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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: 7igerby7he7ail on Saturday 24 September 11 10:31 BST (UK)
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While searching in a friend's tree, I discovered a dark secret which I cannot in all honesty reveal to her. [She doesn't have a computer and is not internet savvy so is unlikeley to read this]
I always thought it curious that her grandmother's youngest child was born when she was 52. I searched the certs etc and found out that my friend's mum had him out of wedlock. He was therefore her half-brother who she always believed to be her uncle. Father's name on cert is not the same as her father.
Scenario, her grandparents must have adopted him as far as everyone must have known, he was the youngest child.
I cannot bring myself to reveal this secret, as they say ignorance is bliss. Although her tree wont exactly be 'correct'. I will leave that for others to find out.
She has paid for research [certs etc]
Am I right in doing this?
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This will come back to haunt you if she ever finds out and finds out that you knew and didn't tell her. Only you can decide whether its better that she doesn't know or she does.
I found a similar problem last year - that my mother's brother was only her half brother. ...and before anyone asks, no, I didn't tell her!
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If she asked you to research her tree, haven't you an obligation to tell her what you've found? - and isn't that half the fun of tree research? - finding the 'dark secrets'?
It isn't her fault and it certainly brings no shame to her so . . .?? Why not :-\ :-\
She has paid for research [certs etc]
Isn't this what she's paid for??
Wiggy - possessor of dark secrets in the family! ;) ;) part of the fun!
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It is well nigh impossible to have a child naturally at 52 - I think the oldest confirmed British mother was 53. Hasn't she wondered about this?
I would explore with her how she feels about skeletons and black sheep (without being specific), because you don't know what else she/you will find. Also if anyone else looks at your research, they will probably question this birth and discover the truth and that will cast doubt in their minds on the rest of your research. You could tell your friend that he was adopted without saying who his birth parents were and say "the records are closed for 100 years" or "adoptions weren't formalised at that time" or something similar.
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Only you can decide, but personally I would tell your friend the truth.
Turn it on its head - if the situations were reversed, how would you feel if a friend didn't reveal something to you?
You never know, she might already know or suspect.........
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I would probably take a leaf out of the medium Lisa Williams' book, ... and ask your friend "Do you want to know everything?"
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How many times in the old days, their sister was their mother, and they thought Grannie was their Mum.
My twin cousins bn 1944, found out when their Mum died, my Auntie Mary, that they were adopted.
Mary's sister had the twins with a G.I, left them with Mary at 3 months old, went to the shop for ciggies and never came back.
The babies were never rego'd, so Mary & my Uncle Davie did that.
Imagine the shock for the girls?
No trace ever of their natural mother.
Tinam
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Just a thought. If she has paid for the research including certificates, are you going to hand these over to her when you have finished? If she then looks at them, she will discover it for herself and will probably ask why you hadn't told her.
Jan
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What if she had used a 'professional' to do her tree. They would have in all probability told her that they had found out something odd and does she want to know.
Seriously, I used a professional a few months ago as I had a brick wall which was nigh on impossible to sort out from London, so contacted a lovely lady (university degrees etc. a Dr. no less!!!) and told her what I knew, which was very little. She came back to me a few days later and said I have found him (my g.grandfather) but the story of his family is not pleasant reading, do you want to know.
Well I was so excited, I truly did not care about the facts of the 'murder' and on receiving all the information I was just pleased to finally find out the truth and from this have found a large & thriving new family in Liverpool.
I know in your circumstances it is a little closer to home being her mother, but as said before, it is highly likely that there had been murmurings in the family when she was younger and she probably has an inkling anyway.
Just ask her if she wants a warts and all research, and explain that it is often the case that some not to happy things can be found.
Good luck
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I would be inclined to tell her. I've found 'black sheep' when investigating my friend's trees, and they've always taken the news far better than I thought they would :)
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It is well nigh impossible to have a child naturally at 52 - I think the oldest confirmed British mother was 53. Hasn't she wondered about this?
My g.gran had a child at 50, in 1893, and it was definitely hers, my gran was 10 at the time her brother was born, so could verify for the fact that her mother was pregnant and gave birth. It couldn't have been a child of the elder half sisters in any case, as they were pregnant themselves around the same time.
Lizzie
ps. I think it must run in families, I could still have had a child up to about 56 or so, and had the hormone tests to prove it when the docs were checking to make sure nothing sinister was going on.
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It wasn't impossible for women to have babies over 50, but it's always wise to be suspicious, because it was common for the illegitimate children of daughters to be passed off as the children of the mothers. Rather easier to get away with in those days, because the clothing of older women tended to be less 'figure hugging' than it is now, and it wasn't unusual for younger women to leave home for long periods when they entered domestic service.
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I would tell your friend, it's part and parcel of the research. What they do about it or choose to believe or not is entirely up to them. At least it may be better to come from you. We have to be prepared for it. A cousin of mother's did n't find out untill he got married, his wife found it out! It was common knowledge amongst the villagers though! He was the son of the local medical professional.
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I am seeing her tomorrow and told her to be prepared for a surprise. Apart from all that I have traced her ancestry back to 1820 so far. With lots of census records and each branch and generation were 'prolific'.
I will let you all know how it all pans out.
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I think everyone is hoping for a dark secret to be honest when they start digging! Tell her, but obviously be as tactful as you can. She'll find out anyway from the research you have done.
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Father's name on cert is not the same as her father
So if the fathers name is on this birth certificate - was he there to register the birth with the mother? or where they married?
You can't name the father unless he is there at the registering of the birth or the couple are married.
Just thinking that if there is a marriage certificate how are you going to cover up her mother was married before if that is the case?
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I have laid it all before her. She said she always had her suspicions.
Then she told me she once met a Mr ********, [the name on the birth cert] who was introduced as a friend of her father!, if it was the same one she said she will never know.
Mr.******** [which is very uncommon name BTW] could be one I found on the 1911 census, age 10 which make about right for the date of the birth cert.
My friend has asked me to investigate further!. She is quite excited about finding out her mother's murky past [her words]. Her mother apparently was a 'butter wouldn't melt' kind of person.
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Glad it has worked out well. I think we all hope that we will find a skeleton in the closet somewhere in our tree. ;D ;D ;D
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I think there's a warning to us all here. If anyone asks you to research their family, just check that they want to know everything, before you start ::)
Glad it all worked out well
Linda
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Good on you - I bet that's why she asked you to do it in the first place!!
Wiggy :)
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I have a feeling she knew the truth
Anyhow, The mysterious Mr*******.
He of the very uncommon name [what a bit of luck]
As I said, got him in the 1911 census along with parents and four siblings, his parents in the 1901. His father in the 1891 and 1881. What could be his g'parents in the 1881, 1871 and 1861 . According to info in census, possible grandfather was an Aussie b circa 1835.
Now for some deeper research.....watch this space
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I'm so enjoying your thread, I can't wait, it's so exciting, better that the telly anyday ;D
Best of luck !
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Hi
I think that you have done the right thing by telling her the truth, if a person is interested in where they came from they have right to know everything warts and all.
I have had several similar situation's probably like most people doing our family history,
The 1st I found was that my mother never married her first husband, he was already married and left a wife and child and ran off with my mother, I then had to tell my half brother that he had an half brother somewhere.
The 2nd I found that my dad who had been married three times lastly to my mom was never divorced from his first wife
The 3rd I found was that my mom's sister gave birth to a child which was raised has there sister.
Margp
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Makes life interesting doesn't it!! ;)
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It sure does, but who are we to judge it is all totally acceptable these days, accept for bigamy, but he did go through the procedure of getting a divorce, I have the records very interesting reading, but no decree absolute was issued, but I think he was aware of this as he tagged Walter on to his name.
Margp
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Divorce was very expensive in the past, and the danger of getting caught was quite slim.
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On the divorce papers they were stamped Poor Person so there must have been sort of legal aid in 1919
Margp
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In her tree, and many other's including, but not confirmed my own. The 19th century censuses seem to show that there were a lot of children apparently born to mothers in their mid to late 40s, when there was a young unmarried daughter in the household. I believe that many children of young unmarried daughters were registered and brought up as siblings to their own mother, and silence was kept.
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On the divorce papers they were stamped Poor Person so there must have been sort of legal aid in 1919
Margp
This makes interesting reading......
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-508936/The-wife-changed-history--asking-divorce.html
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I found out, as an adult, that one of my aunts wasn't married to my uncle, but that's as far as it went, although I had overheard other aunts saying about her "Well, of course, she can't have any children". I don't know if that meant she couldn't physically have children, or she couldn't because she wasn't married. I know they wanted to adopt me, but naturally my mum wouldn't give up her first born and only daughter but I did stay with them often and really loved going to their house.
Years later, when my mum's mind was going a little, she suddenly came out with the whole story and told me my uncle's real surname (they had used my aunt's middle name which was her mother's maiden name as their surname) and the fact that he had left a wife and 2 sons and had lived only a few doors from them. I've now traced his wife and sons (only on paper), as well as finding his birth and finding him on 1911 census.
I don't suppose there was ever any option of getting a divorce in the 1930s, or perhaps the wife wouldn't divorce my uncle.
Lizzie
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My first mother-in-law was one of these children with an indeterminate father, brought up as her mother's sister. She knew but was desperate (as were the whole family of her generations) to keep it secret. So imagine shock / horror when unknowing daughter married family history hobbyist! (me). I was told so many lies I am still sorting them out, I don't know if she knew who her father was, but I kept hoping something would be left when she died, but her daughter and I were divorced by then so I don't know (but I suspect there was something),
anyway the point of this ramble is that her grand-daughter (my daughter) interested in family history (though not with my addiction) is somewhat put out that she is unlikely to ever know who one of her grandfathers is.
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There are secrets in al our trees I suppose, the further we go back or expand.
Lots of cousin marriages of course, not surprising considering they never moved far in the days of yore.
I discovered that one of my ancestors married his niece.
That one of my great uncles lived with two 'wives' and fathered children with both and didn't marry either of them.
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My cousin has a similar story.
Her father was known by one name and following his disappearance (with my aunt), the police arrived at the house looking for him. When they started searching his room, 4 passports in different names were found in his room. My cousin was subsequently born and then she and my aunt eventually arrived back home. My cousin was then adopted by her stepfather. However her mother never told her what this man's name really was (if she herself ever knew).
To compound the situation she doesn't have her origianl birth certificate and cannot get it yet even though we have the GRO ref for it - she's under 50.
So that's her father's side unknown.
On her mother's side, my grandmother liked to help the troops during the war and was very very friendly with them ;) The result of one such friendly act was my aunt (the cousin's mother!) All we know is that he was Canadian and his name was either Michael or Lloyd. We know this as she was friendly to another Canadian which resulted in my uncle. Said uncle was named after the 2 fathers! Bless you nan ::)
The result of these is that my cousin knows only her mother's maternal line.
Pebs
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My cousin has a similar story.
Her father was known by one name and following his disappearance (with my aunt), the police arrived at the house looking for him. When they started searching his room, 4 passports in different names were found in his room. My cousin was subsequently born and then she and my aunt eventually arrived back home. My cousin was then adopted by her stepfather. However her mother never told her what this man's name really was (if she herself ever knew).
To compound the situation she doesn't have her origianl birth certificate and cannot get it yet even though we have the GRO ref for it - she's under 50.
So that's her father's side unknown.
On her mother's side, my grandmother liked to help the troops during the war and was very very friendly with them ;) The result of one such friendly act was my aunt (the cousin's mother!) All we know is that he was Canadian and his name was either Michael or Lloyd. We know this as she was friendly to another Canadian which resulted in my uncle. Said uncle was named after the 2 fathers! Bless you nan ::)
The result of these is that my cousin knows only her mother's maternal line.
Pebs
I am not 100% on this but I don't see any reason why she can't get her birth certificate what ever her age
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I am not 100% on this but I don't see any reason why she can't get her birth certificate what ever her age
Unfortunately you have to be able to give full details of parents to get a birth certificate of someone under 50.
Was a great laugh last year when she tried to get a passport for the first time in her life. Luckily because she was adopted we got her adoption record and she could use that instead.
We even tried ringing GRO to explain the situation and they were very nice but said she had to give full details of parents names.
We're waiting with baited breath for her 50th birthday
Pebs
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My lady friend is now very happy with the research results I have given her. It is indeed fortunate that her 'uncle'/step-brother's father had an uncommon name. (There's less than 50 on recent ER's.)
Just found the 2x great grandfather born in Norwich emigrated to Australia after 1851.
When I have 'finished' this line, my friend wants me to investigate her 'other' lines.Her paternal and maternal. She has also lots of photos which have names and dates on the back, but she doesn't have a clue who most of them are. Worth investigating perhaps especially if you have written on a photo 'X and X outside their house in Bungay 1907'
Which makes me question why didn't any of my rellies have all this material when I started my tree?
I love the detective work anyhow
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I don't understand that reference to not being able to get original birth certificate because she is under 50. I had a child in 1960 who was adopted and she and her adoptive father got her original birth certificate from which they managed to trace me in about 2003, well before she was 50. They had no idea of my name and her father's name is not on the birth certificate, so there must be a way of doing it.
Somewhere, I have a letter from her adoptive father setting out exactly how he managed to trace me, which presumably tells me how he found out his adopted daughters original birth name, it's a long time since I read it and I can't remember all the details.
Lizzie
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I agree with the other members re the obtaining of the original birth certificate!
I purchased the original birth certificate, of an adopted child, she already had the adoption papers, with very little details on it, we found 4 close registrations so ordered them all at once online. They all arrived together with no problems at all.
As long as you have registration detail's and year of birth you do not need all the other info on line,
From memory they ask is this an adoption, do not tick yes, it is not an adoption but the original birth.
This was a wonderful result for this family as mother and daughter were reunited just this year.
Order on line.
Good luck
Suzy
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A good friend of mine thought she was a only child for 38 years, until she got a phone call from her long lost brother.
Her mother had a son 2 years before her. I guess being a unmarried mother back in 1964, she was made to give him up for adoption.
My friends mother married the man in question.
Both her parents died young and my friend was brought up by her grandparents, Never once did her grandmother tell her about her full blood brother.
She has questioned why she was never told by her grandparents, both took the secret to their graves.
Suzy W
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Reveal the truth.What is the point of researching a tree and holding back information?This is all part of the interest and fun.I have a few skeletons in my tree which make things more interesting.My mother was born out of wedlock,I have a gggrandmother who cut her throat in the 1860s,a grandfather who had a son just prior to his marriage and who did not marry the mother until after his first wife died.Just a few of my stories which have added to the general story of my family.
Reveal all
Ringrose
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Thanks LizzieW and Pross101. I must have read about needing all the details under 50 which is why cousin tried to do in by telephone.
It says nothing about an adoption on the GRO indexes so will try ordering online - what we should have done last year - hindsight is a great thing :-\
Also would you believe that at 5 o'clock this morning I woke uo and suddenly realised that if cousin could have got her original birth certificate if she had undergone counselling as well. We had decided against that route as she didn't feel the need to get counselled about being adopted by her own mother and stepfather! And also it's only a few years until she's 50 so decided to do it then.
But I'm going to go online this evening and order a copy as a surprise for her, she coming here for a holiday in about 3 weeks so timing should work out
Thanks again those who said we could do it online (I blame my blonde senior moments ;) )
Pebs
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:( Bad news
From GRO site - FAQ section :
For births, marriages and deaths, you may apply online for any certificate if you have the full GRO index reference. In the case of events in the last 50 years you will be prompted to supply further details as you complete the online application form.
Having just tried to order online, the extra information required includes parents names both first and surnames. Guess we'll just have to be patient but it was exciting while it lasted
Pebs
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Surely if she knows her mother's name this should be sufficient? There must be thousands of people who don't know their father's names. I can understand if you are applying for someone else's certificate, but not if it is your own. If so, that would mean if you are under 50, hadn't got your birth certificate and didn't know your father's name you could never get a passport wouldn't it?
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Correct Groom, I wonder if a petition on the No.10 website would attract a suitable response?
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Further along in the saga....
Discovered two brothers in the same family, killed within a fortnight of each other on the Somme WW1.
Both married.
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Honesty is always the best policy and remember, what has happened is history, it can't be changed and it makes people who they are. Sometimes its a shock, but, things happen.
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Honesty is always the best policy and remember, what has happened is history, it can't be changed and it makes people who they are. Sometimes its a shock, but, things happen.
Absolutely, and we shouldn't allow ourselves to be shocked by the past.
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Honesty is best as just said.
Have just been doing some research for a friend myself and found a couple of things out about her and her mum.
Its not easy to tell them, but there are ways!!
I come from a long long line of No Dads dating back to the 1600s and well into Queen Victoria's strict era.
Salty
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This is a fascinating thread. TX for starting it Tiger.
I stumbled over a new story in my tree late last week.
My grandma's grandparents (my 2x great grandparents) had a large family - 14 children. The youngest was "adopted".
I knew the adopted one was the son on my 2x great grandfather's sister. For some inane reason, I never asked how he ended up with my 2x great grandfather's brood. I just assumed that he joined them to come west for better opportunity.
Fancy my surprise last week when I received written confirmation that yes, he was the son of my 2x great grandfather's sister. Yes she had 14 children. This 'adopted' son in my branch was the youngest. Why adopted away?
Her husband would go away for months each year find work. She had an affair with a married neighbour. The two youngest sons (children 13 & 14) were likely not her husband's so the youngest went to my branch. The second youngest one went to an unrelated family.
Now riddle me this .... how in the world after having 12 children did she have enough energy & interest to have an affair & subsequently birth 2 more babies. :o ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Husband away a lot - 12 children to care for - in need of TLC - helpful neighbour - one thing leads to another - twice ::)
Linda
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Now riddle me this .... how in the world after having 12 children did she have enough energy & interest to have an affair ..?
With 12 other children, when would she have had the time?? And, with that many people in the house ... where could it possibly happen, that somebody wouldn't notice??
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Now riddle me this .... how in the world after having 12 children did she have enough energy & interest to have an affair ..?
With 12 other children, when would she have had the time?? And, with that many people in the house ... where could it possibly happen, that somebody wouldn't notice??
Leave the eldest babysitting and pop next door to "borrow a cup of sugar" ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Just so!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Or back of the bike shed as we say in England
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Leave the eldest babysitting and pop next door to "borrow a cup of sugar" ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Babysitting ? Many kids in the 1800's were at work by the age of 6 ::)
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No need to watch to "far fetched" soaps on the TV! All human life is laid bare on Rootschat.
We all have secrets and oddities in our Family trees; it makes research interesting.
Happy searching all!
Croxia
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Now riddle me this .... how in the world after having 12 children did she have enough energy & interest to have an affair ..?
With 12 other children, when would she have had the time?? And, with that many people in the house ... where could it possibly happen, that somebody wouldn't notice??
Leave the eldest babysitting and pop next door to "borrow a cup of sugar" ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Such a situation in a branch of my family involved nipping out to the grocers shop for a tin of vegetables. When she went the pantry was full of unused outdated tins of veg.
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Now riddle me this .... how in the world after having 12 children did she have enough energy & interest to have an affair ..?
With 12 other children, when would she have had the time?? And, with that many people in the house ... where could it possibly happen, that somebody wouldn't notice??
Leave the eldest babysitting and pop next door to "borrow a cup of sugar" ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Such a situation in a branch of my family involved nipping out to the grocers shop for a tin of vegetables. When she went the pantry was full of unused outdated tins of veg.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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So I have now got the basics down and traced her paternal and maternal lines back to the early 19th century.
There are lots of potential avenues to explore, branches to climb. and I could go back further, her uncle/half-brother seems to have a potential back another 100 years at least.
My friend certainly wants me to go further and is willing to pay for certs etc.
She has got the 'bug'.
I will use my own FT progs to compile her tree.
How much would you 'charge' a fairly well off pensioner?
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It's got to be worth at least a decent lunch out somewhere :D
Linda
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Hi Tiger, Watch for a PM with a fee structure I saw on another site. I didn't utilize the services, but know that many have so they must be within the realm of reasonability.
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Update
My friend is descended from 'landed gentry' her ggggf was a Baronet.
She is amazed at the find, makes up for the 'trauma' of the other discovery
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Since Baronetcies are hereditary, who holds the title now; or has it become extinct if there are no male descendants?
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The title still exists, the family seems to date back to William the Conqueror's lot although the Baronetcy was created much later.
My friend is descended form a third son of a fourth son of a second daughter.
Still it makes her happy to know that she has distant cousins who are 'aristos'.
They are there in Burkes and somebody has posted a line on rootsweb [pinch of salt needed].
Now we find her mystery uncle/half brother was a distant cousin of her mother AND father. Family History LOVE IT
I would love to reveal names etc but my friend says she wants to consult family before any data is published.
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Inbreeding the norm in the 19th century amongst all classes in society.
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Restricted field to play when you had limited means of transport !!! ;D ;D
Makes it all the harder when trying to find a rellie in a village where many of them have the same surnames doesn't it - coupled with the family naming systems, it makes it a wonder we can trace anyone! ::) ;)