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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Kilkenny => Topic started by: kenneth cooke on Monday 15 March 10 04:00 GMT (UK)
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My Gr Gr Gr grandfather was Michael Trait of Muckalee, abt 1805-1887. His first wife was Mary Quinlan m. 1828, 2nd was Margt Lalor, mar.1848, and came to Australia 1852 with 2 adult daughters, Cath. & Bridget. Two sons Martin & Thomas came later as well as several nephews, Patrick & Thomas, also Kyren.
Other Traits went to USA, and some are still in Kilkenny.
Traits seem to have come to Ireland about mid 1700s, as Trait, Treat, Treight and Van Treight.They were in England from about 1550s.
Other names from Kilkenny are:
Lyons & Coonan from Muckalee, Butler, Byrne.
I have been in contact with some Traits & Coonan from Kilkenny. I am trying to find where the Traits came from- ? France, Holland etc.
My grandmother was Anastasia Trait, b. & d. Australia.
Ken Cooke
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One common belief among the Irish, US and Australian Traits is that the name came from France. It is believed to be an abbreviation of Traiteur, an occupation surname meaning 'caterer'. There were, and still are today, Traits in France, also Traite, and Traiteur.
Among some of the earliest in Kilkenny are Trait, Treat, Treight and Van Treight, which sounds like a Dutch name, but the spelling of 'Treight' can only be English.
Did Trait/Traiteur first move to Holland from France and become Van Trait ?Then moved to England, where some cleric wrote their name as Van Treight ?
Why would French people leave France to go to Holland or England in the 16th century ? To escape religious persecution, of course, like the Huguenots.
The first Traits appear in England a few years after Henry VIII was declared "Supreme Head in Earth of the Church of England" in 1534.
Ken
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The plaque on Michael Trait's grave at the Buninyong cemetery, (near Ballarat) reads:
"In memory of our pioneering ancestors
who travelled to Australia over 152 years
ago.
Michael Trait 1803-13.12.1887, Ballyfoyle,
Co. Kilkenny, Ireland, Loving husband of
Margaret Trait,(nee Lawler) 1824-7.6.1884.
Michael and Margaret Trait arrived at Geelong
on 31 March 1882 on the ship ‘Cambodia’.
They arrived with Michael’s daughters Bridget
and Catherine, and Margaret’s son Michael.
The Cambodia had departed from Plymouth,
on 3 December 1851.
Loving father of Catherine, Bridget, Thomas
and Martin. Loving parents of Michael, John,
John, Rose, Mary, Ellen, Patrick, George and
Ellen."
Catherine married Edmund (Ned) Byrne, who was also a passenger on the Cambodia, and Bridget mar. Martin Maloney. Michael's first wife, Mary Quinlan (my ancestor) had died, about 1848.
Ken
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Kenneth
My name is Evelynne - I was born in Melbourne and my grandmother was Mary Ann Trait whose grandfateher was Michael Trait born 1803 Ballyfoyle and married Mary (Bridget) Quinlan and later Margaret Lawler.
I am going to be in UK in the New Year and also to Ireland.
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Hi Evelynne
Nice to hear from you. I've been in touch with your brother a few times over the years. Your grandmother and mine were sisters.
Actually 'old' Michael Trait was her Gr. grandfather.
I visited Ireland last year and went to Kilkenny, where I met a few Traits.
I saw the ruins of the old house where the Lyons family lived. (Mary Ann's mother was Annie Lyons)
I'll contact you off-line and give you my contact details.
Ken
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hi Kenneth
How r u able to do indirect?
You could email my brother for my email address.
Evelynne
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Once you have three posts you will have full access to the Personal Message System.You can use this to exchange private messages with Ken - including email addresses, details of living people etc
see : http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
Leinster Moderator
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Tithe defaulters Kilkenny;
Kryan Trait; Farmer
Ballyfoyle, Dunmore Mucklaee, Kilmodum
1841
Barony; Gowan & Fassasineen
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Jack
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Headstones in Muckalee cemetery;
Michael Butler; Clopook; 19/6/1962 (71)
wife-Mary; 29/6/1979 (76)
his father-Patrick; 24/3/1910 (80)
his mother- Brigid; 29/4/1929 (68)
his twin bro-Martin-4/3/1910 (18)
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Eamond Butler; Knockghanbally 1924
wife-Mary; 1908
son-John; 1941
son-Thomas; 1948
son-William; 1956
son-James; 28/11/1968
son-Michael; 17/5/1981 (89)
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James Byrne; Muckalee; 6/2/1983 (84)
also his parents, interred here.
wife; Bridget (Bridie) 10/4/1987 (78)
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James Byrne; Damerstown; 27/6/1989 (71)
wife-Johanna (nee Shore); 14/6/2007 (75)
--
Daniel Lyons; Knockshanbally; 2/6/1902 (74)
================
Jack
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I've just noticed the last four messages. I was not notified about them. I've just fixed that and will now answer them.
I've been in touch with my second cousin, Evelynne, by phone.
Thanks to Seanmac for the info about the graves & the tithe defaulter.
Tithes were an annual sum paid to the established church (C. of Ireland) by all landholders, regardless of religion. Naturally there was great resentment among Catholics, especially when times were bad. (Correct me if I'm wrong about this)
Kyren Trait, tithe defaulter in 1841 (5 years before the famine started) was the father of Kyren, b. 1835, who came to Australia in 1853. He made his way to Geelong, Victoria, where his uncle Michael (my ancestor) then lived.
Kyren snr, I believe died before 1849, as his wife Mary was then listed as the tenant.
Re the headstones of Butlers & Byrnes. So far I have not sorted out the Butlers
or Byrnes. As for Lyons of Knockshanbally, that is where our Lyons ancestor, Daniel c. 1830-1893, came from. (He came to Australia and his daughter Anne married Michael, grandson of 'old' Michael Trait.)
So, the other Daniel Lyons 1828-1902, of the same place was probably our Daniel's cousin.
Ken
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Check wandesforde estate records. Wandesfordes brought many english to castlecomer/muckalee area.
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Thanks Maxalf
You write “ Wandersfordes brought many English to Castlecomer/Muckalee area”. That would be a plausible explanation for the Traits’ arrival in Ireland.
I wonder what period that would have been, and what the sources are.
I have had a look through the summary of the Prior-Wandersforde papers and found one reference, “Traight’s holding, Castlecomer” from 1843, but no details.
There were references to assisted emigration of tenants from Ireland, 1840s & 1850s, but I found nothing about bringing people from England.
It would have to have been in the mid-1700s or earlier.
Traits were noted in England from 1544, first in the south-west, then spreading to London and beyond. The first record from Ireland was the marriage of Catherine Van Treight to Thos Scott, Diocese of Ossory (Kilkenny) in 1762, then one in Dublin (C of I) 1782, the rest in Kilkenny.
Later there was a Charles Traite, bapt. 28.1.1836 at St Mary’s Kilkenny, father Mr Traite (received into RC church), mother not named, sponsor Eliz Murphy. (This entry shows, I believe, the last Trait to convert.)
Ken
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Prior wandesford papers in national archives have name of tennants leasing land. they brought english skilled workers in from mid to late 1600s. mainly iron workers and miners. They became the middlemen by re letting their land to locals. The family I am researching also came in this way. The Wandesfords had estates in Yorkshire in england.
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Apparently some landlords assisted their tenants to emigrate. Sounds like Christian charity, but there was one condition- they could not transfer the lease to friends or relatives, it reverted to the landlord. In this way, landlords eliminated middlemen, and collected rents direct from tenants.
I don’t know if our Traits were ‘assisted’ to emigrate in 1852, but I do know that they were not on Wandersforde land. We find them in Griffiths Evaluation 1849-50, in the Parish of Kilmadum, townland of Ballyfoyle, owned by an absentee English landlord, Vice Admiral Sir Josiah Coghill:
Thomas Trait, Michael Trait and Mary Trait.
They each rented a house, land (about 17 acres), & office (barn) for L7.10sh to L8 p.a.
Michael was our ancestor, Thomas was his brother (stayed in Ireland) and Mary was Kyren’s (another brother) widow. Her son, Kyren jnr came to Australia.
However, there were Traits in Castlecomer. They may have started there, and then spread to other parts.
Ken
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Their immediate landlord may have been as you named but he may have been a middle man. Check the landowners of Ireland list 1876,
PS. I know Traits of Kilkenny. Thomas Trait is an electrician locally.
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Thanks for that Maxalf
Coghill was no middleman. He died in 1850 and his son Sir Jocelyn got the land. He is noted in the list you quoted, 1876.
Sir Jocelyn Coghill of Belvidere, Drumcondra, 4564 acres, L2622 p.a.
I met some of the Traits in 2010. I think Thomas was one of them.
His late brother was Patrick, whose wife Marie I met too. Lots of people in Kilkenny town knew the Traits. Even the receptionist at the hotel was related.
Ken
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Did you check out the new database on findmypast.ie........petty sessions courts and prison registers. and others......Traits mentioned
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Trait .......Tithe defaulters list......Testament of collector
Memorialist having appointed a Proctor for the year 1831, was prevented from taking the usual proceeding of valuation of crops, the said Proctor being then immediately seized, after leaving Dunmore Glebe House, by a party of men threatening to have blood, who swore him never to value crops again, and compelled him to cut his Valuation Books before them, an Affidavit to this effect was sworn before T. Green Resident Magistrate. No further steps were taken by Memorialist to recover his tithes for 1831 as it would have been attended with unhappy results, loss of property or perhaps of life, the Parish being in a very unsettled state in consequence of which, the Local Authorities have established a Police Station in Dunmore Park, not far from Glebe House, Memorialist has been noticed by White Feet to desist from endeavouring to recover Glebe Land, under threat of having the Glebe House burned, and was obliged to desist (crossed out) relinquish law proceedings in consequence. Any attempt, it may be seen, from this statement would have been equally fruitless to recover tithe. The country here is in a state of anarchy or barbarism.
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That's very interesting, Maxalf.
I had heard before that Kyren Trait was a tithe defaulter in 1841, perhaps that was the wrong year. Naturally there was great resistance from Catholics to paying tithes to the C of I clergy. Sometimes a defaulter went to prison.
I'll try to find the details online.
Thanks again,
Ken
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Tithe defaulters
First name Kyran
Last name Trait
County Kilkenny
Occupation farmer
Place Ballyfoyle
Parish Dunmore, Muckalee, Kilmadum
Union of parishes Dunmore, Muckully and Kilmodum
Barony Gowran & Fassadineen
Census Year 1841
Number of houses occupied 323
Number of families 331
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Almanacs
First name Last name County Year Section Town/Street
George Von Trait 1835 Police Department Rathmolion, Summerhill
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JOHN TRAIT KILKENNY 1884 Bassett's Kilkenny Guide & Directory 1884
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Total records 4 for Griffith's valuation in Land and estates
First name Last name County Year Townland Parish Source View
THOMAS TRAIT KILKENNY 1850 GROVE, OR CRAMERSGROVE KILKIERAN Griffiths valuations More Details
THOMAS TRAIT KILKENNY 1850 BALLYFOYLE KILMADUM Griffiths valuations More Details
MICHAEL TRAIT KILKENNY 1850 BALLYFOYLE KILMADUM Griffiths valuations More Details
MARY TRAIT KILKENNY 1850 BALLYFOYLE KILMADUM Griffiths valuations More Details
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Did you want a list of births/marraiges....ETC
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Thanks for all info,
I have a lot of BDM details. Where do yours come from ? I may already have them.
Ken
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rootsireland/ancestry/familysearch/.............
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Well, if it's not too much trouble, I'd very much appreciate the info.
I was hoping when I went to Kilkenny (only for a weekend) to visit Rothe house and the library on the Monday morning, but the library was closed on Mondays and the lady at Rothe House was away.
Do you need anything looked up in Australia ?
Ken
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Rootsireland is connected with rothe house........the records are not complete but give enough to match. the full records must be purchased. I will post outline.
Rothe house will charge an arm and a..............
The three sites are free to search and if you cross reference the results then the records that are of relevance can be purchased online.
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Record
Catherin Trait 20 Apr 1864 Gowran, Kilkenny, Ireland John Trait, Ellen Walsh
View Record
Margaret Trait 8 Nov 1865 Tiscoffin, Kilkenny, Ireland Patt Trait, Betty Tyrrell
View Record
Patt Trait 1 Apr 1866 Tiscoffin, Kilkenny, Ireland John Trait, Ellen Walsh
View Record
Martin Trait 26 Oct 1867 Tiscoffin, Kilk, Ireland John Trait, Ellen Walshe
View Record
Martin Trait 26 Oct 1867 Kilkenny, Ireland John Trait, Ellen Walshe
View Record
Eliza Trait 12 Apr 1869 Tiscoffin, Kilk, Ireland Patt Trait, Betty Tyrral
View Record
Eliza Trait 12 Apr 1869 Kilkenny, Ireland Patt Trait, Betty Tyrral
View Record
Mary Trait 21 Mar 1870 Tiscoffin, Kilk, Ireland John Trait, Ellen Walsh
View Record
Mary Trait 21 Mar 1870 Kilkenny, Ireland John Trait, Ellen Walsh
View Record
John Trait 24 Jun 1871 Tiscoffin, Kilk, Ireland John Trait, Ellen Walsh
View Record
John Trait 24 Jun 1871 Kilkenny, Ireland John Trait, Ellen Walsh
View Record
John Trait 12 Feb 1873 Ireland John Trait, Ellen Walshe Trait
View Record
Michael Trait 29 Jun 1875 Kilkenny, Ireland John Trait, Ellen Walshe
View Record
Sarah Comerford 15 Jan 1865 Castlecomer, Kilkenny, Ireland John Comerford, Mary Trait
View Record
Ellen Lalor 19 Oct 1879 ...iscoffin, Kilkenny, Kilkenny, Ireland Patt Lalor, Mary Trait
View Record
Andrew Masterson 8 Feb 1865 Tiscoffin, Kilkenny, Ireland John Masterson, Rose Trait
View Record
Catherine Masterson 7 Apr 1867 Tiscoffin, Kilk, Ireland John Masterson, Rose Trait
View Record
Catherine Masterson 7 Apr 1867 Kilkenny, Ireland John Masterson, Rose Trait
View Record
Patrick Masterson 17 Jan 1870 Tiscoffin, Kilk, Ireland John Masterson, Rose Trait
View Record
Patrick Masterson 17 Jan 1870 Kilkenny, Ireland John Masterson, Rose Trait
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England, Alien Arrivals, 1810-1811, 1826-1869 about Mr Trait
Name: Trait
Port of Arrival: Southampton, England
Arrival Date: 13 May 1851
Port of Departure: Le Havre, France
Ship: South Western
Country of Origin/Native of: France
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England, Alien Arrivals, 1810-1811, 1826-1869 about Trait
Name: Trait
Port of Arrival: Dover, England
Arrival Date: 31 Jul 1851
Port of Departure: Calais, France
Ship: Undine
Country of Origin/Native of: Germany
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Yes, an arm and two legs, I've heard.
The BDM have a few new ones, esp. the other names. I haven't kept up with the married females very well.
The French & German ones I would discount. We know that Trait is a French name, and Tratt is German, in any case too late to be related.
I found a Trait in Australia whose father was a Trott !
If you live in Ireland, you must be a night owl.
Thanks again,
Ken
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rootsireland site v slow........
click to search
Trait births, Ireland (https://www.familysearch.org/search/records/index#count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Atrait%7E%20%2Bbirth_place%3Aireland%7E&birth_place0=3) (Familysearch)
Moderator Note : Link Shrunk
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I live in County Kilkenny ..........I am researching another family and they are from the same area and are down the alphabet near the name medlar.
PS. muckalee was in the parish of Gowran for some time. Disregard the different parish/townland names as they are all very close......10K radius
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To Maxalf
Re your reply No 17-
Were these details of the specific case against Kyren Trait ? They were about to value and sieze his farm produce when his neighbours (white feet boys) intervened ? I haven't been able to find the text.
Ken
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Sample from rootsireland
Church Baptism Treat Adam 1802 Co. Kilkenny
Church Baptism Treat John 1816 Co. Kilkenny
Church Baptism Trait Elizabeth 1817 Co. Kilkenny
Church Baptism Treat Johanna 1817 Co. Kilkenny
Church Baptism Traite Charles 1836 Co. Kilkenny
Church Baptism Treat Nr 1849 Co. Kilkenny
Church Baptism Treat Margaret 1859 Co. Kilkenny
Church Baptism Treat Judith 1861 Co. Kilkenny
Church Baptism Treat Thomas 1861 Co. Kilkenny
Church Baptism Treat Bridget 1862 Co. Kilkenny
The farm valued is the one later in griffiths......PS Kieran or Ciaran(KYRAN)
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Did you want to skype...........I am a slow typist......Can you send email address privately?
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The report is a general report but is attached to his default............Tithe wars kilkenny
Also search naming pattern......They seem to follow
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To Maxalf
Re Prior Wandersforde Papers,
You say there are lists of tenants on W'forde lands. Are there any lists of miners etc who were brought from England ?
I wonder if the name Trait appears on any lists. That would be a quick way to check, rather than going through the whole document.
I'm in two minds about ordering it from Dublin.
Ken
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To Maxalf-
I've sent an email to The Nat Library to find out how to access the papers.
There are 132 boxes, which seems pretty daunting.
Meanwhile, you wrote, Post 12:
"The family I am researching also came in this way." Did you actually find them mentioned in the P/W papers ?
Ken
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The name Trait-
The experts tell us that the name Trait(e) comes from French, and is an abbreviation of ‘traiteur’, an occupational surname, meaning ‘caterer’.
Both forms, Traiteur and Trait/ Traite, as well as ‘Le Trait’ and ‘Du Trait’ are to be found in France today. Some Traits went to Spain in the 1700s and became ‘Traite’ pron. ‘try-teh’.
‘Trait’ was (and still is) pronounced [tret] in French. This soon became ‘trate’ in England, but it was written in many different ways, such as Trait, Trat, Trate, Tratte, Traite, Trayte, Treat, Treight, Traight, etc., all pronounced as ‘trate’.
Today there are still several variations in spelling, but the name is usually pronounced ‘trate’, although Treat is an exception. In Shakespeare’s time (early 1600s) ‘ea’ was pronounced ‘ay’ but the sound changed to ‘ee’ and ‘treat’ has followed the trend.
Also, there are several entries for ‘Van Treight’ in Ireland, (even Von Trait) but none in England. The name would seem to be Dutch or Flemish, but the spelling ‘Treight’ can only be English. ‘Van Triet’ (pron. ‘treet’) is found in Holland and South Africa, while Triett is noted in England from 1723 to 1826.
I believe these names come from the Dutch “ Van’T Riet ” which is an abbreviation of ‘Van Het Riet’ (‘of the reeds’). It seems to be a location name, i.e. ‘from the reed district’. (There is also ‘Rietsnijder’ or Reedcutter, an occupational name)
I believe that it is just a coincidence that both Trait and Van Treight were found in Kilkenny about the same time. Ours were Traits, and originated in France.
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I am researching the Lalor/Lawler family of Laois & Kilkenny and notice that MichaelTrait's wife Margaret (1824-1844) was the daughter of Darby & Mary Lalor. He appears in the Tithe Books at Wieldfield, Muckalee (1828). Do you have anything more on him? Mu interest is in looking at Edward Lalor (c 1813-1866) who married Mary Dowling and lived at Muckalee from 1840 to 1853, then migrated to Australia. SOme of my other Lalor families of interest lived at Dunmore, which seems to be part of the Muckaleeparish.
John Cherry
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John,
I'm afraid I don't have anything on Darby Lalor & Mary Delany, other than their names on Margaret's Death Cert. He was a farmer.
There were a few mistakes on the cert.- 20 years in Australia is wrong, they came in 1852, so it should be 32 years.
She was 60 years. This agrees with the ship's list from 1852, when she was 28, so born c. 1824. She died on 7 June 1884, (not 1844).
I remember trying to find if 'Darby' was an abbreviation for another name, but I never did.
Margt was Michael's second wife, so she is not my ancestor. I'm descended from Thomas, eldest son of Michael and Mary Quinlan, who died in Ireland.
I have a marriage date for Michael & Margt- 1.9.1848, but I don't know where that comes from.
If I find anything more, I'll let you know.
Ken
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Re the name 'Darby'
I believe it came from 'Dermot' but it was also quite common for someone named 'Jeremiah' to be called 'Darby'.
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Thornback Road cemetery; Troyswood Kilkenny;
Patrick Trait; Keatingstown
b. 19/10/1945
d. 30/8/1997
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Jack
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Very overgrown and small graveyard.
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Seanmac,
Thanks for the photo.
I know Patrick's family; they are very active in Kilkenny.
Ken
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HI Ken, I am researching my husbands trait family, they are descended from Michael Trait and Mary Quinlan who emigrated to Australia, their great grandson Michael Francis Moloney emigrated to New Zealand and is my husbands ancestor. I have been reading all the posts on this forum with much interest!!!
Do you have any info on Michael Traits parents? I have some conflicting names and cannot find anything online. Anything else you would like to share would be gratefully accepted.
many thanks
Leah Hourston
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Hello Leah,
Welcome to the Forum. I have a list of the Maloney children, but that line goes no further.
It's many years since I researched the "other Traits", in fact, I'm surprised that I don't have more info on them. Never mind, perhaps you can fill in the gaps.
New Zealand rings a bell. Did Michael Francis marry his 'girl friend' who had followed him to NZ or is that a different one ?
I have listed nine children for Martin Maloney and Bridget Trait, but I don't seem to have followed them up.
'Old' Michael Trait c.1805-1887 arrived at Geelong on 31 March 1852. On his Death Cert. his father's name is Patrick Trait and his mother's is Mary Butler. I don't know how reliable that is.
I believe Michael's brothers were Thomas and Kyren; some of their sons came out too.
Thomas married Bridget Quinlan who I believe was Mary's sister.
You probably know that Michael remarried in Ireland after Mary died, to Margaret Lalor.
They came out with their new born son, Michael jnr. as well as Michael's daughters Catherine & Bridget. His sons Martin & Thomas came later, after first arriving in Brisbane.
You need to post three replies on this forum before you can contact me 'off-line'. Then I can send you my Trait Family History by email, and a family tree by post. I am not allowed to show my email address on the forum.
So, two more posts to go. That shouldn't take long. By the way, do you live in NZ ?
Cheers for now. Ken
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Hi, thanks for the quick reply! yes we are in NZ. Our Michael Francis Moloney came to NZ with his brother, they married sisters in NZ. One of Michael's daughters is still living in Invercargill, although she said her parents never really talked about australia or the family there. I am happy to share what I have but probably dont have much that you dont know. I really like to get photos and stories to bring the family tree to life.
Leah
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Hi, we have plenty of family stories, but not many photos.
I have one though, of Michael's youngest son, Patk. Edw. 1861-1945. He looks Spanish !
(The Traits are supposed to have come from France) His grandson is still living, in his eighties.
I think you have plenty of info that I haven't got, as I never really researched the Maloneys.
Re the young man who did a 'runner' to NZ, I think it was one of the Byrnes (Michael's eldest was Catherine, she married a Ned (Edmund) Byrne, also Irish, of course.)
Cheers, Ken
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Hi again, I noticed that micheal traits grand son michael moloney and his wife margaret nee Daly died at quite a young age - 44 and 35 yrs. do you know what happened to them?
cheers
Leah
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I have to admit I don't know much about the Maloneys. I can't recall that anyone spoke about them. I only heard of the name when I started on the Trait history, about 30-35 years ago.
I have noted, on a written Trait pedigree, the first generation born in Australia:
Bridget Trait 1831-1890 (or 1909) mar (1) 1852 Martin Maloney 1828-1868, (2) 1870 John Robinson.
Nine Maloney births:
Mary Anne 1852-1941 mar. Wm Gleeson, Martin 1855-1928, Michael 1856-1902, Margt. 1857-1895, Thomas 1858, John 1858-1923 mar. Cath Steele, Bridget 1861, Edw. 1863-1932, Daniel 1867-68
I didn't know that Michael married Margt Daly. I have heard of the Gleesons, but I can't find anything just now. I have a few sources to look up, but, as I said, I have never done extensive research on the Maloneys. To find out the cause of death you would have to get their Death Certs. from the Victorian Reg. of BDM , Melbourne. They cost at least $25 each. Or you could try online. Google in "BDM Vic".
I suggest you look up a free site for old newspapers, called TROVE. It contains papers from Aust & NZ and you find court cases, some BD & M, accidents, crimes etc. I had a quick look for your Patk Edw.but found nothing. Just google in "trove newspapers".
Anyway, I'll go through what I've got and let you know if I turn up anything relevant.
Ken
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Is it Maloney or Moloney ? I prefer the first one. The other reminds me of the ‘cocktail’.
I have gone through Nellie Lyons’ letters, about 50 pages of them, from around 1999. Nellie married Jack Lyons, a ‘cousin’ of my mother’s. Nellie is also related, her maiden name was Butler. She is descended from Mary Anne Gleeson, nee Maloney. Nellie & Jack are now deceased. I have not tried to put the excerpts in any order. She writes:
“Did you include Frances Gleeson among Mary Ann Moloney’s children ? Albert was her last child, born 1898 I think”
“I wrote to you last year that Bridget Moloney (/Robinson nee Trait) was buried with her first husband, Martin Moloney at the old cemetery in Ballarat. Martin & Bridget are my Grt Grt Grandparents”
“Buried in the same grave are Martin Moloney, Daniel Maloney, Bridget Robinson, age 73, Thomas Gleeson d.1919, 25 yrs. When I queried her age, they said that’s the age on the computer. Thomas is a younger son of Mary Ann Gleeson nee Moloney”
“Bridget Robinson died 10.2.1890, 73 yrs. In Maloney’s grave E1 21 9R2. From Ballarat Cem. Files
“From Federation Index: Bridget Robinson died 1890, 58 yrs, parents unknown, Warrenheip. This is more the age that Bridget would have been.”
“Martin Maloney’s death cert. puts his age at 40, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he was 50. Most of the Traits along with a lot of the others signed their names with an X so it’s reasonable to think they couldn’t add up either !”
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“Mary Ann (no surname) (1852-1941) mar.1873 William Gleeson (1851-1930) at Geelong Vic. Issue: William 1875, Sarah 1875 lived 4 mths., Bridget 1876-1913, Benjamin died 1862 (my comment- he was born 1886), Mary Anne 1886, Edward 1883, John 1867, Kate 1877 (died 15 years ago ?1984) mar. John Donnelly, Michael 1888. I think there were a couple more boys.”
“Notice Bridget Trait (actually Maloney) married John Robinson as Bridget Trait”
“Maybe the Moloneys may have distanced themselves from the mother (Bridget) when she married an Englishman (Robinson) because that would be one of the worst things you could do at that time. The Irish are a little more tolerant now.”
RE PRESENT DAY MALONEYS: “Yes, that William Moloney must be a son of Mary Anne’s brother. His son in NSW is waiting for his brother to get out of hospital, as Bill’s brother did a family tree but he doesn’t know what he came up with.(from 1999)”
“I think Mary Anne Moloney & W. Gleeson had 10 or more children. Some died in infancy but some in their 20s. They mainly had consumption but some of the boys liked to drink & fight. One was nick-named ‘Firey’ and also Bert, my aunt said they were wild."
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Headstone in Glasnevin Cemetery Dublin.
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erected by Thomas Van Treight of Castlecomer Co Kilkenny in memory of wife-Eleanor
25/12/1846 (21)
child-Catherine; 7/4/1851 (4)
both who are interred in Margee Co Antrim.
also his wife-Sophia Mary; 2/1/1852 (25)
and whose remains are herein deposited.
=========
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Thanks for that Jack,
I think I have his second marriage, but unfortunately the bride's name was not recorded.
Thomas Van Treight & xxx Reg. Dublin Nth. 1850
Also:
Mar. Catherine Van Treight & Thomas Scott, Diocese of Ossory (Kilkenny) 1762
Baptism- Helena Van Treight 62 Cook St. Dublin, 6.10.1857 (born 29/9) St. Audoen RC
Parents Thomas & Catherine V.T., Sponsors Maria Coonan & Denis Laplin
There are several entries for ‘Van Treight’ in Ireland, but none in England. The name would seem to be Dutch or Flemish, but the spelling ‘Treight’ can only be English. ‘Van Triet’ (pron. ‘treet’) is found in Holland and South Africa, while Triett is noted in England from 1723 to 1826. I believe these names come from the Dutch “Van’T Riet ” which is an abbreviation of ‘Van Het Riet’ (of the reeds), a locality or occupation name (reed-cutters). It is probably just a coincidence that both Trait and Van Treight were found in Kilkenny about the same time.
But, the fact is, we don't really know for certain if they are related or not.
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Quinlans that married Trait are from Graigwood in shankill parish. It is near Castlewarren and Muckalee
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Thanks for that Maxalf. Glad for any help I can get.
What is the source for that info ? I must say I am doubtful, as our Quinlans came from Ballyvalden, to the east of Kilkenny. At least, Bridget did, who married Michael Trait in 1828 in Paulstown.
Ken
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Graigwood is in Ballyvalden............The house that Quinlans lived in is still there.........There are records of Marraiges in Goresbridge/Paulstown records. Quinlans are direct ancestors of mine.
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Here is the relevant entry from my summary:
"Patrick Trait and Mary Butler are given as the parents of our ancestor, Michael, (my 3x Gr. grandfather) who was born about 1805, and who first brought the Trait name to Australia.
Thomas Trait, his brother, married Bridget Quinlan of Ballinvalley in Paulstown on 8.2.1825. Their two sons, Thomas jnr, abt 1826, and Patrick 1832, both came to Australia.
Then Michael married Mary Quinlan (Bridget’s sister ?) in Paulstown on 1.2.1828. She lived in Ballyvalden and there were a number of Quinlans there. (Ballinvalley & Ballyvalden may turn out to be the same place).
The parish priest in 1996 said that the old Quinlan home was still standing. Michael’s name was spelt ‘Treat’ and witnesses were John Byrne and (another) Mary Quinlan. We know of four children born to Michael and Mary- Catherine 1829-1892, Bridget 1831-1890, Martin 1834-1888, and Thomas 1837-1899."
Ken
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Quinlans have died out but have many descendants living locally. Both locations you mention and the families in each were related. I have a tree done for one line.
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I am helping an older relative who is a descendant of Edward Byrne who married Catherine Trait.
Would appreciate any help on Trait family in Australia.
Thanks.
Jane Cleary
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I don't have a lot about the Byrnes, and I'll have to search a bit to retrieve what I've got.
Michael Trait, his second wife Margaret Lalor, their baby son Michael, and his two daughters from his first marriage, Catherine and Bridget, left in December 1851, and arrived at Port Henry, now called Geelong, on 31 March 1852 on the ‘Cambodia’. On the passenger list, they were listed as ‘Treat’. It was an extremely slow voyage of 112 days.
When they arrived in Geelong, the Traits went to Anaki Hills, where Michael was indentured as a farm labourer to Fred Griffin, a very wealthy landowner. His daughters lost no time and both married within months of arriving. Catherine married her fiancé from home, Ned Byrne, who was also a passenger on the Cambodia, although the real purpose of granting assisted passage to unmarried girls was to provide wives for men already settled here. They had 12 children.
Bridget married Martin Maloney, and nine children were born to them. He died in 1868 and Bridget remarried, to John Robinson.
Regards, Ken
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Hi Kenneth,
How do you know that Edmund/Ned Byrne was Catherine Trait's fiance before their voyage? That's interesting.
My older relative is the grand daughter of Richard Byrne, I think the youngest of the 12 children born to Catherine & Ned. I am trying to find out what happened to his siblings. It appears a LOT of them died very young. My older relative is anxious to meet any Byrne relatives still alive.
Thanks.
Jane
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Edmund Byrne married Catherine Trait on 1 July 1852. Their children were:
Mary 1853-1900, Patrick 1855, Thomas 1856-59, John 1857, Michael 58, Thomas b/d 60, Thomas 61-65, Martin 1861-1929, Catherine 63, James 65-76, Bridget b/d 67, Laurence b/d 68, Johanna 69-76.
Then I have "?Richard " so I assume I found him mentioned as one of the family but I can't recall finding his birth details. I'll have to check up on him again.
Mary married Emil Peter Nordström (Swedish) in 1887,
John mar. 1886 Bridget Gittings, daughter of a Eureka Stockade veteran, John Gittings or Gittins.
His brother Patrick was killed at Eureka, John lost an ear, and always wore his hair long.
Their eldest son, Edmund moved to New Zealand, followed by his fiancée. They married in NZ and had 14 children. The eldest one became a nun.
Martin mar. 1900 Ellen Slattery, daughter Kitty.
Catherine mar. John Butler
I have had contact with the NZ Byrnes and I have a photo of one of the Vic ladies.
I'll check up on Richard again. Do you know when he was born ?
Edmund was also a passenger on the Cambodia, and some of the Traits have said that they were engaged. It will be difficult to prove though.
Regards,
Ken
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I found the birth of a Richard Byrne in 1871 n Warr. His parents are listed as Edmond Byrne and Catherine Tracey. I am just wondering if they spelt the mother's name wrong? Only way would be to get the birth certificate.
What does everyone else think? I found a few births of Catherine Tracey but only one marriage and that was in 1887 ..long after supposed birth of Richard.
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The only burial in Ballarat of a Richard Byrne was on 31.5.1948 at the new cemetery, in the RSL section (returned soldiers). He was 79, so born in 1869. If he is ours, then he would have to be Johanna's twin. I vaguely recall a pair of twins, but I can't be certain.
Where did you find the birth in 1871 ? Perhaps they delayed registering it, but it's more likely that the age from the cemetery record is wrong. Catherine would have been 42 in 1871, so it's still possible. I'll have to check up further.
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I found the birth record on my Vic BDM CD in the Pioneer Index.
As I said, the only way to know would be to order the certificate. My relative had Richard's death recorded in 1948 as does the probate & wills online at PROV.
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The Pioneer and other BDM records are based on records at the registry office, so I would expect them to be the same as on the certificate you order, and today they are not cheap.
Sounds like they got the mother's surname wrong. I'll search through my notes and try to find the reference to 'Richard 1873'.
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Thanks...that would be wonderful. I have to order the probate record as it is not digitised yet. I will ask my relative if she has her grandfather's birth ceritifcate or death certificate. That may speed things along! Thanks again for your prompt reply to to my query. It is very much appreciated.
Jane
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I have now found the source of my note on the Byrne pedigree- "?Richard"
The reference to Richard comes from two letters from a relative Nellie Lyons, who was related to many of the Kilkenny families at Navigators, Ballarat.
In one letter Aug. 2000, "Spoke to Mick Butler recently and when I mentioned Joe, and we couldn't find a Richard Byrne, he's not so sure that it was Richard but thinks he read that in the death notice" Just as I found the death notice of Richard, but not his birth.
From another letter July 2000 "Spoke to my Dad's 2nd cousin- he'd heard of Byrnes from his Dad. Joe Byrne's real name was Richard- nicknamed Joe or Joey after the Joe Byrne mixed up with the Kelly gang. He was a wild fellow and the story goes he always carried a revolver."
There may be something in it as we have not found any Joseph.
And his brother Martin was known as 'Skiddy' called after a well known brewer and philanthropist from the 16th century in Cork.
I had thought that Joe might have been John b.1857 (John is sometimes shortened to 'Jo') but it seems that he is a different person. I have known cases where a child is not registered (my grandfather) and the baptism record is not available.
So, we know that your friend's grandfather was Richard but so far we have no proof of his parents' names. Perhaps we should look for the birth or baptism of a Joseph Byrne.
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i had a quick look on the Pioneer Index for a Joe/Joseph Byrne with appropriately named paremts ..but came up empty.
I also found a WW1 service record for a Richard Byrne whose age would fit with the one I found with the wrong mother's name. looks like I may have to get those certificates to clear things up!
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Yes, maybe he was christened Richard, and Joe was his nickname.
Traits have been called Treat, Treight, Tratt, Trott etc. so Tracey is not that dissimilar.
If you are not paying attention, you hear the 'tray' but not the ending.
It's quite within the bounds of possibility that the clerk heard 'Tracey'.
Good luck anyway.
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You said you would like to contact other Byrne descendants. I have found a letter from 2000,
sent by one of the NZ relatives. Most of the details from Victoria, I already knew, but nothing about the NZ branch.
One thing I didn't know was about the death of Edmund/Ned Byrne.
"On 26 July 1872 Edmund fell into a water hole and drowned. He was 52. The death cert. records that he is buried in Ballarat cemetery, and Thomas Trait, Catherine's brother witnessed the burial."
I will send you, via the Personal Message system, the contact details for the NZ relative. Rootschat will advise you by email when the message goes through.
Regards,
Ken
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Jane,
I seem to have got my own message back again. Did you see it ?
I sent the contact details for the NZ Byrne descendant. I see now it was Angela, not her husband.
Could you confirm on this page that you got it.
Regards, Ken
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Hi Ken,
My g g grandfather was James Lyons from Kilkenny. His parents were Daniel Lyons and Mary Magree. James and his sister Ann came to Navigators Ballarat and Ann married John Gittings. James married Bridget Healy. Would love to share information. Mim
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Hello Ken Cooke,
I'm looking for more information about Julia Trait, brother of Kyran Trait, who migrated to Australia & married Mary Nowlan.
Julia married Michael Tyrrell at Muckalee in 1852, then migrated to Victoria, being deceased in Mia Mia in 1906.
Kyran Trait marriage cert lists his mother as Mary Healy, but his death registration and Julia's seem to list their mother as Mary Reaney, or Mary Heaney.
Also, do you please know the names of the ships/dates, on which Kyran Trait & Julia Tyrrell nee Trait,
arrived on in Australia.
Many thanks for your help,
Regards,
John
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Hi,
Ossory Muckalee Marriage Register dated 22 Jun 1852, records that Judy Treat married Michael Tyrrell and witnesses are Michael & Peggy Dowling. Parents are not listed for bride or groom.
The different spellings for Trait/Treat/Trate don't make it easy to locate info. Were Kyran jr and Julia/Judy living with their mother after their father Kyran died?
Thanks,
John
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Hi Ken,
I have the following for the ships on which Julia Trait & her brother Kyran Trait arrived in Australia, but do not know how accurate the ship names & dates are:-
Julia Trait married Michael Tyrrell and the ship British Queen, which arrived in Melbourne on 3 May 1853, has Judy Tyrrell & Michael Tyrrell travelling together as passengers.
Kyran Trait seems to have arrived in New South Wales on the ship Wacusta, 2 Jan 1853.
It is certainly interesting looking at the Trait, Byrne, Butler & other families who settled in Victoria in the 1800's,
Regards,
John
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Hi Ken,
James Trait b.1830, age 77, was buried in Amherst Cemetery, Victoria, Australia, on 5 March 1907.
The receipt for his burial shows it was paid for by Thomas Tyrrell, the son of Julia Tyrrell nee Trait, the daughter Kyran & Mary Trait. Julia died in 1906.
Is there any information you have in your records for James Trait. He is the only occupant of the grave at Amherst.
I have the Death Certificates for Kyran Trait deceased Geelong, Julia Tyrrell nee Trait deceased Mia Mia and James Trait buried at Amherst, plus his burial receipt, if you would like copies.
Regards,
John
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Hello,
My name is Paul Byrne-Moroney. I am the great grandson of Richard Byrne and son of the person Jane has referred to in her comments as ‘the older relative wanting information, and, if at all possible, though unlikely, a photograph of Richard.
I'm very grateful that Jane Cleary shared this page with me and that so many of us are searching for information pertaining to our families, including my great-grandfather, Richard Byrne from Buninyong - Born Warracknabeal or Yankee Flat, Warranheip, Victoria 12 Feb 1871 - Died 29 May 1948, aged 79.
Richard and Catherine had one child, my grandfather, Edmund Aloysius Byrne b. 28 Dec 1900. Richard and Catherine separated in 1901 and Edmund was raised by Catherine’s parents, in Ouyen, Victoria. My mother has a photo of the toddler in the arms of his grandmother. Until recently, my family thought that my great grandfather had died long before my mother was born – because that’s what the family had been told by Richard’s estranged wife, Mary Catherine Murnane, who left him with a one year old toddler (my mother’s father, Edmund) around 1901. Mary Catherine Murnane told the world that her former husband Richard Byrne had died – we think because she left him with her son, which would have been socially frowned upon.
At our state public records office I found Supreme Court litigation papers between Plaintiffs – Fred P Stevens & Co versus Defendant – Richard Byrne, dated 1897 No.115 – judgement for the plaintiffs. Not sure of course if these are for the same Richard Byrne. I also newspaper records from Saturday 16 Feb of a Richard Byrne selling land at a public auction because he was ‘leaving the district’. The properties, allotments Z2, Z3 & 3C and totalling 103 acres, were located in Sections 19 (1) & 21 (2) in the Parish of Warrenheip. The lots included secure fencing and residential dwellings.
Richard enlisted in WW1 on 1 / 12 / 1915 at the age of 44 in Galong NSW. According to Richard’s war record he received the standard three service medals.
It is probable that Richard acquired 279 acres as a residential lease near Jan Juc following the first world war because the signature on the property acquisition documents, from 1919, match the signature Richard used when he enlisted in the WW1 in 1915. He also stated his occupation as labourer/carpenter. Richard acquired Allotment 52, Parish of Paraparrp. and on the property transaction papers, Richard gives his postal address as a company in Ryrie St Geelong – I can’t decipher the old script with the company name but I will research that in Geelong. He gives his age as 48, states he is a widower, that he has one 18 year old son and that he has no-one depending on him. Using the property maps on the papers and cross referencing with roads and waterways on Google maps, I have been able to figure out the boundaries of the property. Also at PROV I found a 1922 electoral role record for a Richard Byrne in the district of Corio / Sub-district of Geelong. His occupation was ‘labourer’. There are also records of a Richard Byrne being involved in litigation in Geelong over the years following the war due to debts that this particular Richard Byrne, had.
Interestingly, I also located a newspaper submission of a lease of 562 acres in Romsey (a property known as Farm Hill) by Messrs Pearson, Rowe, Smith & Co to a Richard Byrne ‘of Warracknabeal’ for a period five years, three months. Unfortunately, I don’t have date so I will need to track that down again. If he was born in Warracknabeal, did he return there at some point? Perhaps to be nearer to his son who was raised in Ouyen? These sites I found through google.uk are also informative.
http://www.swvic.org/digby/family/mcevoy.htm http://www.swvic.org/digby/family/hawkins.htm
Of additional interest, I had my, my mums and before he passed away, my father’s DNA tested (which also interestingly confirms our French/German ancestry) and that mum and dad share a 5th or 6th grandparent – so, on the 23&me website, I have DNA relations related to mum, to dad, and about 30 to both my parents. Clearly, I need to tap into 'the both' community in search of the link. I have also been contacted by French people wanting to explore how we are related by DNA. A possible link is that the first wife of Thomas McEvoy, Charlotte Ennis, who came from Antrim, as did my father’s great, great grandmother, Isabella Gamble who married Martin Moroney. Or perhaps the Gambles are connected to the Hawkins. The thing about the DNA site though, is very few people with our various known family names, have been tested and very few also, knowingly at least, have our names list as in their ancestry - so it is mainly broad rather than closer linear family that are coming up as being related and the maximum % relationship is .3% or 3rd to distant cousins. To know more, more of us would need to throw caution to the wind and spit in a tube. Having said that, I wish I'd used Ancestry.com now because it is more widely used and, obviously, I can't submit dad's DNA again. They have said no in the past but I hope one day Ancestry will accept Dad’s 23&Me data (happy to pay the fee) so I can extend our reach.
Paul Byrne-Moroney