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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Glamorganshire => Wales => Glamorganshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: J.HENRY on Sunday 25 September 11 13:35 BST (UK)
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I would like to no if any one would have any info on my GG Grand father JOHN HOWELL born 1838.From Swansea Wales,England .Father name -JOHN HOWELL mother name - ANNIE WALTERS. Any brothers or sister .And a copy of his birth certificate or be able to tell me the right place that he was born. MARRIAGES certificate said born in Swansea,South,Wales England. DEATH certificate said born in Swansea Wales,England.When I went to buy his birth certificate at there places they sent my money back.He was marriage at Mr Gunns Hotel in Wentworth NSW Australia in 1863 To JANE FERRIER. Any info would be grate.thank you.
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Have you got the 41 census details
John Howell 35 butcher
Ann 25
John 4
Mary Ann 2
Richard Walters 20 butcher
David Walters 15
Mary Walters 14
Eliza Walters 12
Hannah Thomas 25 female servant
all born in county
Orange Street Swansea
HO107 1426/4/8/9
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IGI has a Submitted Marriage Record;
John HOWELL
Ann WALTERS
25 October 1831, Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales
Hopefully someone can confirm this.
Trish :)
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Well found Isobelruss.
I was going crazy til I found them under Hornett and Howell and Walker!
Richard Walters and new Wife are in Swansea in 1851 but I cant find the Howells.
Could they have Emigrated by 1851?
NSW BMD has a ELIZA Howell Birth Reg 1845 to a John/Ann and a WILLIAM 1849. May be worth considering.
Trish :)
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Eng/Wales Non Conformist Record Indexes on Familysearch.Org has this possible;
JOHN Howell, Birth 09 March 1837, Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales
Parents JOHN/ANN
Another Record of same date has York Street Particular Baptist, Swansea
If this is him their would be no Birth Cert as it is before the beginning of Civil Reg and only a Baptism/Christening would be found.
And welcome to Rootschat J Henry :)
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Hello J.Henry :)
Welcome to Rootschat!
Does John's marriage certificate give his Father's occupation? That would help us to find the right family in 1841/51. John may have said Swansea as his birthplace but it could have been in one of the surrounding Parishes rather than the town itself (because some of them have Welsh spellings!)
Kind Regards
Morgan
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Hello Morgan
Sorry it has taken me so long to reply,But I had to fine out how to .First time on Rootschat.
(1) John Howell Marriage certificate / Father's occupation was PATTERN MAKER
(2) John Howell Death certificate / Father's occupation was Wheelwright.
Hope this helps.
J.HENRY
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Hello Isobelruss
Sorry it has taken so long to reply to you as I had to fine out how to.First time on Rootschat.
I have got the 1841 census but if you take 4 the age of John Howell from 1841 means he was born in 1837. My John
Howell was born in 1838 0r 1839.
Thank you
J.HENRY
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Hi Trish1120
I do not no when John Howell Emigrated to Australia or if his father @ mother come to Australia
with him.I was talking to my sister inlaw and she said she was reading a story on John Howell
that said he was 15 when he come to Australia? The NSW BMD of Eliza Howell born 1845 and
William Howell is wrong. So this John @ Ann Howell is not my John @ Annie Howell.
Thank You
J.HENRY
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Back to the drawing board then ;D
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Hi Trish1120
I do not no if the Marriage Record John Howell @ Annie Walters is right or not.As I
no not no muck about them only that there are John Howell parents. I was hopeing
that some one could tell me there year of birth and if they had any more kids apart
from John Howell.Sorry
J.HENRY :)
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Hello :)
You could try ordering the birth certificate for John Howell, specifying his mother's and father's names and father's occupation. There is a birth in freebmd of John Howell in 1838 (Dec quarter)
GRO reference is Swansea volume 26 page 401
Swansea Register Office (also contains link to GRO):
http://www.swansea.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=902
Kind Regards
Morgan
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Would any one have the birth certificate of my GG Gran father JOHN HOWELL born 1838 SWANSEA,WALES,ENGLAND.
fathers name - JOHN HOWELL
mothers name - ANNIE WALTERS
All does any one know how I can get my hands on it
Thank you
J.HENRY
Moderator Comment: topics merged from here
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There is a John Howell registered in
Dec Qtr 1838 Swansea
This could be your man, but the Registrar would need to
Check it with your other information eg, Parents names.
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Hi J Henry
Just so you get it right Swansea is in Wales Great Britain , Wales is not in England.
cheers cardiff :)
ps as CU has said birth as given need to add -vol 26 page 401
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Hi Cardiff
You said that Wales is not in England.I can only go off what the certificate I have said.
John Howell death certificate said he was born in / Swamsea,Wales,England.
John Howell marriage certificate said he was born in / Swansea, Soutrhy Wales,England.
I have brought John Howell last 4 kids birth certificate to see were he was born.I have not got
them yet.
Thank you
J.HENRY
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Hi CU
Thank you for your info. I have sean the Oct-Nov-Dec Qtr 1838 Swanseaa Birth certificate of John Howell.I have to go
to UK Ancestry.com to buy it.
John Howell / father is John Howell
John Howell / mother is Annie Walters.
Thank you
J.HENRY
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No, to the Registrar office at Swansea.
I sent you the address on the information I sent you.
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Topics merged to avoid duplication of effort :)
Please see reply #11 about purchase of certificates from GRO
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Hi J Henry
Today, I googled John Howell and found your post. John is my GG Grandfather too.
There is very limited information regarding John as far as immigration. Having said that, I was told some years ago that John and a friend came to Australia on a ship named "Blackswan" or Black Swan" and he was from Wales. I have found a ship by that name but no record of John Howell as a passenger.
Where do you fit in Howell/Ferrier Family?
I'm from Mary Ann Howell (1869-1965).
I have only just received John's death certificate, a little disappointed there was not more info regarding birth but at least confirmation on parents.
Hope to catch up with you
jampar55
:)
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Have you got the 41 census details
John Howell 35 butcher
Ann 25
John 4
Mary Ann 2
Richard Walters 20 butcher
David Walters 15
Mary Walters 14
Eliza Walters 12
Hannah Thomas 25 female servant
all born in county
Orange Street Swansea
HO107 1426/4/8/9
Thank you isobelruss!! I think I had just about shoe boxed all John Howell census but forgot to do the variants on surname. After coming across this today, this one is very promising.
Thank you.
:) jampar55
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Hello :)
John's father was a Pattern Maker or Wheelwright according to certificates so caution is needed with the John Howell who was a Swansea butcher in 1841 census.
However the Howell/Walter combination is a possibility, provided that John's mother's maiden name was Walter.
Perhaps the 1838 birth certificate would help clarify matters.
Kind regards
Morgan
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Hello :)
John's father was a Pattern Maker or Wheelwright according to certificates so caution is needed with the John Howell who was a Swansea butcher in 1841 census.
Kind regards
Morgan
I agree with caution!! Might not have wanted to follow in dad's footsteps. He ended up a publican in outback NSW. Died aged 47 + or - a year.
Having followed replies #11 and #21 by yourself and reply #2 from Trish I have looked at both IGI and FreeBMD.
IGI for marriage
x 2 for same date and persons and 2 districts of Glamorgan and John has an "s" on end of Howell. Districts being "Llanelly" and "Swansea".
The time frame of birth is the question!!! It has been stated 1838 or 1840, on freebmd there is a total of five births for John Howell from :-
Dec 1838 26 - 401 Swansea (your reply #11)
March 1838 26 - 566 Narberth
March 1839 26 - 537 Llanelly
March 1839 26 - 593 Narberth
June 1840 26 - 473 Swansea
After all of that I am :-\ on which one to go for!! Are there five year searches at GRO? :D
John's death certificate definitely states Swansea and his mothers surname states "Walters"
Any other advice greatly received to keep checking until the right one shows up.
Thanks
Judy55
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Hello :)
I would think that Narberth is unlikely, and Llanelly less likely than Swansea. Not sure about GRO searches, but Llanelly/Carmarthen do +/- 2 years either side of year specified. Not sure about Swansea, but worth sending an email to check whether this is the right one.
If you specify Ann Walters as mother when ordering from register office or GRO (don't quote reference number, but just name and district/year), they won't send it if it doesn't match. Register Offices don't use the GRO reference number anyway.
Kind Regards
Morgan
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Hello :)
If you specify Ann Walters as mother when ordering from register office or GRO (don't quote reference number, but just name and district/year), they won't send it if it doesn't match. Register Offices don't use the GRO reference number anyway.
Kind Regards
Morgan
Thanks Morgan. That's the way I was thinking of going (ie. not quoting reference no.)
I wondered though, whether to quote father, as sometimes it's only father mentioned!!
Then there is a lot of John Howell's!!!
Have not been able to find a census in 1841 where John Howell snr is listed as wheelwright.....there are a lot of farmers!!
However, I did find a Charlotte Howell , I think 1851 census with John Howell listed as grand son. Perhaps grabbing at straws, but one of John's daughters was named Charlotte.
Thanks again. :)
Judy55
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Hello Judy,
I've read your messages on Rootchat.
Sorry, have you managed to get a Birth Certificate to John Howell, born Oct-Dec 1838?
John Howell/s is very difficult to find, there were no wheelwrights by the name of John Howell/s , or Howell in Swansea in 1828 and 1858 ( according to Slaters Directory 1858-1859 http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/Swansea/slaters-swansea.html and 1822-1823 Pigott's directory http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/Swansea/pigot.1822.html) .
I saw a photocopy of John's and Ann's marriage record, at least we know that they were literate and lived at that moment in Swansea , but that is all...
There was one John Howells , wheelwright, timber merchant and coach builder later in 1880s in Cardiff, but that is the closest wheelwright by the name of John Howells I can find in Glamorgan. I hope he was a relative of John Howell/Howells from Swansea...
None of the 1841, 1851 census papers show John Howell/s as a wheelwright in Swansea or anywhere else in Glamorgan or even Wales for that matter... Though John Howells, the wheelwright is mentioned as a father of a groom in the marriage record for George Howell , also a wheelwright, 17 Sept 1837, St Mary the Virgin, Eccles, Pendelton Lancashire England to Elizabeth Ogden...But it is too far away from Wales...
Have you found more information about Howells' since your last post?
Thank you
Elena
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IGI has a Submitted Marriage Record;
John HOWELL
Ann WALTERS
25 October 1831, Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales
Hopefully someone can confirm this.
Trish :)
Marriage of John Howell, bachelor, and Ann Walters, spinster, on 25 Oct 1831, in the Parish of Swansea. Married by Banns, both of the Parish, in the presence of James Evans and William Davies. Both Bride and Groom signed the register.
P.S. Elena - Welcome to Rootschat! :)
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John HOWELL
Ann WALTERS
25 October 1831, Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales
Trish :)
[/quote]
Marriage of John Howell, bachelor, and Ann Walters, spinster, on 25 Oct 1831, in the Parish of Swansea. Married by Banns, both of the Parish, in the presence of James Evans and William Davies. Both Bride and Groom signed the register.
P.S. Elena - Welcome to Rootschat! :)
[/quote]
Thank you very much Morganlllan! I was sent the photocopy of the original page by one very kind lady :)
William Davies is a registrar or a clerk as his name is present on all records on the page. And, unfortunately, "James Evans" is a very common name to help with the research...
After a few months of trying to find John Howell through all available internet resources I believe that John Howell senior either died before 1841 census or changed his profession and/or the town, or even moved to England...
Theoretically, wheelwrights always worked together with blacksmiths, by the middle of the 19th century wooden/metal wheels gradually were replaced by "all metal" wheels, so wheelwrights might lost their businesses ( a guess only). They might (again a guess) become blacksmiths ( there is John Howell, the blacksmith, in Glamorgan at the that time, in Bryn Maer - 1844 directory), farmers, inn/tavern keepers, butchers (???) who knows...
Or they could move to other places... we do not know any names of John's siblings...We can only guess that Ann and John should be born not later than 1813 as unlikely that they were younger than 18 at the time of her marriage. Therefore all Anns and Johns younger than that- are wrong...
John could also remarry if Ann died before him...
I also read that by the middle of 19th century Cardiff, as a port and an industrial centre, surpassed Swansea, so John (or his unknown sons and grandsons) could relocate to Cardiff, for example...There is "John Howell & sons" , wheelwright, coach builder and timber merchant in Cardiff (1880-1915)...
Hopefully somebody has an answer to this puzzle :-)
Thank you once more
Elena
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Hello Judy,
Have you found more information about Howells' since your last post?
Thank you
Elena
No Elena.
Still checking out all the references and suggestions from this site. Perhaps John wasn't born in 1838 like we all think. My Mum's cousin told me once that he came to Australia with a friend (male) about 1850's on a ship named "Black Swan". I found the ship mentioned but not in that time frame and no John Howell as passenger. :(.
Hopefully one day the "brick Wall" will fall down!!!
Judy
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No Elena.
Still checking out all the references and suggestions from this site. Perhaps John wasn't born in 1838 like we all think. My Mum's cousin told me once that he came to Australia with a friend (male) about 1850's on a ship named "Black Swan". I found the ship mentioned but not in that time frame and no John Howell as passenger. :(.
Hopefully one day the "brick Wall" will fall down!!!
Judy
Hi Judy,
There are a lot of mistakes in his daughter's Jane Howell husband's William Clinch death certificate, they could be also in John Howell's Death certificate, who knows...
I looked through passenger records ...I believe (it does not mean that it is true) that John might come to Australia on Sandalha in 1855
John Howell
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Age: 17
Arrival Date: 18 Sep 1856
Arrival Port: Melbourne, Australia
Departure Port: Liverpool
Ship: Saldanha
Nationality: English...
That is the only John Howell I found that arrived 30 years before 1885, as stated in his death certificate... His nationality though was English, not Welsh...
Trade people began to move between places in 19th century and if John Howell junior can go to Australia his father can move his family from England to Wales and back, following job opportunities...
When I looked at Black Swan movements in 1855-1856, I noticed that it was sailing along Australian mainland's coast and from Australian mainland to Tasmania and back...It did not go to UK...Could it be that John Howell and his friend changed ships to go to a particular place in Australia or Tasmania?
I place a note a few months ago on Howells' tree that "in 1855 only a few ships arrived from UK from which passengers were taken by Black Swan: Ben Nevis, Champion of the Seas, James Baines, Marco Polo, Solway . There were no John Howell among them... Black Swan was a local Australian ship, sailing from Brisbane, to Sydney, Lancestorn, etc". I have not checked records for Black Swan for 1856 ...do not remember why now , sorry, maybe I did not find them???
Saldalha arrived in Melbourne, they might wanted to go to SA or NSW ot some other place they have heard of or to some friends or relatives they knew (a guess again) . It is pretty brave to arrive to another country on the other side of the globe without having anyone here...Something or somebody could had tempted them to get here...
Ann Waters married John Howell/s in 1831, there should be older siblings of the same marriage born between 1832-1837 that may had stayed in UK ???
I found a family of Howells, the wheelwrights from Pendelton, Lancashire; 17 Sept 1837 George Howell, the wheelwright, widower, married Elizabeth Ogden, widow , St Mary the Virgin, Eccles, Lancashire; his father is mentioned as John Howell, the wheelwright from Pendelton, Salford, Lancashire...He is the only "early" John Howell, the wheelwright that is mentioned in available to me documents...Bride's father was John Sheldon...
There may be some documents we do not have access to yet... that will have John Howell, the wheelwright, living closer to Swansea in 1831-1838.
Hope we will find them :)
Elena
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Hi there - Don't know if this is helpful or just introducing another complication, but I've been researching the name Buckney, and I know that in the 1851 census (Pembrokeshire), my g-g-g-grandparents George and Ann Buckney are living with their daughter Lettice (my g-g-grandmother, b. 1845), along with her 2 older half-brothers - John and Benjamin HOWELLS. For some reason I have only the birth date for Benjamin (1839, in Salford), but you can check the census. George's wife Ann (Howells?) was born in Pembrokeshire in 1805. Most likely not the same Ann or John Howells that you're looking for, but thought I'd mention it...
Muggins