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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: jamison on Thursday 22 September 11 05:00 BST (UK)
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Dear Chatters
I need your help again !!!
I am looking for information on the following;
- it could be BDM, children or whatever so that l can place them in Vic. at a certain time.
Patrick James HART was married to Margaret Corcoran.
One known child was:
Mary Ellen Hart or Ellen Mary HART b. about 1861 and born in Victoria somewhere ??
I hope someone out there can help !!!
Kindest regards
Jamison
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Hello Jamison,
No Marriage of a Patrick HART to a Margaret CORCORAN.
Mary Ellen HART b 1856 Longwood- Patrick HART and Margaret CORKERN # 9560
Regards
Alison
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Dear Alison
The name Corcoran has been corrupted in more ways than one !!
But Finally she has been located - Mary Ellen that is with the place of her birth.
I start with little and you all come up big.
Thanks for the quick reply !! ;D
Jamison
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Hi Jamison,
Could be them.
1903 Happy Valley, Ballaarat, Vic. Electoral Roll
Patrick Hart, miner & Margaret Hart, domestic duties.
John
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Hello John
Thanks for looking !!
It is a possibility but not sure at the moment as they would be in their 70`s at that time.
Regards
Jamison
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Not sure why I see MARY ANN ???
Same everything else!
HART Mary Ann
Father Patrick
Mother Margaret CORKERN
Birth Place LONGWOOD
Year 1856
Reg 9560
Sue
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Sparrett
Thanks for that but now l am a little unsure if it is Mary Ann or Marry Ellen !!!
Jamison
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One known child was:
Mary Ellen Hart b. about 1861 and born in Victoria somewhere ?? JAMISON
Well where did this information come from?
Sue
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Sparrett
Her parents are definately Patrick & Margaret Hart
It could also be Ellen Mary HART both forms come up in family papers etc.
I havd had to piece things together 1861 for year of birth because her age is recorded as 42 upon her death.
Her marriage certificate says she was born in Inglewood Victoria.
Ellen Mary or Mary Ellen may have had a sister called Elizabeth !!!
Jamison
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Jamison,
The name ELLEN is not mentioned on the birth I found .
I do not see MARY ELLEN at all.
Perhaps different sources have been used.
Are you saying you hold certificates for a woman named MARY ELLEN HART whose parents were PATRICK and MARGARET(nee CORCORAN)?
Sue
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I have rediscovered your previous threads on the HARTS and OWENS :D
While perhaps you are searching from a different angle at this point, it may be a help to summarise all that you know regarding MARY ELLEN so that searches are not repeated.
Sue
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Sue
Yes, there are previous threads but new names have come up like the above.
Separate thread (new) for these two is a new angle but nothing has been mentioned of them before.
That is correct !!! I have certificates that have both variations !!!
Jamison
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Not sure why I see MARY ANN ???
Same everything else!
HART Mary Ann
Father Patrick
Mother Margaret CORKERN
Birth Place LONGWOOD
Year 1856
Reg 9560
Sue,
In the index it is exactly as you have above :)
Haven't a clue where Alison got the 'Ellen' from ???
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Hello
I am just waiting to hear back of the place of birth and age at marriage.
Jamison
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Hi
There is also info about Mary Ellen HART on Jamisons Hatcher thread including mc from Albury NSW ... lots of HART info on that thread from various indexes.
Does the Albury NSW mc give you Patrick James HART and Margaret Corcoran as her parents please (Some rural NSW certs have blanks in some sections)....
And what does it show for occupation of Patrick....... Also Mary Ellen would have given info re her age .... mc age should be more reliable than age at death..... mc info comes first hand.... There is bc info on that Hatcher thread for Mary Ellen bc in Vic 1858 with different parents.......
Jamison, are you sure we should be looking for Patrick Hart a/or Margaret Corcoran .... where does this Mary Ann born 1856 fit into the OWENS picture ...
I am confused by this new thread ...
Cheers JM
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This is really confusing me .... sorry
Hello
I am just waiting to hear back of the place of birth and age at marriage.
Jamison
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OK !!!
I am confused as well ???
Her marriage cert. says Mary Ellen Hart and on some of her childrens birth cert. and basic family notes says Ellen Mary Hart.
The church where she was married say her parents were Patrick James HART and Margaret Corcoran which is correct.
Her place of birth from her marriage cert. says Inglewood Victoria.
I have no more info. on her birth trying to find it.
What l am after as l stated in the first of this thread any info. on her family - not her but her birth.
I know that there are other threads to Ellen Mary (Mary Ellen) but this one is for her parents and siblings which is completely
different.
I hope that it does not confuse anyone anymore. As l think confusion comes from earlier responses to my initial one.
Kindest of regards
Jamison
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I have no more info. on her birth trying to find it.
You will need to buy the certificate for the birth which I have listed in the name MARY ANN HARTwhose parents are the ones you have named as being on her marriage certificate.
You seem to have a number of confused identities here and certificates will be the path to answers at this stage.
Sue
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Some questions
1. How do you know Patrick and Margaret were in their 70s in 1903 please
When Hart married OWEN at Albury on that mc:
2. what was Patrick's occupation and
3. what was Mary Ellen's age and
4. were any of the parents noted as deceased ...
Cheers JM
Hello John
Thanks for looking !!
It is a possibility but not sure at the moment as they would be in their 70`s at that time.
Regards
Jamison
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More thoughts ...
The 1856 bc will give you info about her parents including where and when they had married and any older siblings for the daughter whose birth was being registered and the then address for the family ...... VIC certs are reknown for the depth of info provided ... perhaps the best records in the world for family tree researching. Alison, Sue and Merlin have checked and confirmed the VIC ref number for you.
So with that bc you should be able to establish a fair bit of detail about the couple, Patrick James Hart and Margaret Corcoran ..
Cheers JM
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Hi
The 1875 mc at Albury NSW .... you have Patrick and Margaret's names from your follow up after one of my posts on your Hatcher thread ... NSWBDM in 1875 were not yet authorised to obtain the full details for marriages BUT the clergy definitely recorded not just the parents names ..... As Miss Hart maried 18 Jan 1875 (per that Hatcher thread) she would have only been 13 if born 1861 .... to marry without consent she needed to be 21. The clergy records would note who gave consent . Those same Church records that give you Patrick and Margaret names also give the occupation for him and names/details of groom's parents as well of ages /occupations of bride and groom EVEN when NSW BDM cert has not been reconciled with the Church record ..
Cheers JM
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Ellen Mary or Mary Ellen may have had a sister called Elizabeth !!
Hi Jamison,
Would this Elizabeth HART be related to the Elizabeth OWENS ie Mrs Andrew DAY ie the mother of a lass born NSW 1916 with some info on your Refresh NSW BDM Searches thread ? Otherwise I am still confused perhaps thinking you may have more than 8 Great Grandparents names for someone in your tree.
Cheers JM
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The certificate does not always give all the info. you suggest - as l have with many a certificate.
So l have to find out the info from other sources to fill in the blanks.
The Vic refernce number is of a Mary Ann not a Mary Ellen (or Ellen Mary) so cannot be sure as l have posted before.
Jamison
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Elizabeth Hart (witness to marriage) could be the Aunt of Elizabeth Owens who married a Day.
Jamison
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Hi
I am not suggesting that the NSW cert gives you all that info ... quite the opposite ... I well know of the blanks on mcs for NSW BDMs ... I do know though that the clergy needed to obtain details from the intended before he could agree to marry the couple to each other and further the clergy needed to record that in his Church Records ... This was a fundamental reequirement of the various denominations in NSW but NSWBSM did not receive all that depth thus it sought legal authority to obtain access to the Church Ecords to in turn reconcile the NSW BDM registers. That civil admibistration reconcilation process is not yet complete, but Church records are meant to be extant. The hurdle is in gaining all the details from those Church Records.
Cheers JM
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Hi
I presumed you received the names of Patrick James Hart and Margaret Corcoran from the Church Records at Albury... I now realise you mention they came from Church Records but not specifically from the actual Church where the ceremony took place ... My apologies BUT the actual Church records should be extant they are never meant to be deliberately destroyed ..
The certificate does not always give all the info. you suggest - as l have with many a certificate.
So l have to find out the info from other sources to fill in the blanks.
The Vic refernce number is of a Mary Ann not a Mary Ellen (or Ellen Mary) so cannot be sure as l have posted before.
Jamison
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Hello Majm
Not a problem !!!
Forget about Ellen Mary (Mary Ellen) for the moment and let`s see for something else.
Are there any records of any more children born to Patrick James Hart and Margaret Corcoran in Victoria or NSW.
Jamison
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No, not in Victoria.
NSW you can search for yourself online.
Sue
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And for info about Patrick and Margaret Hart's son in law that BDM searching is at reply 1 on the thread for your enquiry about James and Mary Owens ....
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So l bought the bc online to this entry !!!
Hello Jamison,
No Marriage of a Patrick HART to a Margaret CORCORAN.
Mary HART b 1856 Longwood- Patrick HART and Margaret CORKERN # 9560
Regards
Alison
Info. to this birth
Mary Ann HART
b. 12 Sept. 1856 Longwood Victroria
Father
Patrick HART - Labouror - aged 32 - born in Ireland
married 1853 Victoria - children 1 living & 1 dead (cannot find marriage or children)
Mother
Margaret CORKER(A)N - aged 28 - born in Ireland
Jamison
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Hello Chatters
According to my source;
Ellen was living with her parents Patrick and Margaret HART before she got married, who of which lived in Walbundrie.
With the surname HART there's three enrolled (all with the qualification "residence") \
John at Corowa
John at Billabong
!!! James at Walbundrie= this person is now of interest - maybe a brother/father to my Ellen and Mary. !!
Jamison
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This family has been so annoying to find but patience and a bit of help and luck...
I did some check book genealogy bought a certif. and surfed the net with guessing and came up trumps.
Now l have the names in the right order. I took a chance with Mary Ann Hart born Longwood 1856.
Mary Ann born in 1856 in Longwood is the sister to my Ellen Mary born in 1859 (still to confirm birth date).
I have already made contact with MA`s ggrandson who has provided me with certificates to prove the connection.
But MA`s fathers name on death cert. is written as James Patrick Hart not Patrick James Hart
(and his wife being Margaret Corcoran).
I have also found their sister Elizabeth (witness to Ellen`s marriage) and her family - just waiting to here back from a
descendant of hers.
So the family grows !!!
Jamison
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Chatters
Here is a summary of my HART family to date
(Patrick) James HART and Margaret Corcoran
Patrick
b. 1824 Ireland
d.
Margaret
b. 1828 Ireland
bur. 14 Nov. 1891 Narrandera NSW
m. 1853 Victoria = cannot find marriage entry
Children
i - Living in 1856 unknown = cannot find birth entry
ii - Dead in 1856 unknown = cannot find birth or death entry
iii - Mary Ann
b. 12 Sept. 1856 Longwood Victoria
m . (i) 3 Feb. 1873 Albury District NSW
m. (ii) 16 Aug. 1884 Wagga Wagga NSW
d. 29 Aug. 1890 Yanko Creek (Narrandera) NSW
m. (i) Charles TOLL - 5 Children
m. (ii) Thomas Edward LANSLEY - 3 Children
iv - Elizabeth
b. 1857 (still to be confirmed)
m. 1876 Albury NSW
m. (James) Christopher MIDDLETON - c6 Children
v - Ellen Mary (Mary Ellen - Helen)
b. 1861 Inglewood Victoria (still missing)
d. 11 March 1903 Lake View Whitton NSW
bur. 13 March 1903 Whitton Cemetary NSW
m. John OWENS
b. 1853 Monee Ponds Victoria (still missing)
d. 1930`s Lidcombe Hospital (still to confirm)
Parents of John Owens - James Owens and Mary (maiden name unknown) (confirmed - MC)
Ellen Mary (Mary Ellen) married John on 22 Nov. 1875 in Albury NSW.
Children
(James) Patrick = b. 1877 d. 1878
Margaret = b. 1878 m. (Chris Foy) 1901 d. 1933
Elizabeth = b. 1881 m. (Andrew Day) 1906 d. 1968
John = b. 1885 m. !!! d. !!!
Ellen Mary = b. 1887 m. (William Francis Skene) 1912 d. 1957
Sarah = b. 1890 m. (George Holm) 1919 d. 1969
Ethel M = b. 1892 m. (Thomas Turner) 1912 d. 1975
Edith F M = b. 1894 m. (Arthur William Wealands) 1911 d. 1959
William J = b. 1896 m. !!! d. 1926
Catherine = b. 1899 m. !!! d. !!!
Twins
1st Unnamed b. 11 march 1903 d. 11 March 1903 & bur. Lake View Tank NSW
2nd Dorothy Grace b. 11 March 1903 d. March 1903 Lake View Tank bur. March 19o3 Whitton NSW
- a twin was buried at Lake View Tank - the other twin and Ellen M. were buried in Whitton.
Jamison
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Dear Chatters
I am looking for records of these people in Victoria
(James) Patrick HART
b. 1824 Ireland
d.
Margaret CORCORAN (CORKERN)
b. 1828 Ireland
bur. 14 Nov. 1891 Narrandera NSW
m. 1853 Victoria = cannot find marriage entry
Children
i - Living in 1856 unknown = cannot find birth entry
ii - Dead in 1856 unknown = cannot find birth or death entry
Could someone help me out with this.
Sorry, l do not have any more info. than is written here on this this part of the family.
Jamison
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Her place of birth from her marriage cert. says Inglewood Victoria.
Mary Ann born in 1856 in Longwood is the sister to my Ellen Mary born in 1859 (still to confirm birth date).
Could Inglewood have been confused with Longwood ???
Alison
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Hello Alison
It is not sure and no info. cannot be found at the moment.
Jamison
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Margaret Hart nee Corcoran
Convict
Ship Name : Blackfriar
261 convicts on board
Departure point : Ireland
Departure Date :24/01/1851
Arrival Date 29/05/1851
Conduct Record CON 41/30
Indent CON 15/7
Description CON19/9
Tried In Kings Court, Limerick
Larceny - stole a cow
Ann Lavery (also convicted) probable sister,
Guilty of receiving stolen goods (maybe milk from the cow?)
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(James) Patrick HART
Convict 33869
Ship Name : Emily(2)
Departure Point : Dublin
Departure Date : 14/07/1844
Arrival Date : 30/10/1844, Tasmania
Conduct Record : CON33/60
Indent : CON14/29
Description List CON 18/37
Tried in Tipperary
Charged with arms/assault.
Age 24 yrs (?)
His brother RICHARD HART,
convict No 33877
Ship : Recovery
Departure Port : Downs
Departure Date :1/06/1837
Arrival Date : 8/10/1837 Tasmania
Conduct Record 31/22
Description List CON 18/22, CON23/2
Appropriation List SO5/73/1622 p.240, MM33/6, CON 27/7
Richard's son, Steve Hart, was a member of the Kelly Gang
Inglewood is a place 23 kmsfrom Euroa, Victoria.
Longwood is a picturesque township some distance away
Hope this helps with your searches
MayHem
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Hello May Hem
Thanks for the info.
I `ve been out of it for a while.
I thought they were old wives tales - of the Kelly gang !!!
Now, l need to catch up with descendants of Richard brother to (James) Patrick.
Oh, by the way if l look at a map of Victoria - Longwood looks closer to Euroa than Inglewood.
Cheers and again thanks for the info.
Jamison
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Hello Jamison
I thought you would find the convict records interesting.
They all landed in Tasmania but soon found their way to Victoria.
Margaret Corcoran's convict number is 16463.
We have been unable to find the Hart/Corcoran marriage certificate - maybe they married in Tasmania.
You have MCs death certificate, she died of senility, your Ellen Mary Owens, of Bynya via Whitton was a witness.
Margaret Corcoran's father was Patrick Corcoran, unknown profession.
Her mother was Mary Macklin.
Mary Ann Hart died in 1890 - Margaret Corcoran/Hart had lived with Mary Ann.
I guess that is why your Mary Ellen was witness at Margaret Corcoran/Hart's deathbed.
Whitton is a tiny tiny village.
I descend from Mary Ann Hart.
The family may have had a little farm at Inglewood, just a cluster of houses.
Inglewood is crosscountry from Longwood, I guess it could be about the same distance from Euroa in a different direction.
Your Ellen Mary and my Mary Ann were cousins of Steve Hart, son of Richard Hart.
The bushranger connection is correct.
I hope all this information has helped your research.
kind regards
MayHem
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Hi May Hem
Yes, l did find it interesting
Are you from the Toll or Lansley connection ???
Yes, we often heard that EM was related to Steve Hart but it was never really talked about.
Yes and it has helped me out alot - but it has spured me to go on and look for them now.
Finding Patrick and Richards` death info would be great to join them up.
Cheers
Jamison
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Hi Jamison
In those days there was a lot of shame having bushranger connections so it was the veritable skeletons in the cupboard.
It seems it was the same in your family. Our elders did not want to own that information, the internet has changed all that.
We have no record of Patrick's death, bit like the marriage records, despite the genealogist searches.
Richard we have not pursued at all, other than knowing he was Steve Hart's father and Patrick's brother.
I suspect you will find both in the northern Victoria region, the Kelly, LLoyds, Harts etc were a close knit community
So my knowledge is limited to MAH and her immediate family.
I am a Toll connection.
When I have the time I search out an Owens which we found in Hay Cemetery, I suspect it could be one of your relatives.
I will revert asap with that information..
kind regards
MayHem
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Hi May Hem
I am happy to have both in the family tree - Convicts and a blood relative of a Bushranger.
No shame here in the 21st Century !!! ;)
Only when you have time to look it up - Owens !!!
Keep in touch - and l will start looking for Richard`s family etc...
Regards
Jamison
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Hi May Hem
Just surfing the net and found on a site the birth registration copy of Agnes Hart - Steve`s sister.
And another site with basic info. on their family.
Will search more and then post it here for anyone else to add to it.
Regards
Jamison
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I have just noticed that the Vic genealogist we used in 2001 made the comment that the Index to 19th Century PoliceWatch-house Books, lists:
HART Patrick - Greta - 2 August 1877. If it is MAH's father, then he may have died in prison.The genealogist recommended a search at the Victorian Police Archives, we did not follow through as we were already dealing with an overload of ancestors. That may be another source for you.
If Patrick was in jail, it would explain why Margaret Corcoran seemed to be living with and following around Mary Ann for many years.
Those families moved all through the villages north and south of Euroa - Violet Town, Avenel, Greta - in fact the core Kelly gang was known as the Greta mob.
Sounds like modern day bikie groups!
She did make the comment that Stephen Hart, one of the Kelly gang, was the son of a Richard Hart and born c1860. Stephen had a brother Richard, she could not see other members of the family without extra search ( the pre-paid search time had expired!).
The headstone in Hay Cemetery is MARY ELLEN OWENS, passed away 19 September 185?. "Always remembered by her loving daughter, Edna".
I cannot read the last digit on the death year, because there was a little glass jar filled with fresh pink roses in front of the year.
Someone still remembers and honours.
We were there in 2005, photographing an ancestor's grave in front of the OWENS grave.I remember seeing Owens graves in Narrandera cemetery, but we did not photograph as we could not remember the OWENS connection.
Despite all our searches over the years we have never found the final resting place of MAH or MCH. If they lie in Narrandera Cemetery as stated, then we suspect they are in unmarked graves. We searched other nearby village cemeteries but there is no trace of them, no records at the Town Hall, the Church, or the undertakers. We suspect they led wretched lives.
I hope this information has given you plenty of fresh leads.
Kind regards
May Hem
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Hi May Hem
I am happy to have both in the family tree - Convicts and a blood relative of a Bushranger.
No shame here in the 21st Century !!! ;)
Only when you have time to look it up - Owens !!!
Keep in touch - and l will start looking for Richard`s family etc...
Regards
Jamison
Here's the link to Jamison's new thread re Richard's family http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,585558.0.html
Cheers, JM
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Hi Jamison
Paul O'Keeffe is a gt gt grandson of Ettie (Esther) Hart, younger sister of Steve Hart, sister of Richard Hart jnr, and daughter of Richard Hart, snr..
Ettie allegedly was secretly married to Ned Kelly.
His website is www.neducate.com.au.
He may be able to give some shortcuts in your research of the Richard Harts.
kind regards
Trish
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Hi May Hem,
I think you might need to look at the Tasmanian convict info again. Where are you getting the convict numbers from?
Margaret Hart nee Corcoran
Convict
Ship Name : Blackfriar
261 convicts on board
Departure point : Ireland
Departure Date :24/01/1851
Arrival Date 29/05/1851
Conduct Record CON 41/30
Indent CON 15/7
Description CON19/9
Tried In Kings Court, Limerick
Larceny - stole a cow
Ann Lavery (also convicted) probable sister,
Guilty of receiving stolen goods (maybe milk from the cow?)
Margaret Corcoran's convict number is 16463.
Margaret Corcoran's father was Patrick Corcoran, unknown profession.
Her mother was Mary Macklin.
kind regards
MayHem
Margaret CORCORAN per Blackfriar to Tas, arr. 29 May 1851
Convict No. 1157
Her father was Thomas, not Patrick
Sister Ann CORCORAN tried and transported with her, also for cow stealing, not receiving stolen goods
Their brothers were Daniel, James and William, one sister Mary Ann
Margaret married Robert RUCK in Tas in 1852
She received her conditional pardon in 1857 and they moved to Victoria where I can see them having children up until at least 1868.
Sister Ann married Thomas RIORDAN in 1855 and died a few months later.
(James) Patrick HART
Convict 33869
Ship Name : Emily(2)
Departure Point : Dublin
Departure Date : 14/07/1844
Arrival Date : 30/10/1844, Tasmania
Conduct Record : CON33/60
Indent : CON14/29
Description List CON 18/37
Tried in Tipperary
Charged with arms/assault.
Age 24 yrs (?)
Patrick HART per Emily to Tas, arr. 30 Oct 1844
Convict No. 14303
Father John, Mother Ellen
Brothers Frank and Johnny
Sister Mary Ellen
No mention of a brother Richard
His brother RICHARD HART,
convict No 33877
Ship : Recovery
Departure Port : Downs
Departure Date :1/06/1837
Arrival Date : 8/10/1837 Tasmania
Conduct Record 31/22
Description List CON 18/22, CON23/2
Appropriation List SO5/73/1622 p.240, MM33/6, CON 27/7
Richard HART per Recovery to Tas, arr. 8 Oct 1837
Convict No. 2239
Tried at the Central Criminal Court, London (Old Bailey)
Native of Deptford or Bedford (description lists name both places, possibly an issue with his accent)
He was not Irish
Tas convict records are free to view on the archives website http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=11
Debra :)
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Well sorted Debra, ;D
There's also this recent thread re Steve Hart
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,582028.0.html
Cheers, JM
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Hi everyone
Convict numbers are different, but ship is the same, for Richard Hart.
Our genealogist used QSearch, State Library of Q'ld,entries in the British convict transportation register 1787-1867, compiled from British Home Office(HO) records.
May be worth checking for comparison.
Source : Australian Joint Copying Project, Microfilm Roll 90, Class and Piece Number HO11/11 Page No. 42 (Richard Hart).
I have checked the Tasmanian Govt website, and note the difference. Think checking the British Home Office might be helpful.
Re: Margaret Corcoran Hart, her parental details have come from a transcript - either of her death certificate or church records.
Hope this information helps.
regards to all
May Hem
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Hi May Hem,
Source : Australian Joint Copying Project, Microfilm Roll 90, Class and Piece Number HO11/11 Page No. 42 (Richard Hart).
I did look at this original document and no convict numbers are recorded.
QSearch, State Library of Q'ld,entries in the British convict transportation register 1787-1867, compiled from British Home Office(HO) records.
This index is compiled from the same record as above (HO11/11 Page No. 42)
I note that the numbers you have for Richard and Patrick are only 8 digits apart so I would say that they have come from an alphabetical listing of convict names.
This Richard HART was born and tried in England, so he cannot be the Richard HART who married Bridget YOUNG and who claimed to be born in Dublin.
The convict Margaret CORCORAN who was transported on the Blackfriar is not the same person as the Margaret who married Patrick HART.
Perhaps the person who supplied these convict details was just giving you some options to explore further.
Debra :)
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Hi Debra
Please -no talk about something to explore! We understood that these were the facts . Maybe the convicts have taken over!
My documents are printouts from QSearch - Tasmanian Convict files.
Within the Hart/Corcoran family relationships it is known that they were all - Kellys, Quinns included -transported to Tasmania, and then all made their way to Victoria. We know for certain that (James) Patrick Hart and Richard Hart were brothers.
Failing these now seemingly doubtful records -which we have never had cause to doubt - the next best course is to find the correct persons.
Maybe through the tip I gave re the gentleman who is a Richard Hart family descendant and historian. He has documents and clippings from Ettie Hart, daughter of Richard Hart, and who died in 1926. I think he would be the best, quickest and probably most accurate source.
I did wonder whether convicts left the UK with one number and were reallocated another on arrival in Tasmania.
May Hem
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Re: Margaret Corcoran Hart, her parental details have come from a transcript - either of her death certificate or church records.
Hi there,
I tend to consider that the personal information recorded on d.c.s can be less reliable simply because it cannot possibly have been given directly by the deceased to the person recording it. The recorder is not responsible for checking that information, only for recording it. The informant is expected to provide truthful information, to the best of their knowledge.
And, if given by a family member, then it is given at a time of grief, when their main concerns would be for arranging the funeral, contacting other family members and seeking comfort for their own grief.The informant would be relying on their own knowledge, and if a descendant of the deceased, then that knowledge would be most likely be based on oral history ie their own recollection of their own grandparents names.
May Hem, may I please ask if you have any other official document that shows that Margaret HART, nee Corcoran was actually the convict transported on the Blackfriar?
I am becoming confused by your latest post re "We understood that these were the facts. Maybe the convicts have taken over!" I have yet to find conclusive evidence that the two particular chaps under consideration [(James) Patrick Hart and Richard Hart] were in fact brothers.
Cheers, JM
Hi Debra
Please -no talk about something to explore! We understood that these were the facts . Maybe the convicts have taken over!
My documents are printouts from QSearch - Tasmanian Convict files.
Within the Hart/Corcoran family relationships it is known that they were all - Kellys, Quinns included -transported to Tasmania, and then all made their way to Victoria. We know for certain that (James) Patrick Hart and Richard Hart were brothers.
Failing these now seemingly doubtful records -which we have never had cause to doubt - the next best course is to find the correct persons.
Maybe through the tip I gave re the gentleman who is a Richard Hart family descendant and historian. He has documents and clippings from Ettie Hart, daughter of Richard Hart, and who died in 1926. I think he would be the best, quickest and probably most accurate source.
I did wonder whether convicts left the UK with one number and were reallocated another on arrival in Tasmania.
May Hem
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Hi there,
Re Margaret HART....
From a list of Prisoners reported as Discharged from the Penal Establishments during the week ending 7th December 1892
At Geelong Gaol
HART, Margaret, 5326, tried at Melbourne PS on 26 May 1892, for the offence of idle and disorderly, sentenced to 6 months : Native of Ireland, with a trade of servant, born 1817, she was 5 ft 1 ½ in tall, with a fresh complexion, grey hair, blue eyes, and had thirteen previous convictions.
From a similar list, discharged during the week ending 11 March 1899
Coburg Gaol, Hart Margaret, 4690/5326, Melbourne PS, 7 March 1898, no visible means & c. 12 months, born Ireland 1824, 5 ft 3 in, fresh complexion, grey hair, blue eyes, slight build, Repeatedly convicted.
Back to an 1888 list
From Geelong Gaol, Margaret Hart, 5326, South Melbourne PS, tried 22 March 1887, vagrancy, 12 months, Ireland, servant, (on this list she was born 1837), 5 ft 2 inch, fresh complexion, grey hair, blue eyes, TWO previous convictions.
I notice that the prisoner number remains the same, just the year born and the height varies. These records are from the various Victoria Police Gazettes.
I cannot tell from those official records if that particular Margaret Hart was connected in any way to Margaret Corcoran HART, or to Steve Hart or to Richard Hart, however that particular lady (born circa 1817 -1837 in Ireland) definitely had a difficult life.
Cheers, JM
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(Patrick) James HART and Margaret Corcoran
Patrick
b. 1824 Ireland
d.
]Margaret
b. 1828 Ireland
bur. 14 Nov. 1891 Narrandera NSW
m. 1853 Victoria = cannot find marriage entry
Tidying up my desk, so I am adding the following which I don't recall being provided on this thread....
The NSW BDM online index has a death registration for a Margaret HART, given names of her parents indexed as Patrick and Margaret, registered in the Narrandera District in 1891, and the ref is #10031.
I apologise if I am duplicating info already provided. May I ask .... how old was the deceased as per that dc? , and was she noted as the wife of Patrick Hart, and the daughter of Patrick Corcoran ....
Cheers, JM
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Hi Jamison
I meant maybe the genealogist was a 'convict' for charging for (maybe) fraudulent information! It is a common saying here.
Re death certificate misinformation - yes I agree - relatives often were not aware of the facts, though it was certified by Mary Ellen Owens, daughter, Binya(Bynya) via Whitton. Relatives often seem to have little information about their other relatives, especially in those times. I have estimated MCH's birth date as 1808 in Ireland, as her stated age at death in 1891 was 83 years. Have you searched the Irish files in terms of her departure?
I though we were searching for Margaret Corcoran who married a Hart?
From 1872 MCH was featuring as present on birth certificates of MAH's children which is why I gathered something had happened to Patrick her husband.
Did you check the Victorian Watch-House files for information on the Patrick Hart prisoner in 1877.He may be buried in the prison or nearby.
It has always been close family knowledge that Richard and Patrick were brothers, the LLoyds were family friends until all their deaths in the mid 1900's.
Re Debra's comments - I'm searching my files to see if I can find any more written confirmation of the relationship between Richard and Patrick.
The relationships certainly did stand, it is just a matter of finding and correcting the information I gave you, it seems. I need to check with others.
Kind regards
MayHem
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Apropos of your query re Margaret Hart, d 1891, Narrandera- yes, the document states that she was the wife of James Hart, b. Ireland, not known how long in Australian colonies, wife of James Hart,Elizabeth 34 years, Ellen Mary 31 years, 1 female decd (Mary Ann), father Patrick Corking,this was crossed out and replaced in writing by CORCORAN, mother Margaret Macklin. 83 yrs of age, so I estimate a birth age of 1808.
Maybe we should concentrate on searching James (Patrick) Hart in official documents. I know he was called Patrick because in one of the documents his name was given as Patherick, so I could 'see' his Irish accent.
I have just checked the genealogist's letter once more, she states that in the Victorian Pioneers Index there were no children after Mary Ann born to Patrick and and Margaret (nee Corkern/Corcoran).
She also noted children being born being born to a Patrick and Margaret HART (nee Danaher) from 1859, they lived in the Gisborne area. I happened to have a copy of their marriage registration - m 10 November 1956 St Francis Church Melbourne, both born in Ireland, his father was Patrick Hart and his mother was Margaret Wall. Not the ones we are seeking. MayHem
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Here are some links to the convict records to make it a little easier:
Margaret and Ann Corcoran's indent (record goes across 2 pages, use the arrow at the top to go to the second)
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON15-1-7,364,16,L,80
Margaret's conduct record, Ann's is on the next page
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON41-1-30,269,57,L,80
Debra :)
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Richard HART's conduct record
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON31-1-22,194,4,L,80
Description list
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON18-1-22,248,105,L,80
There is no indent.
His trial at the Old Bailey
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def2-679-18370130&div=t18370130-679#highlight
Patrick HART's conduct record
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON33-1-60,212,84,L,80
Indent (2 pages)
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON14-1-29,325,36,L,80
Debra :)
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Margaret Hart, d 1891, Narrandera- yes, the document states that she was the wife of James Hart, b. Ireland, not known how long in Australian colonies, wife of James Hart,Elizabeth 34 years, Ellen Mary 31 years, 1 female decd (Mary Ann), father Patrick Corking,this was crossed out and replaced in writing by CORCORAN, mother Margaret Macklin. 83 yrs of age, so I estimate a birth age of 1808.
Maybe we should concentrate on searching James (Patrick) Hart in official documents. I know he was called Patrick because in one of the documents his name was given as Patherick, so I could 'see' his Irish accent.
May I please ask what document causes you to consider that James HART and Patrick/Patherick HART is ONE person?
Hi Jamison
I meant maybe the genealogist was a 'convict' for charging for (maybe) fraudulent information! It is a common saying here.
Re death certificate misinformation - yes I agree - relatives often were not aware of the facts, though it was certified by Mary Ellen Owens, daughter, Binya(Bynya) via Whitton.
I realise that Mary Ellen OWENS, (Margaret's daughter) and the informant on Margaret's d.c. may well NOT have recalled her own father's given name, IF he had been lost to the family from Mary Ellen's childhood, BUT .... James as an alternative to Patrick seems to be somewhat a stretch "too far"....
As an aside, I have not ever heard of genealogists being considered as 'convict' for any of the fees they charge, with or without supplying 'fraudulent' info....
Anyways, May Hem, here's some links to some of the previous RChatter threads re Margaret Corcoran's family :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,498551.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,556906.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,550314.20.html
Cheers, JM
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Hi MAJM
It was a Aussie joke re the convicts...........
I am only discussing Mary Ann Hart and her mother Margaret(Corcoran/Corkens/Corking) and(James) Patrick Hart, who are my ancestors.
This Hart family lived variously between Inglewood and Longwood in northern Victoria, and were not citydwellers. I doubt if they were educated
They were poor farmers and labourers. Maybe they were virtually illiterate.
We have no proof but we suspect that because of their accents their names were sometimes misspelt.
MAH was b. 12 September 1856, at Longwood, in the District of Avenel, her parents are named as Pathrick Hart, labourer, age 32 from Ireland, married in 1853, Victoria, her mother is named as Margaret Hart, formerly Corkens, aged 28, from Ireland, signed Patherick Hart, father, Longwood The "H" and "E" have been crossed out, reducing the signature to Patrick.
His wife's death certificate gave his name as James Hart. I think probably there were a lot of aliases in those days, because I noticed on the Tasmanian Govt convict link given by Debra that aliases are also requested.
Hi Debra
You have done a magnificent job, digitising records has certainly made such a difference. Our family research stretches back to the days of letters.
You have given me a big headache (joke!) because now I will have reassess what is correct on the family tree. Just as we had it all fitting in perfectl
One thing which is troubling me about our Margaret Corkerns, Corcoran, Corking, Hart is her age at death - MAH died aged 33 yrs, so her mother would have been
aged 50 when she gave birth to MAH. As I have a only transcript I now wonder whether her age was more likely to be 63yrs at death, giving her a birth date of
1828. If so, then what do I make of that? Any ideas?
kind regards
MayHem
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I think if you go back through this thread you will find that Jamison has Mary Ann's birth certificate. It should give detailed information about her parents, including their then ages.
So l bought the bc online to this entry !!!
Hello Jamison,
No Marriage of a Patrick HART to a Margaret CORCORAN.
Mary HART b 1856 Longwood- Patrick HART and Margaret CORKERN # 9560
Regards
Alison
Info. to this birth
Mary Ann HART
b. 12 Sept. 1856 Longwood Victroria
Father
Patrick HART - Labouror - aged 32 - born in Ireland
married 1853 Victoria - children 1 living & 1 dead (cannot find marriage or children)
Mother
Margaret CORKER(A)N - aged 28 - born in Ireland
Jamison
This was as a result of Sue's post that Merlin confirmed here:
Not sure why I see MARY ANN ???
Same everything else!
HART Mary Ann
Father Patrick
Mother Margaret CORKERN
Birth Place LONGWOOD
Year 1856
Reg 9560
Sue,
In the index it is exactly as you have above :)
Haven't a clue where Alison got the 'Ellen' from ???
So, Margaret was 28 when her daughter Mary Ann was born in 1856.....
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM
Thank you for that information re Margaret Corcoran's age at marriage, it is a more likely age.
MayHem
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Hi JM
Thank you for that information re Margaret Corcoran's age at marriage, it is a more likely age.
MayHem
That info is from Jamison's post after Jamison purchased the image of Mary Ann's birth certificate, and as I understand it, there has not yet been any sighting of Margaret Corcoran's marriage certificate. It is simply by deduction that you could estimate Margaret's age at marriage.
As you hold the transcript for Margaret's death cert, and your post shows it has her age at death as 83, then perhaps you may need to purchase the actual certificate to establish your own reading of that recorded age at death, and confirm the alternation as to the spelling of her maiden surname.
Cheers, JM
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I was also concerned about the difference in ages on the two documents. A 20 year difference is way beyond "tweaking" your age. I would purchase a transcription of the full death cert for Margaret and tell them that there is an issue with her age when you place your order.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/howToTraceYouFamTree.htm#TranscriptionAgent
Am I right in thinking that you don't have a death for Patrick?
I don't know if it has been mentioned whether or not they were Catholic, but if they were it would also be a good idea to chase up the Inglewood/Longwood church records for Mary Ann's baptism. Sponsors were often close family members. You may find a record of the other children at the same time.
Debra :)
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Hi Chatters
Thanks so much for all the help and info.
I think that, and l am sure May Hem will agree, we need some time to chase up leads.
We will summarise the info we have and then put it her for all to look at and possibly add more
suggestions as to what to do and where to look.
Regards
Jamison
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Hi Chatters and Jamison
I'm still recovering from the big hole knocked in our family research and old records!
I am also very grateful to you all for your contributions.
I agree about the pause while I do some of my own homework.
The Hart/Corcoran problem is the switching and spelling of names.
My new contact from the Richard Hart/Harding family has suggested that I brief him on our Hart/Corcoran material to check if there is any pertinent material amongst their old family files which may be of help to us. He has a lot of documents dating back to the 1800s.
There has always been knowledge (but not openly discussed) in our family about the alleged Steve Hart connection, and real friendships with the LLoyds.
I will revert as soon as I have anything new to offer.
best regards
MayHem ( I think I caused it yesterday!)
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Hello May Hem
How are you ?
Have you been able to find any further info on their convict records etc...
Jamison
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Hi Jamison,
From memory, I think we had settled on the Patrick Hart who died in Parramatta Mental Asylum, buried in Rookwood cemetery, Sydney.
He seemed to be the most likely candidiate, but we could not be absolutely sure it was him because the DC details were vague.
The Steve Hart descendants have not been able to find any connection at all with our Hart ancestors.
Interestingly a book, Eureka, written by Peter Fitzsimmons, has just been released re the Eureka Stockade which occurred in the 1850s in the area where our Patrick Hart and his family were living. I wondered whether Patrick had been part of that rebellion.
I recall telling you that one of MAHs children, Charles Arthur, stayed with a Day family after he came out of the orphanage.
I think we are very distantly related because you have not only Hart but also Day connections.
Charles never discussed the family history matter with his own children, he was so young when put in the orphanage.
It was 100 years later before my uncles found his descendants and told them about their ancestry.
We have decided that all the Harts were living below subsistence level, very tragic marginal lives, unlike most new settlers who grasped the opportunities which abounded in those times. So we have relinquished pursuit of tracing all their whereabouts. We were not able to find MAH's grave or her mother's in Narrandera or surrounding cemeteries, so we assume they lie in unmarked graves. Elizabeth Owens and many of her children lie in unmarked graves also.
I did receive a copy of Elizabeth's marriage certificate from St Patrick's Church Albury.
If by chance I happen upon something new, I will share it with you.
best regards
May Hem
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May Hem
Thanks for the reply to my post.
Just a few question
- Who did Elizabeth marry ?
- Was it James middleton ?
Cheers
Jamison
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Hi Jamison
Sorry my mistake, you are quite correct, it was James Owens, I did not check my files beforehand.
Do you copies of all the certificates? Please advise.
I feel I know all those families as I have actually been on all those properties where they once lived.
I suspect some of them may have lived in tents, and worked between the stations.
Sorry I cannot add more, they all seem to have had very hard and short lives.
We ancestors are very lucky in comparison.
best regards
May Hem
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May Hem
Thanks for the quick response.
What certs. do you have ?
Maybe l can copy them for you - from what l have.
Cheers
Jamison
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Hi Jamison
Firstly, in my previous chat I typed 'ancestor' when I meant descendant, so my apologies.
Secondly, I decided to focus only on the paternal name ancestors; as I was collecting too much information about many other trees.
For this reason I have focused only on Mary Ann Hart, and noted her parents and her siblings.
I did make note of her sisters' marriages, and the children of those marriages, but I left further research at this point.
I have all MAHs certificates, and the DC of Margaret Corkens/Hart, the marriage certificates of Elizabeth and Ellen Mary Hart, and (maybe) the DC of Patrick Hart.
Thank you for your offer, I think I have all that is necessary for my own research. These early settlers were pioneers in new frontiers; I suspect their existence was not officially registered to any great extent - I found it all very sad, it would have been tough times for them.
I am spending a lot of painstaking time on my paternal gt.grandfather's family in Norfolk; I was given a lot of misinformation initially.
Have you completed your trees?
Cheers, Trish
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Hi
They seemed to have not had a good life as one would expect.
My tree is yet to be finished or do we ever finish it !!!
Could PM me Elizabeth`s mc and "Patrick`s" dc maybe l could do some chasing for info there.
But only if it is ok for you to PM them to me.
Regards
Jamison
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Hi Jamison
Sure, no problem, just give me a couple of days to retrieve those copies.
How do I PM them?
cheers, May Hem
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Do have the possibility to scan them - if you do then, l think, just send them as an attachment.
or
Send to them here as an attachment.
What ever is easier for you.
Cheers
Jamison
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Hi Trish, excuse me butting in. Could you please tell me how Mary Ann Hart died, I'm from the Lansley side. My Ggrandmother was EMMA ANN (Amy), 2nd child of Mary Ann Hart and Thomas Edward Lansley (2nd husband to MAH). I don't have much info I'm just starting my research. My g.grandmother was orphaned out when her mother died when she was 3 years old MAH. I don't know where she went, she surfaces in 1912 married, and had two children to Thomas Mullins, one being my grandfather whom she fostered out also, in 1917 when he was 5 his sister Alvina was 6mths. So sad. I just have this need to know what happened to Mary Ann Hart to start this sad chain of events. I noticed you mentioned you had all certificates for her and was hoping you could share her death information. Thank you in advance.
M.
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Dear M
You are not butting in.
See where it leads you.
Have fun with it !!!
Jamison
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Dear M and MayHem
Are you still out there !!!
just reconnecting again after some tme away.
Jamison
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Hi Jamison,
According to May Hem’s profile, May Hem was last active at RChat on
Last Active: Friday 16 November 12 09:24 GMT (UK)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=180722
According to M’s profile, M made just the one post, after joining RChat on 28 Nov 2012, and was last active at RChat on Last Active:
Friday 30 November 12 05:25 GMT (UK)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=200140
Cheers, JM
Dear M and MayHem
Are you still out there !!!
just reconnecting again after some tme away.
Jamison
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Hi,
My ggg grandmother is Elizabeth Middleton née Hart
Is anyone still on here ??
😊
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Hi Courtney,
I have descended from Mary Ann Hart, sister of Elizabeth Hart.
My searches have been mainly confined to Mary Ann Hart who was my gt grandmother.
I think Jamison would be of more help to you because from memory Elizabeth Middleton is his direct ancestor.
You will see his posts in this thread. He will be able to give you more information, I am sure.
Good luck and best wishes with your searches.
May Hem
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Hi Courtney,
I just did a google search for Elizabeth Hart Middleton, NSW and found an entry for for James Christopher Middleton on a website 'genealogist- specialist.com'. It seems James Middleton died and is buried in Goulburn, NSW. Try googling 'Elizabeth Hart Middleton, NSW' and scroll down and I think you may find the chats interesting.
best wishes,
Trish
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Thank you I have a lot of information on James and Elizabeth Middleton everything after they were married as my nan grew up around her aunts and uncles (James & Elizabeth's children) I am looking for proof that Elizabeth was actually apart of this family because for the last year I have thought she was the daughter of James hart and Margaret danaher but could never find any birth certificate, then I came across this post still no birth cert but I know she was born in Inglewood however her birth year on here does not match the fact that on her death cert it states she was married at 17 and she was married in 1876/8 I can't remember right now anyway the death certificate was filled out by her son so I really can't rule it out.
So I am interested in James Patrick hart and Margaret Corcoran if you have any that you are willing to share :)
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Yes, the James Hart and Margaret Danaher marriage lead us all to bark up the wrong tree.
Elizabeth's parents were James Patrick Hart, commonly Patrick Hart, and Margaret Corkens.
Mary Ann was born in Inglewood too from memory.
All my files are currently in storage, but I do have a marriage certificate for Elizabeth and James in Albury. I seem to remember that the marriage date was a little later than 1868. You can get a copy of their wedding certificate from the Catholic Church in Albury - they are very obliging.
I strongly recommend that you contact Jamison because he has descended from the same family as yourself.
Patrick Hart was a convict, imprisoned in Hobart. You can see his full family details on their website, and you can order a very handsome copy of that entry. Patrick was sentenced for beating up someone called Quinn whom I suspect may have been Red Kelly's father in law. Patrick seemed to be a model prisoner and earned his release upon which time he went to Victoria for the gold diggings.
He was not related to the Steve Hart of the Kelly Gang. Descendants of the Kelly/ Hart family have confirmed that fact for me. I have not been able to find any early information of Margaret Corkerns, she seemed to have always been present in her daughters' lives at the birth of their various children. Mary Ann died near Narrandera shortly after giving birth to the third child of her second marriage, and her mother Margaret Corkerns Hart died shortly after- from memory about 1892. We have not been successful in finding either of their graves in Narrandera or the nearby settlements. I think they led wretched lives, and it is very sad to read the scant story of their lives. :'(
I am sorry to be offering very general information - I have not been looking at family history for the past 3 years - I think it is time to do so again.
I will keep you in mind as I unearth more.
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Thank you so much my nan will love to read that.
We have been stuck on this family for such a long time.
My mum grew up hearing stories that she was realated to the hart family but she said her aunty was a great story teller (not much truth in any of her stories though lol)
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Hi Courtney 1986
I found the information you want -
information from www.portarthur.org.au - you can apply for transcriptions from the records.
Patrick Hart, convict, database No. 30908, Convict number 33869, Tasmanian convict record p. 14303, ex Tipperary, Ireland.
Arrived on Emily 2, 14 March 1844, aged 24 yrs of age, Roman Catholic, so birth date 1820.
He had been sentenced to 7 yrs jail, and granted Certificate of Pardon in 1851.
His crime was beating a man in company with a convict named Tierney.
His Convict details are Conduct Record CON33/60, Indent CON14/29, Description list CON 18/37.
His parents were John and Ellen, he has 2 brothers, John and Frank, and a sister, Mary Ellen.
You can apply for this transcript from the Port Arthur website.
He married Margaret Corkens/Corcoran, nee Macklin, in Victoria in 1853.
Initially lived in Inglewood, Victoria/Longwood area of Victoria.They next appearin Walbundrie which is a small place in the Albury District.
All 3 daughters married in that area - Mary Ann, b, 1856, m. Chas Toll at Mahonga Station, Ellen Mary b.1857 married John Owens and Elizabeth b. 1858 married James Middleton at St Patricks, RC Church, Albury.
Margaret Hart next appears around Urana and the Narrandera area where her daughters were living.Margaret died in 1891 and is buried in an unmarked grave in Narrandera cemetery.
We think Patrick died in 1895 in the hospital for the insane at Rydalmere, Sydney and is buried in Rookwood cemetery.
Mary Ann died in 1890 from complications after childbirth. She also lies in an unmarked grave in Narrandera area.
Ellen Mary had 12 children and died in 1903 from complications during childbirth - she and her twins are buried in an unmarked grave near Whitton, near Leeton NSW.
Elizabeth had 6 children and we have no details of her whereabouts. You may be able to provide that detail for us.
The Hart story is one of poverty and hardship. :'( Sorry.
I hope all this information sheds some light for your family history.
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Patrick's records are here on Tas Archives:
Conduct Record:
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON33-1-60,212,84,F,60
He was a 3rd Class probation pass holder and assigned to work on the gang at Saltwater Creek (Saltwater River) from arrival until Oct 1845.
http://www.heritage.tas.gov.au/media/pdf/convict_sites/Coal%20Mines.pdf
He was then assigned to work for a Mr TRIFFETT at ? (I can't decipher this place name), and T. C. MARZETTI at Hamilton (this is probably Thomas Charles Hugh MARZETTI). He was very well behaved; his conduct record is very sparse.
Ticket of Leave 27 June 1848
Recommended for a conditional pardon 5 Oct 1848
Conditional Pardon approved 5 Feb 1850
You might want to read how the probation system worked
http://www.utas.edu.au/library/companion_to_tasmanian_history/P/Probation%20system.htm
Description List:
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON18-1-37,183,140,F,60
Indent:
Page 1 http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON14-1-29,325,36,F,60
Page 2 http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON14-1-29,325,37,F,52
Tas Archives search homepage:
http://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/?
Debra :)
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Thank you, Dundee - expanding the information re Patrick will give Courtney 1986 the the full picture.
I did enquire about the 3 Certificates mentioned in Remarks - I was hoping these elaborated on the siblings and parents. The very helpful person at Port Arthur archives said these certificates would have related to Patrick's jail and conduct. :D
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Thank you so much :)
I will get the full details of the children of Elizabeth and James middleton from memory Elizabeth died in Sydney from an accidental fall down the stairs there are coroners reports online for this but when I get home tonight I will send more detail.
Thanks again
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Hello Courtney1986
I`m still here - just by chance of googling l came across my old posting and there you were.
Actually, l descend from Ellen Mary Hart.
Drop me a line when you have the time.
Jamison
-
Email removed
-
Hi there,
May I please suggest you edit your post to remove your email address.
http://www.rootschat.com/help/posting_guide.php
Cheers, JM
-
Chatters
Wanting to thank those who have helped with info - much appreciated !!!
One can never say enough thanks for being helped out with info.
Jamison
-
Courtney1986
Are you still out there !!!
Looking forward to hearing from you when you have the time.
Jamison
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Hi Jamison,
Sorry it has been a year i just realised :/ life took over and have not had time to sit and work on the family tree for some time...
however I am back to it and on a mission to try and work out exactly where Elizabeth Middleton nee Hart came from ...
I have got details on the kids if you still needed them... and have just last week found out how James Patrick lost his arm which was interesting.
Not sure if i mentioned it before but I am from Elizabeth Middleton Ellen Mary's sister (not mother lol)
-
On another note has any got proof of which Margaret married Patrick Hart or their deaths?
I have almost given up... I can't find a birth for my Elizabeth Hart, a marriage for Patrick and Margaret (except Danaher) or deaths for margaret and patrick, I read that he is in and out of trouble with the law but can't find any records of these, It is they lived without existing, I know they had no money but their has to be a way to prove the realation???????
GOING CRAZY over this ???
-
hi, As previously mentioned in my posts I have been researching the parents of Elizabeth Hart whom I believed to be Patrick (or James Patrick ) Hart and Margaret Corcoran who was transported to Van Diemens Land on the Blackfriar. However on researching her further I found that she married a Robert Ruck in 1852 in Tasmania. Link below.
https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/all/search/results?qu=margaret&qu=ruck
Can anyone confirm who the mother of Elizabeth Hart was?
-
Courtney1986
Hope all is well !!!
How far have you got in your research - would like to help if possible.
Do you have Elizabeth's death cert. and do you know how many children She had etc...
Cheers
Jamison
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Hi Jamieson,
I am Courtney86 grandmother, Elizabeth Middleton nee Hart is my great grandmother.
I have her marriage certificate but unfortunately it does not show her parents names. It states that she was married James Middleton at the home of a Mr Rudd at Colombo Plains It shows her place of residence at Colombo. I have contacted the Catholic Church at Wagga Wagga and they at searching their archives to see if there were further details lodged with them. She married 11/8/1878
I also have her death certificate. Elizabeth died on 6/3/1920 following a fall down stairs. An inquest was held and the cause of death ruled accidental.
Elizabeth and James ( some of the births were registered as Christopher Middleton) had 8 children
James P, Margaret, Ellen, Elizabeth (my grandmother) Sarah, Martha, James, Joseph.
Parents on death certificate shown as James Patrick Hart and Mother as Margaret -
My problem is that as I have previously stated that Margaret Corcoran who was sent to Van Diemens Land cannot be the mother of Eliabeth. I am doing a Genealogy Diploma with Tasmania Uni
so need to double check my information.Thanks for your offer to help.
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Hi Beverley
Thanks for getting back to me.
My EMH and your EH are sisters along with MAH being the eldest.
My EMH was the youngest of the three (to live until adulthood) if ages are to be taken for granted.
MAH birth cert mentions 1 child living and 1 dead - can't them either.
Your EH was a witness to my EMH marriage to John Owens.
What are the chances of 2 Margaret Corcorans in the 1850's
Can't find my EMH's birth either.
This leads me to think that either not registered or under a different last name.
That would not be the first time for me that this has happened.
Also l have been chasing up the Ruck family for a time line of some kind.
Cheers
Jamison
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Hi, Thanks for the information. I note that Margaret Hart died at Narrandera in 1891. My grandmother talked about these areas. Her father worked on the Railway as a Dam Sinker. Do you have a copy of Margaret Hart's death certificate? If not I will send for a transcript and see if we can get more information that way. Do you have a copy of any of the children's birth certificates verifying that James Patrick Hart or Patrick Hart as he seems to go by was the father of this family.
Sorry if I appear to be starting at the very beginning but need to get it clear in my head. Also I don't believe Richard Hart was Patrick Harts' brother based on research of Richard.
Thanks for all you help and the info provided.
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Hi Beverley
I don not have the official death cert but a transcription from long ago - her parents are mentioned.
But l am thinking of getting a certified copy of one.
I'll be away this weekend but l will send info from the transcript next week.
Would that be ok.
I also do not think that Richard and Patrick Hart are brothers - Patrick's convict records mention his parents and siblings.
Regards
Jamison
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Hi Jamison,
I have today sent for the death certificate of Margaret Hart who died at Narrandera in 1891. I asked for it to be emailed to me. Do you know if anyone has death certificates for any of the other children, they may give us some more information, I had no luck with the Catholic Church at Wagga Wagga they could not find any record of the marriage. This side of my family are much harder to trace than my paternal side..Very frustrating. I had a thought that maybe Margaret was not a convict. The Ruck family in Van Diemens Land were having children in the same years as our family in Vctoria.
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Hi Beverly
Thanks for the reply.
I will have to pull out all that l have on the Harts (i.e Certs etc...)
As they are Irish it will be harder to trace them in Ireland.
The Margaret who married a Ruck can't be discarded yet.
As we can't find our two EMH and EH birth dates so far.
Working on the Ruck time line to eliminate this family.
Have you come across any children born to the Rucks (Robert and Margaret) between 1856 and 1861 in Victoria - as l have before in Tassie and after in Vic.
Cheers
Jamison
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Hi there,
Has anyone considered and/or eliminated the following :
Vic BDM online index:
RUCK Margt
Death 1881
Father's name Cochram, Thos
Mother's name Margaret
Reg. no 7414
RUCK Robt Bennett
Death 1891
Parents Unknown
Reg. no 2722
http://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/home/family+history/search+your+family+history/
and
ADD
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=373754.0 1881 DC could be helpful. :)
JM
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Hi all frustrated Hart researchers.
The mystery re Patrick and Margaret Hart continues..
Margaret Corcoran married Robert Ruck in Tasmania 1852.
They two girls Mary Louisa born 1833 and Anne born 1856/1857
Robert died 1891 parents unkown Victoria
Margaret died 1881 parents Thomas ?Cohrane and Margaret
On searching the Vict. marriage records I have a Patrick Hart marrying a Margaret Corkens/Corcoran nee Macklin in Vict. in 1853 for whatever this info I worth.
regards
Bev
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Hi there Bev,
Re http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=758672.0
I am assuming you have the actual images of both those Vic BDM deaths.
May I please ask:
:) Are you eliminating the Margaret who died 1881 in Victoria or the Margaret who died 1891 in NSW as the mum of your Elizabeth? (Or have I misunderstood :D :D :-\ :-\ )
And
:) Are you eliminating or confirming the couple who married in Tasmania in 1852 as parents for your Elizabeth?
JM
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Hi, I have sent for the death certificate of Margaret who died in Narrandera in 1891 as I believe she is the most likely mother of Elizabeth. I do know from living with my Grandmother that she often spoke of the family being in the county areas.
I do not have any Victoria bdm only info I have got from their site. The Margaret who died in 1881 I believe to be Margaret Ruck.
sorry it I have confused you probably because I am confused myself.
Cheers
bev
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On searching the Vict. marriage records I have a Patrick Hart marrying a Margaret Corkens/Corcoran nee Macklin in Vict. in 1853 for whatever this info I worth.
I have searched both my own resources and the online BDM and I can't see this marriage. Perhaps you could post the registration number please.
All I can see is a Patrick HART marrying a Margaret DANAHER in 1856 Reg#3611
There are five HART marriages in Victoria in 1853 and none of them for a Patrick to a Margaret. I do miss things but have searched my resource thoroughly.
Cando
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Hi Cando,
Got my paperwork mixed up, you are correct there is no marriage, my humblest apologies,
Cheers Bev
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No need to apologise. I thought there had a break through. Easily enough done ;D We've all done it at one time or another.
I find it odd that I can't find a death reg for the deceased child noted on Mary's birth certificate however it was possibly prior to civil reg in Vic. If Patrick and Margaret had married there may be a parish record 'somewhere'. Unfortunately not all churches complied with the legislation which required them to forward parish records to the Melbourne Registry.
Cando
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Hi Cando,
I have today emailed the catholic church in Albury to see if they have any record of the marriage of my great grandmother Elizabeth Hart to James Middleton the marriage certificate states that she was living with her parents at the time of the marriage.i have been told that paperwork had to be lodged at the Church . hopefully if they do have anything the parents names maybe on it.
Bev
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Hi fellow Hart researchers,,
Have today received a copy of Margaret Hart's Death Certificate which was filled out by her daughter
Ellen Mary Owens who was aged 31 years and Elizabeth was 34. Her parents are shown as Patrick Corking and mother Margaret Macklin. It states her husband was James Hart.
This solves a little bit of the puzzle as to her name.
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Hi there,
Does it give you where she was born, and how long in the colonies, and when/where married? What was her usual address? Where buried?
JM
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Hi Majm
Have endeavoured to attach a copy of the Death Certificate, hope it worked. The only problem I have with the details i the age shown on death, does not equate to the ages of the children Let me know if you get the attachment.
Moderator Comment: Document unattached, as personal details were also included.
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Hi there,
May I please urge you to unattach the document, as there's details on page 2 that I am sure you would want to be kept private.
I will see if my offline NSW resources can help further :) with the info on the first page. :D
PS I see it has already been downloaded 3 times. I can account for only 1 of those. :-\ I took a snip of the first page. I did not save the two page document.
JM :)
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My transcription 10031/1891
(Line Number) 75 (in the original register)
Date and Place of Death : November 14, 1891, Narrandera.
Name and occupation : Margaret HART, No occupation
Sex and age : Female 83 years
Cause of Death: Senility
Duration of last illness : not stated
Medical attendant; when he last saw deceased : J Mitchell, October 7, 1891
Name and occupation of father : Patrick CORKING, no known
Name and maiden surname of mother : Margaret MACKLIN
Informant: certified by Ellen Mary OWENS, daughter, Bywya via Whitton
Particulars of Registration: L S Donaldson, December 7, 1891, Narrandera
When and where buried : name of undertaker November 15, 1891, Narrandera, J Charlton
Name and religion of Minister and names of witnesses of burial : T J Carroll, Geo Doyle, John Campbell
Where born and how long in the Australian Colonies or States : Ireland, not known
Place of marriage, age and to whom : not known, not known, James HART
Children of marriage: Elizabeth 34, Ellen Mary 31, living; 1 female deceased,
Now it is noted as downloaded six times :-\
JM
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Hi Majm
How do I unattach. Not very good at this.
Bev
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;D
Firstly, don't panic.
Then go back to your post that includes the attachment. ADD : click on the modify button in that post.
Then look just below where you can see that you attached it.
Then unattach.
Sorry, but there's no moderator around at the moment to help you, and I am not good at explaining.
JM
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Thanks for the help, hope I have unattached correctly.
Cheers Bev
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I will send message to a volunteer moderator to check.
JM
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Welcome to RootsChat Bev, can not see any attachement :)
Regards
Sarah
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HI has anyone had any luck with finding info on James Patrick Hart. I have had contact with one of Mary Anne's grandson but he has no info on when and where James Patrick died. If I could break through this brick wall I would be elated.