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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Pembrokeshire => Topic started by: robsdad on Tuesday 24 May 11 21:09 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
I wonder if anyone can help decipher a name for me.
On 1851 for Strencham Worcs. under the family of William Bell there appears what seems like a mother in law age 58 from Pembrokeshire ( Elizabeths mother ).
It is transcribed by An*****y as Catherine Hemins but I cannot locate her 'daughter' Elizabeth age 40 and born Pembrokeshire c. 1811 ( I've tried Hemmings etc ) ,
Can anyone offer any suggestions please.
regards
robsdad
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On FindMyPast, the family is this:
Reference HO107, Piece 2045. Folio 74, Page 9
Lower Strensham, Strensham. Worcestershire
Ball, William Head M 25 Bricklayer b Strensham
Ball, Elizabeth Wife F 40 b Pembrokeshire, Wales
Ball, Joseph C Son M 12 Errand Boy b Stellarton, Worcestershire
Ball, Emily Elizabeth Daughter F 10 b St Peters, Worcestershire
Ball, Emily Daughter F 8 b Strensham
Ball, Edward Son M 5 b Strensham
Hemers, Catherine Mother-in-Law F 58 b Pembrokeshire, Wales
However, the original is very faint!
Searching FreeBMD for births in Pershore district (the registration district that includes Strensham) shows these:
March qtr 1843 Pershore Vol 18, Page 446
Bell, Louisa
March qtr 1844 Pershore Vol 18, Page 469
Bell, Emily
September qtr 1846 Pershire Vol 18, Page 433
Bell, Edward
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Hi Robsdad, on The Genealogist website it's transcribed as Hemus and I must say that's how I read the original. But I haven't been able to find a Bell/Hemus marriage to confirm it sadly so that's no help really!
Heather
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Hi
FindMyPast have it as Hemers, doesn't look like that though, does look more like Hemins
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If its any help, Joseph Charles birth is in WOrcester:
September qtr 1838
Worcester district Vol 18, Page 471
Bell, Joseph Charles
The only likely marriage I can find on FreeBMD is:
September qtr 1838
Worcester district Vol 18, Page 523
Bell, William
+ and on the same page +
Hall, Elizabeth
Birlingham, Eliza
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The 1841 census is even worse! FindMyPast has it as a free view.
Reference HO107, 1206, 20/5, 4
Village, Strensham
Bell, Frances F 65
Bell, William M 20 born in county
Bell, Elizabeth F 30
Bell, Joseph M 2 born in county
Bell, Frances F 11 months born in county
Banister, Joshua M 4
A more realistic age for William, as Joseph C would have been born when he was 18.
Using the age on the 1851 census would put William's age at 13?!
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To me it looks rather more like Hemus.
There is a death of a Catherine Hemus aged 82, 3rd q 1873, Pershore 6c 181 ???
She is in Pershore in 1871, RG 10 / 3064 / 67 / 12. The name looks like Hemus (transcribed as Hennes on FindMyPast)
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Yes I definitely think it's Hemus. What looks like a dot in the surname is the beginning of the first stroke of the U, the dot over the i in Catherine is much higher.
Still can't find a marriage though :-\
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Looking at the distribution of the surname HEMUS in 1841, it would appear to be centralisedin Worcestershire, and especially the Pershore district.
The only Catherine that matches up is here:
Reference HO107, Piece 360, Book/Folio 27, Page 14
Park House, Twyning, Gloucester
Proctor, Michael M 68 Yeoman
Proctor, Mary F 65
Drinkwater, Ann F 46 Housekeeper
Barnes, Sarah F 18 FS
Hemus, Joseph M 53 Liv Husbandry (Livestock?)
Hemus, Catherine F 49 FS
Price, Philip M 19 MS
Only problem is that all are born in county (Gloucestershire)?
So it looks likely that Catherinr married a Mr Hemus in, or around, Worcestershire?
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Hi KGarrad, Heather, groom & JenB,
Many thanks for your suggestions and inputs.
It looks as if I might be able to make some headway as a direct result of your time and efforts.
Yes Hemus looks favourite and she is on 1851 as formally farmers wife ( 1841 ).
The Pershore death looks relevant also.
Joseph C Bell married a Charlotte Drinkwater and I notice that Drinkwater is listed on the 1841 that was supplied.
I'm truly indebted to you all for the info. and am sorry for the delay in my responce.
regards to you all,
robsdad
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Interesting coincidence of surname and birthplace?
1861 census
RG 9 / 2106 / 56 / 11
Pershore
Peter Hemus, head, m, 43, colt breaker, Pembrokeshire, Angle
1851 census
HO 107 / 2045 / 225 / 21
High Street Pershore
Peter Axton Hemus, head, widower, 32, colt breaker, Wales Pembrokeshire
And on Family Search
Baptism, at Angle, Pembrokeshire, 11th August 1822, Caroline Hemus, parents Joseph & Catherine Hemus.
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IMHO, Elizabeth Hemus aged 40 in 1851 is most lightly a widow at her mrge to William Ba(e)ll, ??? they married at all, and where not just living as H&W by 1851.
Therefore I believe Elizabeth was not baptised as a Hemus in Pembrokeshire but under some other surname. Thus making Caroline Hemus the mother of Elizabeth’s 1st husband whom she would have mrd in circa 1831, but not in Pembrokeshire. The birth certificate of Joseph or Emily would immediately clarify my very humble opinion.
Whilst the baptism of Caroline is confirmed at Angle, this is the only Hemus baptism there, the baptism of Peter does not currently appear in all the wide surrounding parishes of Pembrokeshire.
The mrge of Peter Axton Hemus in 1839 in Gloucester Reg District may confirm any relationship to Caroline through the father shown on the certificate.
I would also suggest that the Hemus family of Abergavenny area should not be overlooked, an important transit location then, as today on my travels between Pembrokeshire and the Worcestershire area of your research and my far off youth.
If no one else has done it before me I will check out the Hemus surname in the early Angle registers and let you know any outcome.
Rgds
Orielbenfro
ORIEL a welsh window on a surname
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Hi JenB and Orielbenfro,
Many thanks Jen for the info. re Peter in Pershore.
Also thanks Orielbenfro for your theory re Elizabeth 'Wife' of William Bell. Always assumed that his age 25 on 1851 should have read 35 as 1841 gives 20-24 range.
Many thanks, your help and take on the problem greatly appreciated.
regards
robsdad
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Hi all,
Catherine Hemus appears on 1851 in Strensham Worcestershire age 58 and mother in law of William Bell ( Her daughter Elizabeth also appears )
Mother and daughter both born Pembroke.
Catherine died Q3 1873 ( 82 ) reg. in Pershore Worcs. and also a Joseph Hemus died Q3 1857 ( no age ) in Pershore. I can find no sign of Catherine '41 '61 or '71
IGI lists a Caroline Hemus 11.08.1822 in Angle Pembroke f. Joseph mo. Catherine but has no record of an Elizabeth ( William Bells 'wife' ) or a marriage of parents Joseph & Catherine.
Any help in locating Elizabeth's birth details and/or Joseph & Catherine's marriage would be greatly appreciated.
regards,
robsdad
Moderator Comment: Topics merged to avoid duplication
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Hi robsdad :)
Your other thread on Catherine probably shows them in Gloucestershire on 1841:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,534494.0.html
Modified - topics merged :)
Kind Regards
Morgan
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Hi
Appologies for duplication, my filing system is not all that it should be.
Have been off on another 'tack' since my first post.
regards
robsdad
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Today I went up to the Pembroke Record Office to double checke the 1822 Caroline Hemus baptism and eventually decided that the surname shown is that written in the Baptism Register.
No matter what I tried and searched there is no reference to the surname ‘Hemus’ that I can find in Pembrokeshire .
Remembering the reference of a Peter Axton Hemus in 1851 I then went to search for his baptism, again nothing could be found.
I then found a reference to the baptism of a Catherine Axton dau of Thomas & Elizabeth Axton a farmer of Studdach, Angle who was baptised 07 Aug 1836 at Angle. Thomas Axton of Angle mrd Elizabeth Sinnett of Angle at Warren parish church 12 July 1835.
This, whilst a possible interesting connection between Hemus and Axton families did not really tell me much.
So I had noted that Joseph Hemus was a farmer at the baptism of Caroline, now to me Farmer is normally a pretty settled family occupation and yet we only have one possible baptism to equate to Joseph and Catherine, to me this was not right.
I then turned to the L.T.A’s of Angle and in 1822 Joseph Hemus resides at Hardings Hill Angle, he is still there in 1823, but has left the district by 1824.
I then decided to follow him back by year and I note the following ;
1822 Hardings Hill Joseph Hemus
1821 Hardings Hill Joseph Heimus
1820 Hardings Hill Joseph Hemus
1819 Hardings Hill Joseph Hemus
1818 Hardings Hill Joseph Hemus
1817 Hardings Hill Joseph Hemas
1816 Hardings Hill Joseph Amos
1815 Hardings Hill Joseph Amos
1814 Hardings Hill Joseph Amos
1813 Hardings Hill Joseph Amos
Joseph entered the village in 1813 and it is now quite clear that there was a phonetic corruption of his surname post 1816. This got me to thinking………. And I found ;
Peter Axton Amos was baptised at Angle in 1815, thus Caroline Hemus (1822 reference) and Peter Amos (1851 census) are siblings.
Whether you agree with my findings I will leave to you, but if you verbally pronounce “Hemus” as “Heymos”, I know what I think.
I have been unable to find any reference to the Amos family in Pembrokeshire, however I do note the surname is extensive in the village of Pembrey Carms around the time of your interest.
Rgds
Orielbenfro
ORIEL a welsh window on a surname
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Hi,
Thanks for the wealth of information you supplied and for your super detective work.
What is the LTA list, is it related to agriculture ?
I notice from IGI that a Mary Joseph 1812 also appears and I mistakenly thought we had discovered Catherine's maiden name until looking further at the female names and found the father's name being taken also.
Is that a normal case in Wales for the girls ? No surname seems to appear on IGI.
We seem no further forward with Catherine's name but Elizabeth 1811 ( William Bell's wife ) who started all this looks likely to be a Amos/Hemus although no record on IGI.
Maybe I have to push the boat out and obtain one of the kids b. cert.
Kind regards and many thanks,
robsdad
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L.T.A. = Land Tax Assessments which are normally circa 1780 to circa 1833 by hundred, and give Parish. Location, Occupier(Head of Household), Land Owner, and tax paid, recommend you read the likes of "Village Records" by John West ISBN 0 85033 44 6.
Far too many errors/mis-information in the IGI, appears to me to be even more errors under the new IGI Beta progamme, so I make very little if any use of it, the vast majority, if not all my supplied info comes from original Parish Records researched at the Record Office. Anything I supply that is not from original sources comes with a health warning.
I had no need at the time to check 1812 for any any baptism in pursurance of an answer, because it appears that Joseph and Catherine do not arrive in the parish until 1813, however I will double check to see if there is a mention of Mary Joseph Amos being baptised at Angle in 1812 on my next visit. In fact it may be better to search say 1805 to 1813 for any Amos baptism in the village.
Sorry do not understand the question about whats normal for girls in Wales.
Of course you where far to polite to point out my error ~ parents of course are Joseph & Catherine not Joseph and Elizabeth. (Previous post corrected)
Rgds
Orielbenfro
ORIEL a welsh window on a surname
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Hi
Many thanks for your explanation re. LTA, my thoughts last night only came up with Landlords/Tenants Agreements. I will certainly make a point of reading Village Record's as you suggest.
Yes errors are found on IGI but as a first port of call I find it useful.- ( Peter Axton is shown only as Peter & Mary Joseph is listed as if Joseph is her surname ) . Other Mary Josephs appear with different surnames but in all cases their father's fist names are Joseph. Hope you are following this. That led me to think that it was normal for girls in Wales to take their father's first name in addition to their given name. But maybe this is a transcription error, as it seems to be the case with lots of children with surnames Joseph. Take a look.
Thanks for the offer to search 1805-1813 I would be most grateful.
regards,
robsdad
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[quote author=Orielbenfro link=topic=557063.msg4099731#
Hi,
Re Phonetic problem with Amos becoming Hemus.
I can't help thinking it was the other way round and Joseph traveling to Pembroke c. 18?? his name was interpreted as Amos on the LTA which then reverted to Hemus later.
It appears from IGI ( sorry for introducing it again ) that Hemus was almost certainly from Worcestershire, and that accounts for the derth of Amos and Hemus in Wales and in particular Pembroke. or am I assuming too much ?
regards
robsdad
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Hi again,
I have in the last hour found Joseph Hemus on 1851 living with his daughter Mary ( Who IGI have incorrectly named Mary Joseph ) and her husband Joseph Kendall who she married in 1838 in Worcs. They are in Aston Birmingham - Great Lister Street.
J.H. was born in Hanbury Worcs. in 1786 f. John mo. Mary. So he did indeed travel to Pembroke for some reason but alas this still does not link him definitely to Elizabeth ( 1811 ).
Hope this is helpful if you pursue the pre 1813 records as you very kindly intimated you would do.
Kind regards
robsdad.
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There are several names mentioned in the above discussion that occur in my family tree. Peter Axton, a farmer at Angle, Pembs, was a direct ancestor of mine. His wife was named Elizabeth. Their eldest child was named Thomas Peter Axton. Thomas had a son, by Margaret Sinnett, who they named John Thomas Axton. John married secondly Harriet Leah Bell, whose father was named Hyrum. Thomas and his descendants, and their spouses, all became Mormons and emigrated to Utah. It seemed that there was a very active Mormon cell in Pembrokeshire and it would be interesting to find out more about it and the relationships that resulted.
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It is my contention that Catherine F., the wife of Joseph M. HEMUS/AMOS, was born at Angle about 1792, a daughter of Peter and Elizabeth AXTON. It is expected that Joseph and Catherine would have married before 1810, when their daughter, also named Elizabeth, was born at Angle. She was the eldest of three children known to have been born there - the others being Peter Axton (1815) and Caroline (1822). So Peter and Elizabeth HEMUS/AMOS would have been named after their AXTON grandparents.