RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Sutherland => Topic started by: jowall84j on Saturday 24 September 11 23:43 BST (UK)
-
hi everyone....
ive hit a massive brick wall and getting disheartened with it all. My name is johan wallace and i live in glasgow im trying to find information on a johan mckay born in durness around 1879, her mother was called margaret mckay and on her birth certificate it says she was illegitimate but however on johan mckays wedding certificate to hugh bain it says she has a dad called john mckay who had died sometime before 1906. I know johan came down to glasgow around 20 for work and that is where she met hugh bain, im desperate to get some info on the woman im named after.
any help would be amazing thanks
-
Hi and welcome to Rootschat
Does the marriage cert show her mother as Margaret McKay without any maiden name?
If so - it's likely she made up a fathers name when she married so as to appear "respectable" - happened a lot back then
-
1881 census of scotland
We have a Dolina Mackay Age: 62
Head of the household born Durness , Sutherlandshire
living in Durness in a house called Durine
her occupation is Farmer (Crofter( (2acres Arable)
living with her son Donald aged 29 he is an Ag lab cum Fisherman
Her Daughter Maggie aged 23 who is a domestic servant, and grand daughter Johan aged 1
in 1891 same story only two more grandchildren,
Donald aged 7 and Eric aged 3
in 1901 Donald Mckay is head of household
Maggie is his sister, she is now a Housekeeper(domestic)
Johan is his niece and the other two children(nephews) are called surname Mcculloch Donald mccolloch aged 18 and Eric Mccolloch aged 14
I wonder if Maggie is working for somebody called mcculloch!!
mm
-
Might be worth a peek at one of the McCulloch boys birth certs
-
strangely enough the only Mccullochs in Durness are
Thomas Mcculloch age 44 a Crofter, living with his sister Christina age 57 his niece Katie age 32 and grandnephew Hector age 1
mm
-
1871 same address
Dolina, with children Donald age 21, Eril aged 19 Margaret age 14 and Angus aged 12
1861 same address
Father Donald age 48 Tenant of land, Wife Dolina,
children
Keneth Mackay age 13
Donald Mackay age 10
Eric Mackay age 7
Georgina Mackay age 6
Margaret Mackay age 4
Angus Mackay age 3
mm
-
1851
same address Donald is a joiner age 36/ Wife Dolina
children the ages are a bit weird, cant see the actual images, only the transcription. I would imagine someone has made a bodge up
Johanna Mckay age 8
Donald Mckay age 25
Erico Mckay age 14
George Mckay Grandfather age 36
Flora Mckay Aunt age 50
mm
-
hey everyone
thankyou for your responses, i got the donald mcculloch birth certificate his dad was john mcculloch and he married a susan in glasgow however donald was born in oban???
im getting very frustrated with this family member :(
-
There is a Donald Mcculloch from Oban living in Glasgow on the 1901 census. Two different people on two different returns.
The Donald Mckay(Mcculloch) one dosent seem to be him. If he had a birth cert it would more likely be under the name Mckay(Mackay). It looks obvious that they were born Mckay. On scotlands people there are 2 hits for Donald Mckay in 1884, and 2 in 1885. and one for Eric in 1888 in Durness.
Another thing to do is to search out the 1911 census, see what Margaret(Maggie) is doing, maybe she moved in with Thomas Mcculloch.
There is a Canadian WW1 sign up for a Donald Mackay, from Durness birth date(2 Feb 1885) The problem with the Mckay name is its like Jones and Smith in England, very common name. which could lead to confusion,
step 1 is to get the correct birth cert, then compare dates, see if it is the same fella.
mm
-
Hi Johan,
Johan was a fairly common name among the MacKays of Durness parish. One of my ancestors was Johan MacKay but she lived much earlier.In earlier times, Durness was the name of the large Parish that comprised much of the north coast of Sutherland. Much of the parish fell within what was known as "MacKay Country", i.e. the land controlled, at that time, by the Chiefs of Clan MacKay.
In consequence, roughly 25% of the population had the surname "MacKay", and many of those had the same given name, making identification difficult at times, although "eke" names and patronymics do help.
There were numerous settlements/townships/hamlets within the Parish, one of which was Durine the main settlement of what has become the Village of Durness. It is more or less in the centre of the village.
Johan, I believe more information might be forthcoming
if you provided us with some more details of what you already have.For example, the following questions occurred to me:
Where and when was Johan married?
If you have her birth certificate, why do you say she was born around a certain year? Is the exact date not given on the certificate? Where was she born/christened?When and where did her mother, Margaret, die
/ Do you have a death certificate? They are usually quite informaticve.
I have a list of burials and headstones at Balnakeil cemetery and I can look for Johan's mother and grandmother if I have more details.. There is a Dolina who died in 1931 and two margaret MacKays.
Ian
-
Well, the Free Church records of births, baptisms and marrages available online only cover 1843-1855. However, if your ancestor Johan MacKay was born out of wedlock in 1879, it seems likely that her mother Margaret was born sometime around 20-30 years before that, and would appear to be one of -
1847 Sep 26 Margaret to James MacKay Lerin & Margaret MacKay
1848 Mar 19 Margaret to John MacKay Macritchie & Jean MacKay
1849 Nov 3 Margaret to James MacKay cottar Erriboll & Catherine Morrison
These are the only three Margaret MacKays recorded as baptised in Durness in the whole period above, so it seems likely that one of these three was Johan's mother. Not sure if that's any help.
-
Maragret Mackay was born in 1855, in Durness, to Donald Mackay and Dolina Morrison. 1855 was of course the first year of formal registrations, so I have the birth certificate from Scotlands people.
I have her tree going back another three or four generations from both her parents.
She is my GGG Grandmother and seems to have led a rather "interesting" life. I'm descended for her first daughter, Dolina Mackay, born in Thurso in 1871, when she was 16. She took the father, a local shoemaker, to court to prove paternity. However she is recorded in three places in the 1871 census - living at home with her partents in Durness, living with her Paternal Great Aunt next door and with her Maternal Aunt and Uncle in Thurso. (In 1861 she is recorded as living with both her parents and her G Aunt)
By 1881 she had moving back to Durness, and had a second Daughter - your Johan - and was living with her Mother and Brother. She left my GG Grandmother in Thurso, in the care an 80 year old woman, who I suspect was a relative, but have yet to work that one through.
She then had two sons, Donald and Eric, both recorded as Mcculloch.
I have seen other references to Margaret Mackay on this board, but no-one seems to have noted that she lived in Thurso and had one daughter there before coming back to Durness.
I have spent quite a few years now getting to the bottom of Margaret's movements, and in doing so have managed to solve one family mystery. When I was a wee boy in Thurso there was always a family story that we had connections to Eilean nan Ròn in the Kyle of Tongue. In fact I was taken there as a baby in the early 60's in my Grandfather Mackays fishing boat, and was the first baby back there since the evacuation in the 30's. We still live on the North Coast, so as an Adult I started to see which bit of the family came from Eilean nan Ròn, or Eilean Roan. No luck, one branch of the Mackays were Strathnaver, another Kildonan, another Reay (Aberach's).
Margaret seemed the only other choice, but was a dead end in Thurso, as she vanished in 1871, right after the birth of her Daughter, my GG Grandmother. The Court case gave me the clue - she was living with two Mackay brothers, and a Morrison Aunt and Uncle in Thurso - all from Durness, all recorded in the 1871 census, so that allowed me to move on, and discover that her Mothers family were Morrisons from Eilean Hoan off Smoo, not Roan.
Mystery solved, I'd like to think. Just shows how a little luck with timing in records (my GG Grandmother birth in 1871 was a few days before the census, and the Paternity Court case was in the October of 1871) allowed me to get to the bottom of it all.
-
To the last post regards that Johan McKay had an older sister no one has ever mentioned this, can you show me evidence?
-
Many many years ago I worked in the Scottish Record Office "weeding" the court records of Wick Sheriff Court. For reasons of historical interest I retained about 10% of the records (although the indexer couldn't read my writing). There is a small chance that the court papers may still be held in the archives of West Register House in Edinburgh
-
I think you must have the wrong Margaret if I'm honest. That would mean that she had 4 kids to 3 different guys? I'm confused that she's your ggg grandma and your 58 she's my ggg and I'm only 28? I just assumed that if you were posting these facts the now that you'd have a census or death/birth Certs etc on your pc to email to me
-
In Caithness in the mid-19th century farm labourers lived in very communal conditions, with perhaps four young men and four young women sharing the same accommodation. The illegitimate birth rate was well over 20%.
As it was far from unknown for women to bear children until they were over forty, a thirty year age gap over three generations is not surprising - I have full cousins on my tree born as far apart as 1765 and 1802
-
But you don't have any evidence to show me? Surely my family would know if there was a sister? Everyone seems dumbfounded by this revelation
-
Relax - firstly I’m not surprised that your branch of the family never knew there was an older sister, because our branch of the family never knew there was a younger sister, and two younger brothers. Indeed my Mother, her Brother and all our cousins are dumbfounded that there two Glasgow branches of the family that we never knew about.
I guess the that the fact that your branch of the family never knew of an older sister is that Margaret seems to have abandoned her daughter - my Great Great Grand Mother – called Dolina- in Thurso somewhere between 1871 and 1881. Dolina was then brought up a possible elderly relative, was in service in Wick, had her own first daughter born out of wedlock, then married my Great Grandfather and had a further 8 kids, including my Grand Mother, born 1901.
If I take you through my investigations, that may explain the background.
My Great Grandmother – Dolina Mackay was born in late March 1871 in Thurso. Her birth certificate has her mother as Margaret Mackay, and no father, i.e. illegitimate. Margaret’s address is Bank Street, Thurso on the Birth Certificate. Dolina was known in my family as Dolina Swanson and we could never work out why, until I noticed a note on her Birth certificate saying that there had been a court case to prove paternity.
In October 1871 Margaret Mackay had taken a Donald Swanson – shoemaker – to court to prove paternity, and the court found in her favour. The court records show that Margaret lived in Bank Street Thurso at the time of her daughter’s birth, just three days before the census date. Donald Swanson lived in Campbell Street, but a trawl through the census returns for Thurso in 1871 shows that there was only one Margaret Mackay recorded there, living with her cousins and aunt and uncle, all Morrison’s and all born in Eribol, Durness. Next door was a family of shoemakers, so it’s not fanciful to imagine a 36 year old Donald Swanson visiting his cobbler pals in Bank Street, and seducing a 16 year old Margaret, fresh from Durness to the excitements of Thurso.
So we have a Margaret Mackay as my GG Grandmother, recorded as living in Bank Street Thurso three days before the birth of her daughter, six months later recorded as still in Bank Street, in the court case, and is the only Margaret Mackay recorded in the census in Bank Street. Indeed she was recorded as living with her Uncle George, and his sister Ann, both Morrison’s, and two cousins, also Morrison’s, all born in Durness.
A search through records for Durness births show a Morrison Family with a George, an Ann, and a Dolina, who married an Angus Mackay and who had a daughter Margaret Ann born Durness in 1855.
There are no other Margaret MacKay’s born in Durness for five years either side of that date. Indeed Margaret was also the youngest daughter of a large family, with just one younger brother Angus.
OK – so we get a Margaret Mackay in the 1861 Census recorded as living with her parents in 1861, but recorded as aged 4. In Durine – right in the centre of Durness. We also get a Margaret Mackay aged 4 recorded as living with a Flora Mackay, in Durine in 1861. Margret is described as a “cousin”. Angus Mackay has an Aunt, of the same age, called Flora.
In 1871 we get a Margaret Mackay – recorded as aged 14 – living with her parents in Durness, We also get a Margaret Mackay recorded as 14, living with her Great Aunt Flora next door. In 1871 we also get a Margaret Mackay living with her Mothers brother and sister in Thurso aged 20. There are no other Morrison family's in Durness at that time that show that same groupings of names and ages.
I’m dammed if I can find any evidence that they are not the same person. However it’s not uncommon for the same people to be recorded as living in various locations in the same census, indeed I have it a few times on other parts of my family, especially in Caithness and Sutherland in the 1860’s and 70’s.
So 1881 census :-
Margaret Mackay – recorded as living in Durness, with her Mother, Brother and Daughter Johan, aged 1.
1891 census
Maggie Mackay recorded in in Durine, with her mother, older Brother, daughter Johan (10) and sons Donald and Eric Mcculloch – 7 and 3 respectively.
1901
Maggie Mackay living with her older brother Donald, and sons Donald and Eric Mcculloch – 18 and 14 respectively.
1911 – Margaret Mackay living alone in Durness
1929 – Margaret Mackay, father Angus Mackay, Mother Dolina Morrison, recorded as dying in the house of her son Eric McCulloch, Gibson Street, Glasgow.
So there we have it. Durness born Margaret Mackay had a daughter Dolina in Thurso in 1871, to a Donald Swanson, whilst living with her Mothers Brother and Sister. She then moved back to Durness, leaving her daughter behind, and had another daughter – Johan – in 1890. In 1891 she was living with her Mother and older brother, and daughter. She then had two sons by a McCulloch in the 1890’s, but was still living with her older brother in 1901, in Durness.
So - she did have four different kids to three different guys. Her first was when she was 16, and she abandoned her first born - my Grandmothers mother - to a relative, then moved back home to her folks. Then your Johan - again out of wedlock - and then the two McCulloch boys.
Since she seems to have moved to Glasgow between 1911 and 1929, I wonder if any of your side of the family have any stories about her?
-
I think you must have the wrong Margaret if I'm honest. That would mean that she had 4 kids to 3 different guys? I'm confused that she's your ggg grandma and your 58 she's my ggg and I'm only 28? I just assumed that if you were posting these facts the now that you'd have a census or death/birth Certs etc on your pc to email to me
:-) I'm not 58, I'm only 53..... My kids
As you will see from the note above, Margaret was 16 when she had my GGGrandmother, but a wee bit older when she had yours. After four generations there can be a "timeslip" so that whilst my oldest son is just a couple of years younger than you, we may share the same generational relatives.
Indeed, cos of large familes and oldest/youngest stuff I have one grandfather, born 1899 and who served in WW1, alongside his great uncle born 1885......
-
Things aren't matching up my Johan was born in 1879 and Margaret's mum and dad are Donald Mackay and donaldina Morrison? Donaldina dad is George Morrison and donaldina often gets written as dolina in census reports..
Hmmm well I know one of the mccullochs somewhere down the line was the chief of police in glasgow. I'm sure my gran said he stayed on Dudley drive, glasgow. It's been more than a nightmare tracking this woman!! On my wedding cert for Johan & Hugh wedding Margaret has wrote that her maiden name was mcivor and that she was mcculloch previously McKay
-
My mums 52 this year, how are we related then? I'm named after My gran Johan and she is name after her gran who is johan Mackay! I've found a lot of distant relatives recently from all the trees I'm doing and I plan on doing a holiday up north to see where there all from, Durness looks beautiful