RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Georgfriedrich on Sunday 02 October 11 15:57 BST (UK)
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Hello fellow rootschatters,
There are many sites and online family trees which take it for granted that the Presnells come from Oxfordshire. They also take it for granted that the progenitors of the family married in Sussex and point to a parish record to be found in the IGI showing James Presnell marrying Sarah Tooth at Piddinghoe in 1765.
My question is: How do we know these are the correct Presnells? How do we know that the parents of the original Tasmanian Presnells are in fact these two people? I know Sarah Presnell arrived in HObart prior to her death in 1823 but how do we know she came from Sussex?
There appear to be a family of Presnells living in Sussex and another family living in Oxfordshire but I cannot find any link between the two nor a link between either of these and the Tasmania Presnells who seem to appear in records in London in the 1800s.
Are there any proofs out there in document land to lend credence to these beliefs? ???
Any ideas are welcome as I am finding this to be a sticking point in my construction of the Presnell family tree prior to arriving in Tasmania
Thank you
Kirk
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2181811?searchTerm=Presnell&searchLimits=l-decade=182
you could try trolling through TROVE for any reference ie like the one I have attached
Unfortunately the early Tasmanian certificates were woefully lacking in information.
Jenn
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Thanks Jen,
I will start searching but I am not confident. I did think of Trove but 'England' always seems to be the place of birth and nothing more specific!
Kirk
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Hi Kirk,
The best records for this time period are the Tas. Colonial Secretary's Papers, but you will only occasionally find references to places of origin. Having a trawl around the internet it seems that others have already accessed these records for the PRESNELL family's applications for land grants. It also doesn't look like any of the headstones provide any useful information.
I must say that it is quite amusing to see how many people have joined the details of two families together to make one. It was James PRESNELL who married Sarah TOOTH in Piddinghoe, Sussex and Thomas PRESNELL who was having children with a Sarah in Essex. Some trees join all the children into one family and others have Thomas marrying Sarah TOOTH, just to make things "fit" better. ;D
I personally cannot see how James and Sarah of Piddinghoe can be the originators of the Tas families. They married at Piddinghoe in 1765 and children shown as being baptised in Piddinghoe are Sarah (1767), Mary (1769), Thomas (1772), Jenny (1774), Elizabeth (1776), Phillis (1778), James (1780), and Thomas Hugh (1782).
It would appear that the first Thomas died, but Thomas Hugh PRESNELL survived and married firstly in 1801 (bachelor of Piddinghoe) to Sarah GORRINGE. They had one child, James, in 1802. Thomas married secondly in 1808 (widower of Piddinghoe) to Charlotte HARRIS and they had a number of children. At least two of them, Harriet and Sarah, also married in Piddinghoe.
Sarah PRESNELL who died in Tas in 1823 after immigrating had at least four sons living there - Thomas, John, James and William. This Thomas married Martha DADGE in 1798 in London. The DADGE name was used by Tas. descendants. Clearly these two Thomas's are completely different people. Sarah's son Thomas was already in Tasmania when the Piddinghoe Thomas (son of James and Sarah) was still in Sussex having children.
I would suggest that the first thing you should do is spend some time with the Piddinghoe parish registers to see if James PRESNELL and Sarah TOOTH died there. That would surely disprove any connection between them and Tasmania.
The Oxfordshire connection is through Thomas PRESNELL and Martha DADGE. A quote:
"Thomas Presnell held the victualler's licence in the village of Cornwell near Chipping Norton, Oxon, from 1807 to 1819 before coming to Australia, free immigrant, in 1820 or 1821. According to the Victuallers' Cognizances which are on microfilm at the LDS, the licence was taken over 1820-1822 by his wife Martha Presnell, who never came to Australia".
I have a question - if Sarah's son William was the person who was transported to NSW in 1798 then who was the William PRESNELL who arrived free on the Jessie in 1821?
This claims that he was the son of Thomas, and so the grandson of Sarah, however Thomas's son would have only been six years old in 1821.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/PRESNELL/2002-03/1015108468
Debra :)
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Spot on Debra! ;)
This clearly involves a lot more research. That is interesting that Martha Dadge never went to Australia.
I also had a lot of problems with the William Presnell issue. There are to my mind two of them living in Australia. One a free settler in Tasmania and the other a convict who I understand was living in (I think) living on Norfolk Island for a time...
This is what makes FT research so interesting - sorting through the facts and hopefully getting to the truth of the matter.
Bye for now
Kirk
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Im glad someone else is querying the presnell family tree :) i have a harriet presnell in my tree, born 1827 in new norfolk tas who married john cutler green. According to other peoples trees harriets parents are thomas presnell b. 1806 in oxfordshire and christiana presnell b. 1808 stepney london. Apparently they were cousins so i think that is how people have linked the two families, but i am still very unsure . Thanks for the extra info on martha dadge :)
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It looks as though both Thomas and Christiana were under the age of 21 as it is recorded that both had consent to marry. The two men giving their consent, Thomas PRESNELL Snr. and John PRESNELL Snr. were likely to be their fathers, but may also have been a brother or another responsible adult.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1971-35347-4298-95?cc=2125029&wc=M93C-9CN:538932062
Harriet's baptism:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-35349-20862-31?cc=2125029&wc=M93C-9C7:n969996052
Debra :)
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Thanks debra :) i just done a google search lol and 'apparently' christianas dad was john presnell who died 1831 aged 45. They came to au aboard 'midas' in 1820. Thomas' parents were thomas presnell and martha dadge. I cant find a birth record for john but google says he was the son of james presnell and sarah tooth. Making him thomas' brother. Thats definatly the link that ties the two families together but now makes absolutly no sense.
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Thanks debra :) I cant find a birth record for john but google says he was the son of james presnell and sarah tooth. Making him thomas' brother.
It is highly unlikely that the Sussex family of James PRESNELL & Sarah TOOTH had anything to do with the Tasmanian PRESNELL families.
James PRESNELL & Sarah TOOTH
Married 26 May 1765
at Piddinghoe, Sussex, England
Children baptised at Piddinghoe, Sussex to James & Sarah:
Sarah - 1767
Mary - 1769
Thomas - 1772 (buried 1772)
Jenny - 1774
Elizabeth - 1776
Phillis - 1778 (buried 1779)
James - 1780
Thomas Hugh - 1782
There was another PRESNELL family with parents Thomas & Sarah who were having children in Leyton, Essex and they look to be far more likely contenders for your family.
Children baptised in Leyton, Essex to Thomas & Sarah:
Thomas - 1774
William - 1776
James - 1778
Ann - 1780
Sarah - 1782
Joseph - 1784
John - 1787
Lucy - 1789
These dates sit fairly well with the marriage years of the three sons in London - James to Elizabeth DOUGHTY (1797), Thomas to Martha DADGE (1798), and John to Eleanor SHELTON/SKELTON in 1807, and also with their ages at death in Tasmania.
I do not see a marriage for Thomas PRESNELL and Sarah in the indexes that I have access to, but it may be worth contacting the Essex family history society as many societies have indexed the marriages in their counties.
Debra :)
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The clues to working this one out are in the documentation. (All the below has been gleaned from google searches and from searches of the archives held by ancestry.com.)
In summary:-
* Mrs Sarah Presnell who arrived in Hobart at the end of 1822 and died in Hobart in 1823 was the mother of William Presnell the convict from Essex.
* Mrs Sarah Presnell was NOT Sarah Tooth from Sussex.
* The family came from Essex, much of which today is part of the metropolis of London.
* Some of her children married in London.
* Her son Thomas married in London but moved his family to Oxfordshire before immigrating to Tasmania.
* Two of her other sons married in London, and settled in London before immigrating to Tasmania.
* Her husband’s name is unknown. (It is unsafe to assume that her children were baptized at Leyton, Essex as the children of a Thomas Presnell. Available evidence suggests that the Leyton, Essex family is the wrong family.)
Evidence for the summary above follows:-
1) The family in Sussex can be eliminated as per the posts of Debra (Dundee) on 5 October 2011 and 25 Jun 2013. In other words the matriarch Sarah is NOT Sarah Tooth who married James Presnell in Piddinghoe, Sussex in 1765.
2) When the matriarch Sarah died in Hobart on 27 Mar 1823 the notice in the newspaper said :
DIED—On Thursday morning last, after a short illness, Mrs. Presnell, mother of Mr. William Presnell, of Argyle-street, leaving a numerous family both in this Colony and in England to lament her loss. —The deceased arrived only a few months ago from England, in apparently good health, and lived to see the 86th year of her age. (Hobart Town Gazette, Saturday 29 Mar 1823)
Please note that Thursday morning last was 27 Mar 1823.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1089873
The death registration identifies her name at death as Sarah Presnell.
This tells us-
(a) Sarah was the mother of William Presnell of Argyle St
(b) Sarah had only recently arrived in Tasmania
(c) Sarah had a large family in England and Tasmania
(a) William Presnell (c1765-1839), the convict who had been moved from Norfolk Island with his wife Ann Fowler (c1764-1846) and their children, had been granted a building plot in Argyle Street, Glenorchy (a suburb of Hobart) in 1816. There is further documentary evidence of William Presnell’s association with his property in Argyle Street including that he built a residence there, that he established a bakery there which he leased out in Nov 1819, that he brewed beer and established a tavern there, and that he ran a "Horse, Cart and Dray Establishment" from there. On 23 Aug 1823 his son-in-law George William Robinson took over the running of the tavern and the cartage business at Argyle Street, while William continued from that address in his brewery business, appearing as such in an advertisement in 1824, and shown as “Wm Presnell, Brewer, Argyle Street” in the 1825 Tasmanian Almanack, and as “Presnell Wm., Carter & Brewer, Argyle Street” in 1826. William Presnell the convict was therefore known as William Presnell of Argyle Street.
Willam Presnell the convict (who received an Absolute Pardon in August 1821) is therefore the son of Sarah who died in 1823. William was convicted in Essex in 1797, establishing the place of origin of the family. (At William’s conviction he was recorded as from the Parish of Plaistow, Esssex. His Parish in Essex, however, is recorded differently for each of his four convictions, the other 3 parishes named being Chinkford, Little Ilford, and West Ham.)
(b) Sarah arrived in Hobart with her family on the “Regalia” on 30 Dec 1822.
Ship News.—Arrived on Monday last the ship Regalia...
The names of the passengers per the two arrivals this week from England, are as follow: Per Regalia, 70 in number, viiz…Mrs. S. Presnell and family. (Hobart Town Gazette, Saturday 4 January 1823)
Please note that Monday last was 30 Dec 1823.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1089828
The family who accompanied her were her son Thomas and some of his children.
(Continued in next post)
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(Continued from previous post)
(c) Two of Sarah’s sons, and an unaccompanied grandson, immigrated to Tasmania before she did:
* William Presnell (c1765-1839) forced migration to NSW on “Barwell” in 1798 from whence by about 1801 he was sent to Norfolk Island, and then in 1808 to Tasmania.
* John Presnell (c1786-1831) on “Midas” on 13 Jan 1821. With John was his wife and children.
* William James Presnell (ka William Presnell Jnr) (1798-1884) on “Jessie” on 26 Feb 1821. William was the son of Sarah’s son James Presnell (c1775-1844). (In March 1823 William Presnell Jnr applied for an allotment of land in Hobart Town. In support of his application William supplied the following information:
- he was a relative of the family of the same name residing in Hobart.
- he arrived in the settlement, a free subject, per Jessie.
- he was a boot and shoe maker by trade.
- his family arrived per “Regalia”.
Thomas Presnell (who we know to be his uncle) supported William's application. William was granted his own allotment.)
One of Sarah’s sons immigrated with Sarah in 1822:
* Thomas Presnell (c1769-1843) on “Regalia” on 30 Dec 1822. With Thomas were some of his children. His wife and at least one son remained in England.
One of Sarah’s sons immigrated after Sarah died in 1823:
* James Presnell (c1775-1844) on “Wanstead” on 20 May 1828. With James was his wife, his son Abraham, his daughter-in-law, and a grandchild. His son William James had immigrated in 1821, and on a date unknown his daughter Harriet with her husband and family.
In addition to her son James and his family, Sarah would also have left behind in England other children (and their families) who have not been able to be identified.
There was a Thomas and Sarah Presnell who had children in Leyton, Essex in the period 1774 to 1789. They had sons by the name of William, Thomas, John and James. The dates of baptism for the sons James and John in this family from Leyton, Essex, are close to the years of birth estimated from the death records of Sarah’s sons James and John. The dates of baptism for the sons Thomas and William in this family from Leyton, Essex, are, however, out by about 5 years and 10 years respectively from the years of birth estimated from the death records of Sarah’s sons Thomas and William, and from the conviction record for her son William, and they are in a different birth order. The children of this family are:-
(1) Thomas bap.23 Jan 1774
– Sarah’s son Thomas was born c1769 from his death record, and Thomas was not the eldest son when compared to the records of his brother William
(2) William bap.9 Jun 1776
– Sarah’s son William was born c1765 from his death record and conviction record, and William was the eldest son when compared to the death record for his brother Thomas
(3) James bap.7 Jun 1778 – Sarah’s son James was born c1775 from his death record
(4) Ann bap.14 May 1780
(5) Sarah bap.31 Mar 1782
(6) Joseph bap.20 Jun 1784
(7) John bap.25 Feb 1787 – Sarah’s son John was born c1786 from his death record
( 8 ) Lucy Presnell bap.24 May 1789
It cannot be said that Sarah was married to Thomas Presnell and that her children were baptized at Leyton, Essex in the period 1774 to 1779. The man to whom Sarah was married, and her other children, are unknown.
(Continued in next post)
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(Continued from previous post)
Unknown Father Presnell
married
Sarah Unknown (c1737 England-27 Mar 1823 Hobart)
Mrs Sarah Presnell arrived Hobart 30 Dec 1822 on “Regalia” with some of her family.
Mother of William Presnell of Argyle Street, Glenorchy
Known children (and grandchildren) of Unknown Father Presnell and Sarah Unknown:
*(1) William Presnell (c1765 Essex -13 Jun 1839 Glenorchy)
Granted a building plot in Argyle Street, Glenorchy in 1816.
CONVICT from Essex who it is recorded was 31 years of age at his conviction in March 1797, and 74 years of age when he died in 1839 making him born about 1765.
William PRESNELL
who departed this life
13 June 1839
Aged 74 years
married? on Norfolk Island (no marriage may have taken place)
Ann Fowler (c1764-1846 TAS)
-----> mother of Joseph Abbott (13 Nov 1797 Sydney-). Joseph Abbott was the son of Joseph Abbott from Gloucester. Some believe that Joseph died in Sydney as an infant in Mar 1800. It appears however that he was 1 of the 3 children that accompanied William Presnell & Ann Fowler aboard the “City Of Edinburgh” from Norfolk Island to Tasmania in 1808, and that he was still living in Jul 1839 when his sister Sarah Presnell died (see below).
-----------> some believe she is possibly the mother of Elizabeth Rouglas (c22 Dec 1801 Norfolk Island-bef.1808 Norfolk Island). Elizabeth Rouglas was the son of John Ruglass, but no mother’s name was recorded. John Ruglass had been a de-facto of either Ann Fowler or another woman Ann Fowles in Sydney. (He was also send to Norfolk Island, and then also to Tasmania in 1808 on the “City Of Edinburgh”.) It is impossible for Ann Fowler to be the mother of this child, however as she is definitely the mother of Elizabeth Presnell born on 20 Jun 1802 and there is only 6 months between the birth of Elizabeth Rouglas and Elizabeth Presnell.
Children of William Presnell & Ann Fowler
--*(1) Elizabeth Presnell (20 Jun 1802 Norfolk Island-22 Jan 1885 TAS) [baptised 25 Jul 1802] [found in 1814 muster] (married George William Robinson in 1823 in Hobart)
--*(2) Thomas Presnell (17 Nov 1804 Norfolk island-c1805 Norfolk Island)
Note: In the book "Norfolk Island 1788 - 1813, The People and their Families", by James Hugh Donohoe published in 1986 there is a record of Thomas dying in 1805. However, no other record has been found. It is possible that there was only 1 son by the name of Thomas born in 1804 and baptised 12 months later in 1805.
--*(3) Thomas Presnell (1805 Norfolk Island-11 Nov 1838) [baptised 25 Dec 1805] [found in 1814 muster]
Thomas PRESNELL
who departed this life
11 November 1838
Aged 32 years
(in same grave as his father)
--*(4) Sarah Presnell (c1808 TAS-29 Jul 1839 TAS) [found in 1814 muster] (married Thomas Pregnell (c1800-1844) on 26 Jan 1826 in Hobart)
--*(5) James Presnell (1811 TAS-) [found in 1814 muster] [baptised 30 Nov 1811]
From 3 Sep 1808 to 2 Nov 1808 on the “City Of Edinburgh” 3 children travelled from Norfolk Island to Tasmania with William & Ann, 2 of whom were Elizabeth & Thomas. When Sarah Presnell (c1808-1839) died in 1839 it was noted that her mother and her mother’s eldest son were present. The third child who travelled from Norfolk Island to Tasmania therefore appears to be Joseph Abbott (1797-). Also Reg Wright in his book "The Forgotten Generation of Norfolk Island and Van Diemen’s Land", published in 1986 recorded that the 3 children on the “City Of Edinburgh” were Elizabeth, Thomas and “Jos”, names that he found on a victualling list.
(Continued in next post)
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Known children (and grandchildren) of Unknown Father Presnell and Sarah Unknown:
CONTINUED
In the data below you will find the 2 sets of cousins who married, children of John Presnell (c1786-1831) and Thomas Presnell (c1769-1843).
*(2) Thomas Presnell (c1769 Essex -21 Feb 1843 TAS)
married 2 Jul 1798 London
Martha Dadge (c1780 England – aft1822 England)
Children:
--*(1) John Presnell (c1805 London – England) (Married Elizabeth before 1840)
Never immigrated to Tasmania. In 1841census he is with his wife, daughter and 1 servant at Over Norton Hamlet, Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire, Victualler, aged 35, not born in the county.
--*(2) Thomas Presnell Jnr. (c1806 Oxfordshire-10 Mar 1880 TAS)[On 11 Jul 1826 married his cousin Christiana Presnell (c1808 -1870) the daughter of his uncle John Presnell (c1786-1831)]
--*(3) Harriet Presnell (c1813 Oxfordshire – 4 Oct 1881 TAS)[On 20 Jul 1836 married her cousin John Presnell (1814-1888) the daughter of her uncle John Presnell (c1786-1831)]
--*(4) George William Presnell (c1815 Oxfordshire – 21 Nov 1881 VIC)
Thomas, Thomas Jnr, Harriet & George William immigrated on “Regalia” with Thomas’s mother Sarah on 30 Dec 1822.
*(3) James Presnell (c1775 Essex -9 Sep 1844 Hobart)
married 14 May 1797 London
Elisabeth Ann Doughty (c1763-9 Dec 1854 Hobart)
Children:
--*(1) William James Presnell (bap.8 Jul 1798 London-13 May 1884 VIC) Married Anne Harvey (1802-1872) 2 Nov 1857 Adelaide, married Susan Williams (1830-1890) 4 Dec 1872 Fitzroy, VIC.
--*(2) Mary Ann Presnell (bap.4 Jan 1802 London-)
--*(3) Harriet Presnell (bap.21 Aug 1803 London -7 Dec 1894 TAS)(Harriet married David Bird in 1823 in London)
--*(4) Caroline Presnell (25 May 1806 London-)
--*(5) Abraham Presnell (c1809 England-11 Jul 1878 Hobart)(married Ann McGalsen in London in 1826)
James, his wife Elisabeth Ann, his son Abraham, his daughter-in-law Ann, and his grand-daughter Ann Sarah arrived in Hobart on 20 May 1828 on “Wanstead”.
James’ son William James had immigrated earlier on “Jessie” on 26 Feb 1821.
Also immigrating to Tasmania, date unknown (but after 1825), was James’ daughter Harriet with her husband and family.
*(4) John Presnell (c1786 Essex-20 May 1831 TAS)
married 2 Aug 1807 London
Eleanor Skelton (c1785-3 Feb 1834)
Children:
--*(1) Christiana Presnell (c1808 London -3 Sep 1870 TAS) [On 11 Jul 1826 married her cousin Thomas Presnell (c1806 -1880) the daughter of her uncle Thomas Presnell (c1769-1843)]
--*(2) William Presnell (c1810 London-bef.1826)
--*(3) Thomas Presnell (27 Jan 1812 London-bef.1831)(date of birth from baptismal record)
--*(4) John Presnell (bap.9 Jan 1814 London-29 Jul 1888 Tas) [On 20 Jul 1836 married his cousin Harriet Presnell (bap.1813–1881) the daughter of her uncle Thomas Presnell (c1769-1843)]
--*(5) Frederick Presnell (bap.30 Mar 1817 London -1 Jul 1906 Melbourne) [Married Anne Thomasine Warren on 28 Oct 1856 TAS]
--*(6) Eleanor Elizabeth Presnell (6 Jun 1819 London – 21 Aug 1891 TAS) (date of birth from baptismal revord) [Married James Dedman McGee on 24 Sep 1838 TAS]
--*(7) William Presnell (11 Jan 1826 TAS -8 Jul 1904 TAS) [Married Marcy Ellen Giblett on 8 May 1854 in Launceston]
This family arrived on “Midas” on 13 Jan 1821.
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Wow :) that is an amazing amount of information, thankyou so much for taking the time to share it. No wonder everyone was so confused lol anyway, thankyou thankyou thankyou :)
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I'm related through William Presnell and Ann Fowler (Ann arrived Third Fleet "Royal Admiral) (not to be confused with Elizabeth FOWLES or Ann FOWLES - totally different person is this Ann/Elizabeth Fowles who arrived on the First Fleet "Lady Penryn".
Although this Ann was on NI - she had returned to the mainland and appeared back in Parramatta where she married to a John HOLT in 1801. This Ann was variously known as Elizabeth Breeze, Ann Foals, Ann Fairles and Ann Fowles. This Ann could have been the person with John Rouglas/Rouglass. He had been on NI since 1790. John Rouglass also arrived in Tasmania aboard the "City of Edinburgh" with the Presnell family in 1808. No wife or children were mentioned with him.
Sarah who was born c 1808 either on Norfolk Island or when the family arrived in Tasmania, her birth is not registered. This family is so confusing and I have spent many years trying to figure everyone out. Sarah (child) is mentioned with William and Ann together with Elizabeth, Thomas, James (child) in the 1816/1817 Port Dalrymple Muster Book.
I do know that the Sarah Presnell (nee Tooth) in Sussex was actually still alive after Sarah Presnell (William's mother) had died in Tasmania. So it looks as though it's the Essex Presnell's who are related. I did find a baptism of a William Presnell on the 9/6/1776 at Leyton Essex to Thomas & Sarah.
There certainly were quite a number of Presnell's who came to Tasmania. And I think possibly they were quite a few brothers and cousins who arrived. Another problem is that most of the brothers named each of their children after other family members really creating even more paper work!.
My Sarah Presnell married Thomas PREGNELL a butcher in Hobart in 1826. They also took over the running of the "Black snake Inn" at one time from her cousin Thomas Presnell (Christiana's husband). The owner of the Inn at one time was also her father William!.
Ann Fowler/Presnell died in Hobart in 1846 and the informant was her daughter Elizabeth Chapman (nee Robinson nee Presnell). Sarah died of an Epileptic fit at the young age of 31 years.
Anyway, a bit more information for you!!
Regards
Webby.
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If your read throught the thread you will see that it agrees that the Sarah Tooth is the wrong Sarah. But the baptism of a William Presnell on the 9/6/1776 at Leyton Essex to Thomas & Sarah is also incorrect. The Leyton Essex family is the wrong family.
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Sorry....didn't mean to insinuate that the William baptised in Essex was the correct William - just that there was a William Presnell baptised at about the same time to fit his age when he was transported. No-one has proven which family William was connected with, it's not even certain whether he was from Essex at all.
Webby
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William's trial transcripts show that he was from Essex.
It's just that the demographics of the Leyton Essex family show this to be the wrong family.
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Does anyone have a record of William PRESNELL's age when he was transported? Is it recorded on his trial or transportation records, musters or any other documents? I can't see it on any that I have access to, apart from his burial.
Debra :)
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I don't think there was any age mentioned on his records, the closest I have is from his death in 1839 which gave his age as being 74 yrs. So assuming this is about right, William was probably about 31 when transported.
Webby
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Thanks for the extra information on the black snake inn webby. We have that in common :) i am hoping to visit that area of tasmania next year :) cheers, julie.
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I have read through all the material on the Presnells of Tasmania. My 3xgreat grandfather Joseph Blundell was transported in 1826 and his mother was Elizabeth Presnall/Presnell the daughter of Thomas Presnell and Sarah ? She was born in 1771 in Maidstone Kent and married in 1797 to Joseph Blundell and died in 1845.
If my Elizabeth is the sister of William Presnell (who I believe was also born in Kent) and was transported on the "Barwell" (which I am led to believe is correct) that would mean when my gr.gr.gr.grandfather was transported his uncle was already in the colony and later his grandparents also migrated.
Getting slightly confused so can anyone enlighten me on this subject.
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William Presnell (who I believe was also born in Kent) and was transported on the "Barwell" (which I am led to believe is correct)
Hi dulcie13,
Why do you think William was born in Kent, have you seen that somewhere?
Debra :)
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Hi, this family is certainly interesting - and very large!.
William's origins are still relatively unknown excepting that his mother was Sarah (bc: 1737)and arrived from England with some family members on the "Regalia" in 1823. Of course there were also other family members who had arrived 'free' as well. Have no idea how many were left in England.
William had quite a few brothers & sisters!. To make matters more confusing, the Presnell brothers usually named their children after their siblings as well!.
William was certainly transported on the "Barwell" to NSW then to Norfolk Island then on the "City of Edinburgh" to Hobart in 1808.
I don't have a sister Elizabeth on my data for him - but who knows with this family, would be great to find the marriage of the Leyton Essex -Thomas & Sarah Presnell, to get an idea of the time frame as William was born c 1765/66 and your Elizabeth in 1771.
The problem I have with this, is that, although there was a William born to Thomas & Sarah in Leyton in 1776 - so that date probably means that this was not 'my' William - he would have been too young.
George Presnell was baptised in March 1772 in Leyton....looks to be the first of the Leyton Presnell's documented to a Thomas & Sarah Presnell.
After reading through the thread I had a look for James Presnell & Sarah Presnell nee Tooth in Piddinghoe Sussex. They both died in 1817 in Piddinghoe - James in March aged 79 yrs and Sarah in July aged 73 years. So that probably puts to rest the 'Sarah Tooth' saga, as Sarah Presnell was alive and kicking in 1817 and didn't die in Hobart until 1823.
Did Elizabeth Presnell/Blundell & Joseph marry in England? Did Elizabeth come to Australia/Tasmania as well?
Would like to know a little more about these Presnell/Blundell's.
Cheers
Webby :)
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Hello
I was given this information by another Presnell researcher the family as I have it is children of Thomas and Sarah who died in Tasmania: William born Chelmsford Kent 1765 died Tas 1839, Sarah b 1767, Mary b 1769, Elizabeth (my ancestor) b 1771,Thomas b 1773 in Sussex, Jenny b 1774, James b 1778 in Essex died in Tasmania 1844, Phillis b 1778, Anne b 1780 in Essex, Sarah born 1782 in Essex, Joseph b 1784 in Essex died West Hampshire UK 1793, John b 1786 Essex died Tasmania 1831 and Lucy b 1789.
If these are all Thomas and Sarah's children she had the last child aged 47/48 not uncommon. How far Essex is from Sussex and Kent I do not know but they often travelled around from village to village.
Joseph Blundell comes from a long line going back to 1540 at this stage and he and Elizabeth were married in Parish Church Kent on 7.11.1797 and both died in Maidstone. They had six children between 1798 and 1814 all born in Kent. Their son Joseph Jnr. was transported in 1826 for life and was already married so co-habited here in the colony and had eleven children.
So that is why I am intrigued by the posting and information given to me that just maybe Joseph Jnrs uncle and grandparents were already here in Tasmania when he arrived on the "Marquis of Huntley"
Maybe if I keep digging this might be solved. Regards, Dulcie
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Hi Dulcie,
...children of Thomas and Sarah who died in Tasmania: William born Chelmsford Kent 1765 died Tas 1839, Sarah b 1767, Mary b 1769, Elizabeth (my ancestor) b 1771,Thomas b 1773 in Sussex, Jenny b 1774, James b 1778 in Essex died in Tasmania 1844, Phillis b 1778, Anne b 1780 in Essex, Sarah born 1782 in Essex, Joseph b 1784 in Essex died West Hampshire UK 1793, John b 1786 Essex died Tasmania 1831 and Lucy b 1789.
Can you ask the other researcher to give you dates and places of baptism for those children that you have listed?
Debra :)
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Hi Dulcie, it looks as though the "Thomas & Sarah Presnell's" may be two quite different families and the children have been added together?.
Firstly, William bc 1765 is the ancestor I haven't been able to positively identify with any Presnell family. The only thing we know for certain is that his mother's name was Sarah!.
The Piddinghoe Sussex Presnells are as follows - these children born to James (not Thomas) Presnell & Sarah Tooth.
All this family are from Piddinghoe, Sussex and most seemed to have stayed in Piddinghoe. I think we have discounted this Sarah Presnell/Tooth as not being our William's mother Sarah. But I do keep records on most of the Presnell's that I have come across whilst researching and I have the following people.
The children born to this couple are:
1. Sarah - bapt 8/3/1767 in Piddinghoe
2. Mary - 17/5/1769
3. Thomas - 10/5/1772 and buried 16/6/1772
4, Jenny - 17/4/1774
5, Elizabeth - 11/8/1776 and buried 10/12/1776
6, Phillis - 12/1/1778 and buried 1/2/1779
7. James - 11/6/1780 and buried 7/2/1803
8. Thomas Hugh - 27/10/1782, married (1) 17/4/1801 in Bishopstone, Sussex to Sarah Gorringe and (2) in 1808 in Rodmell, to Charlotte Harris. He died 1/3/1825 in Piddinghoe.
The parents James & Sarah married in Piddinghoe in 1765 and as from my previous post they also died there within months of one another.
Looks as though there are a couple of families that have been 'put' together.
The other Presnell's I have are the Leyton Essex Presnell's - these kids born to Thomas Presnell & Sarah (unknown). These are the couple I don't have a marriage date for.
1. George - 22/3/1772 in Leyton, Essex
2. Thomas - 23/1/1774,
3. William - 9/6/1776
4. James - 7/6/1778
5. Ann - 14/5/1780
6. Sarah - 31/3/1782
7. Joseph - 20/6/1784
8. Richard - c 1785 and died Jan 1786
9. John - 25/2/1787
10. Lucy - 24/5/1789
11. Jane - 22/3/1795 and buried 7/2/1796.
So as you can see, two quite different families. Unfortunately, neither my William or your Elizabeth appear in either (drat!). At least you can see that these two families are quite separate.
Cheers
Webby ;D
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I don't think I've ever come across anything to say that Sarah Presnell's husband was ever in the colony.
Her death notice in the "Mercury" newspaper said, "that she arrived in the colony with members of her family......(didn't actually mention a husband and as she was 85 or so, you would have thought a husband of around the same age would have got a mention??).
All the article mentions is that she was the 'mother of William Presnell of Argyle Street, leaving a numerous family both in this colony and in England to mourn her loss. etc.etc.
Webby :)
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Hi,
Just to clarify what I have found re William:
He was not born Chelmsford Kent. Chelmsford is in Essex.
On his shipping record it had Hadlow Kent as his birth place.
William listed 4 parishes that he was from when arrested so obviously not the most reliable person.
As for travelling around so far afield, William's partner in crime was Simon Moulds from Hereford over near the Welsh borders.
The Essex Presnells seem to have immigrated to USA.
The Kent family has William and Margaret as parents.
I don't think the Piddinghoe family are counted out yet. :)
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Hi Sangil,
;D Welcome to RootsChat ;D
On his shipping record it had Hadlow Kent as his birth place.
I don't recall seeing this before, which record was it?
I don't think the Piddinghoe family are counted out yet. :)
In what way do you think the Piddinghoe family are related to the Tasmanian PRESNELLs?
Debra :)
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Hi Debra,
It was on a document on a family tree sent to me. I don't think I can count the Sussex family out because Sarah and James married in 1765 and their first child according to my records was born Sarah in 1767. William could have been born in 1765/66 and not recorded.
These are just my thoughts. I have a friend in UK chasing this for me.
Cheers
Sandra
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Hi, a bit further information regarding the Piddinghoe Sussex Presnells/Prisnolls.
Sarah Presnell nee Tooth was buried at Piddinghoe on the 25/7/1817 aged 73yrs. James Presnell was buried 13/3/1817 aged 79 yrs, also in Piddinghoe.
William's mother, Sarah Presnell was alive and well at that time. Sarah didn't leave England for Tasmania until a few years after that date, arriving in 1822.
The marriage of Sarah Tooth & James Presnel (lab) was the 26/5/1765 at Piddinghoe, Sussex. Another interesting note is that James Presnel was also listed as being James Russsell.
Regards
Webby