1875 I think this must have been after James death, my family has been there ever since.
You are correct about me being domiciled in the USA, I moved here 15 years ago from just outside port Glasgow.
I really appreciate the link for the form, I will persue that right away.
My user name is also my email address at hotmail dot com
I am so glad i discovered you posts as I had no idea were to start with this.
Do you know what the numbers below the years on this document from find my past means?
Thanks very much for all this information, can you tell me where you managed to find all these details, I would really like to get a copy of any documentation that is available.
-
Interpreting seamans tickets is not an exact science and there are several points that are not entirely understood. The ticketing system was widely unpopular and the format kept changing from the first register 1835-36 to the second series 1835/36-1844 and the third series 1845-1854.
What I can tell you is this, he was a captain for all of the voyages mentioned. Masters certificates were not compulsory until 1850 so the date of 1851 when he obtained his masters certificate would fit nicely, although he probably had several years of experience as a master. For 1845 and 1846 the number 75 tells us all of his voyages were on Newcastle registered ships. The voyages seem to be "Home Trade" (Coasting and the near Continent) given that the crew agreements were given up at six monthly intervals. The number 1730 is the port rotation number. No index to the port rotation numbers exists.
The 1848 voyages seem to be "Foreign Trade" but only state which British port/s the vessel arrived and sailed from.
First voyage arrived Shields port number 124 in a Newcastle registered ship on 12/April
The other two voyages were on Newcastle registered ships returning to Stockton port 93 and Sunderland port 92.
I would Email the Mitchell Library Glasgow to see if they have details of the Glasgow registered vessel QUEBEC and if they have anything on your ancestor.
If you wish to go deeper into your ancestors sea going career you would need to visit and research in several UK archives. Unless you are planning a visit in the near future then it seems pointless giving you any references. I will however endeavour to obtain a crew agreement for QUEBEC next time I visit Kew.
I will send details from the Mercantile Navy List bye mail. PS. Will send via PM as your email address is not responding.
-
Hi SEAWEED,
I have been looking for more infomation on my ancestor Master Seaman James Ogivie Renton and contacted the Mitchell Library by e-mail like you suggested back is aug/sept but didn't get any reply from them. Archives@glasgowlife.org was the e-mail link i got from the mitchell web site, is this the correct one or is there another way to contact them? The best information i have has come from you so i was hoping you could point me towards any other avenues i could follow to find more information.
Many thanks for your time
Lee
LEE2USA@HOTMAIL.COM
-
Hi Seaweed,
I just found two e-mails you send to me in Jan and Feb, i don't know how i managed to over looked them months ago my appaologies for that. When i tryied to respond to them yesterday the e-mail was returned undelivered, if you could e-mail me your new e-mail address I could get back to you regarding the reasearch we had talked about on James Ogilvie Renton.
I now have the postal mailing address you gave in that Jan e-mail but wanted to confirm it was still good since it has now been a few months since you sent me it. So i just wanted to confirm it before i mail anything off.
Again my appologies for missing those earlier e-mails and thanks again for all your help.
regards
Lee
lee2usa
-
hi
sorry i missed your message on ancestry on Manasses,
i ll be only to happy to share any info i have,
on the subject of mary diver there is some confusion as to whether its is diver or devine
i have nt quite got to the bottom of it my connection to manasses 1888 is i am the grandson of his sister Mary mcgugan
Ronnie
-
hi
sorry i missed your message on ancestry on Manasses,
i ll be only to happy to share any info i have,
on the subject of mary diver there is some confusion as to whether its is diver or devine
i have nt quite got to the bottom of it my connection to manasses 1888 is i am the grandson of his sister Mary mcgugan
Ronnie
Hi I have my G.G Grandmother Jessie mcGugaan who Married William Dolan 17 July 1882 Jessie was born about 1862 her parents were Mary Golden, age 29, and William McGugan, age 21. their family as follows
George McGugan
1854–
William James McGugan
1860–1931
Jessie McGugan
1862–1940
Bridget McGugan
1863–
Katie Ann McGugan
1864–
Manasseh McGugan
1865–1913
Mary McGugan
1873–1934
-
hi
i have daniel mary and bernard as children for william dolan and jessie mcgugan
would that be correct,
my own line on the mcgugan line goe s via william, william james, then mary,
the last manasses i know of died 2007 in dalry, ayrshire
that took some finding as no one knew what happened to him
just recently i had the opetunity to look at a ww1 record for one of the dolans
i ll check back and find out which one
Ronnie
-
I have Mary, Bernard, Daniel and William with William marrying Rose Rush who were my great grand parents
-
hi was william born 1892/3 if so you ll find his military service records on ancestry
there is 2 williams born in greenock 1 in the argyle and sutherland highlanders service number is 1293
and the other is in the royal horse and field artillery 4942/rh&rfa regiment
service records some times makes very interesting reading a few secrets can be revealed,
by the way i m a Bell from greenock now living in gourock.
Ronnie
-
Hi yeah William was Born around Sept 1892 and the records 1293 I believe to be his.. His Daughter Williamina (mima) was my Gran .. What is your Bell line? William married Rose Rush daughter of James Rush and Martha Bell
-
hi
yes 1293 is def Willian his army pension show his father and mother,
my bell line comes from islay my father James stewart Bell married bella miller
daughter of john miller and mary mcgugan, manasses 1888s sister,
shame i d contact you few weeks earlier i had access to williams army pension , medal, and service records, but my subscrptions just expired,
perhaps you can access them using a free trial
some of my own familly army records revealed a few surprises,
on the subject of manasses i know one of them was blind,
and theres a story in old greenock news papers that one was birched for stealing a pawn ticket and 2 shillings, im not certain which manasses it was as there was 3 or 4 manasses in the mcgugan line,
the watt library, greenock has old news paper stories on line some might be of interest to you,
Ronnie
-
I have an uncle Albert Stansfield b 2nd June 1915, d 30th Aug 1974. He was an engineer in the Merchant Navy, however I cannot find his naval record. I've searched Britain, Merchant Seaman 1918 - 1941 on Findmypast and digital records on the National Archives. Is there anywhere else to look or should I assume that his records have been destroyed?
I know he traveled to South America and that he sailed in conveys during the Second World War.
On Ancestry I have found him as a passenger on the RMS Antonia returning to Liverpool from Montreal in June 1939 and on the RMS Aquitania sailing from Southampton to New York 6th Sept 1939. Only 4 days after war was declared. On both sailings his address is 33 Wynford St, Salford.
Any help to add information to his career would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you, Yvonne
-
Yvonne,
His records will be held in the Fifth Register of Seamen - these files are held at the National Archives in Kew.
His Seaman's Pouch is here: BT 372/281/9 - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8174927
His main service record from Jan, 1941 will be his CRS 10 held at Kew in piece BT 382/1701 - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10989926 best to obtain this file from Kew as it is difficult to obtain online.
When he sailed as a passenger it appears he was to join ss F.J Wolfe in New York. I also have him aboard ss COMANCHEE and SCHUYLKILL in 1943 and GREYSTOKE CASTLE in 1945. His CRS 10 should confirm.
Regards
Hugh
-
Hugh,
Thanks for your speedy reply. You've given me lots of leads to follow. Thanks again, Yvonne
-
I have received the attached National Registration Card for my Uncle Albert from TNA but I have some questions that I hope someone can answer.
Under section Spare 1 there is the note 1939-43 ???? Ribbon Received. I assume this is recognition for his service during WWII. What would these ribbon look like?
I believe that he joined the Merchant Navy in 1938. Can anyone explain the dates listed on the card?
It is stamped that he left the Merchant Navy when he'd completed his war service. Would this be as per the date stamp 21 Jan 1946?
Thanks for any help. Yvonne
-
Hi Yvonne,
He would have left the Merchant Navy when his CRS8 was issued but yes the date would have been around that stated.
He served throughout the war so would have been entitled to more medals than the 1939-45 Star. His medal file does not appear to have survived so his next of kin could apply for them. If you need details please ask.
Attached is the 1939-45 Star and ribbon.
Regards
Hugh
-
It looks as though the documentation you have came from his Seamans Pouch. If so his Seamans Pouch should also contain details of his MN service 1938-1941. Have you details from his Form CRS10 from BT382 as outlined by Hugh? I would agree his medal entitlement should be more than 1939-45 Star.
-
Thanks Hugh and Seaweed. Apparently that's all that was in his Seamans Pouch. I am waiting for his CRS10 and BT382 to arrive, estimate from TNA 1st Nov. Perhaps that will help explain the dates.
Thanks again, Yvonne
-
Can anyone explain the dates listed on the card?
Looks like it is folded over but I think the dates refer to ration cards and books issued and also clothing coupon books issued.
I am waiting for his CRS10 and BT382 to arrive
They are one document. The CRS10 - his record of service - is held in BT 382.
Regards
Hugh
-
So he would have to be onshore on those dates. I should be able to check this against his CRS10. Thanks for keeping me straight. Best wishes, Yvonne
-
I now have a copy of my Uncle Albert's CRS10. Copies attached. His war service is from October 1939 to February 1945. I know he served on the following oil tankers F.J Wolfe, Christian Holm, Schuylkill and Comanchee. They all sailed in the Atlantic. He completed two sailings on the Greystoke Castle carrying general cargo. The first sailing was in the Atlantic the second was September 1944 - February 1945 through the Panama Canal visiting ports on the west coast of South America.
Could you please advise me which medals he should be entitled to? Thank you, Yvonne
-
Hugh would be best placed to tell you what medals he is entitled to. However this page will give you some idea.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/merchant-navy-medal-application-form
The MCA may need proof of the voyages he made, (they keep changing the criteria)
If so you can download the different vessels voyage record card from the BT389 series at TNA.
Example. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=f%20j%20wolfe&_cr=bt%20389&_dss=range&_ro=any&_st=adv
-
Thanks for your reply Seaweed. I don't think I qualify as next of kin. I'm a full blood niece but there's a full blood nephew still alive. However reading through the info you've kindly sent I think he qualifies for the 1939-45 Star, Atlantic Star, Pacific Star and War Medal. Best regards, Yvonne
-
I think that he probably does qualify for the medals you have suggested but you will need to send in the completed application form along with supporting documentation requested in the form - copy of death cert etc - the movement cards for each of the ships in question along with a copy of the CRS 10. The MCA will then assess that entitlement.
For Seaweed, I also note that they appear to have updated the qualification criteria so I must revisit my dad's entitlement - thanks for the heads up. I will contact them as the information regarding Falklands medal entitlement appears incorrect to me.
Regards
Hugh
-
Thanks Hugh. I do have most of that data except the ship movement cards. I got that info from this marvelous website http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/. But Seaweed has sent me the link at the TNA so I can send for those.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your time and knowledge. Best wishes, Yvonne
-
Thanks to you all I now have a lot of info about my uncle Albert Stansfield b 2 June 1915 in Salford who was an engineer in the Merchant Navy. But I have some gaps that I'd like to fill.
From manifests and his CRS10 I’ve learnt that he joined the merchant navy between June – November 1938, joined the Pool in June 1941 and left the Pool and the Merchant Navy in February 1946.
Also from his CRS10 I have very good detail of the ships he served on during his time in the Pool while from the manifest of the Aquitania I know he was sailing to join the F. J. Wolfe in September 1939 and from his Pouche I know he left the F.J. Wolfe in June 1940.
But I have two gaps in his service:-
From when he joined in 1938 to June 1939
From June 1940 when he left the F. J. Wolfe to June 1941 when he joined the Pool.
I have contacted the Southampton City Archives requesting a search of the “Central Index Register of Merchant Seamen 1918-41” for Albert but they have no info. Because he continued to serve after 1941 his records should have been transferred to the TNA and therefore be in his Pouche (which I have and they are not) or they were destroyed in 1960’s.
Does anyone know of anywhere else I may look to fill in the gaps?
Thanks for your help. Best wishes, Yvonne
-
He would have been in and out of the Pool throughout the war - seamen registered with the Pool in-between ships and this also ensured continuous employment which was a vast improvement from May 1941 onwards.
From this period you only have his CRS 10, merchant seaman's pouch and Crew Agreements to track your man. I advise you try and obtain the Crew Agreement for CHRISTIAN HOLM O/N 171462 for the year 1941. Looking online there is no 1941 record but it is probably in with 1942 as she did not arrive back to the UK until 1942 when the CA would be deposited at the MMO. So you want to look at 1942 and search around June 1941 for his entry which hopefully may show his previous ship - it should be held at Kew in piece BT 381/2208 - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11053621
Also look for the CA for F.J. WOLFE O/N 167373 for the year 1940 which should be held at Kew in piece BT 381/1209 - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11043600. Again it should, with a bit of luck show any previous ship.
Hope that helps.
Regards
Hugh
-
Thanks Hugh I'll try to trace those two crew agreements. Fingers crossed. Best wishes, Yvonne
-
Hi Hugh,
Just to let you know I requested the Crew Agreements that you suggested and The National Archives have sent them for the CHRISTIAN HOLM and the F.J. WOLFE. From the CHRISTIAN HOLM I've learnt that Uncle Albert's previous ship was the GEO. W. McKNIGHT she is an oil tanker transporting crude oil and fuel oil from the refineries in Aruba near Trinidad. So that fills in one gap in his career. The F.J. WOLFE listed his previous ship as "the same" so he was on her from 2 Oct 1939 to 19 Jun 1940. There was no CA for the trip starting Southampton 2 Oct 1939 and returning to Southampton 9 Nov 1939 so I don't know which ship he was on before than.
I believe that he joined the Merchant Navy in the second half of 1938 and we've found him as a passenger returning to Liverpool on the RMS Antonia on 25 Jun 1939 from Montreal. I assume that he's left an oil tanker in Montreal.
Do you think it's possible to find which oil tankers docked in Montreal during the first half of June 1939 and so make an educated guess at which ship Uncle Albert left or do you think this is too much to hope for?
Any further ideas would be appreciated. Thanks for all your help, Yvonne