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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => West Lothian (Linlithgowshire) => Topic started by: Seoras on Monday 10 October 11 23:43 BST (UK)
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I can find no trace of a death for my 4xG grandfather Daniel Clifford.He was married to Mary McLean,her parents were Donald McLean and Catherine McInnes.He was born in Ireland about 1806 and the family were Roman Catholic.I have him in 1841 in Kirkintilloch.He must have been in Scotland for some time as his son my 3xG grandfather and also Daniel was born Scotland about 1830.1861 I have him in Bathgate and still there in 1881 aged 75 lodging at 12 Great Russell St.Then he just disappears.There is a death for Daniel Clifford,Edinburgh 1863 but that is his son.Any ideas anyone ???
This is one of my brickwalls.
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Have worked out that the family he was living with were his daughter Mary's.
John McAllister 42
Mary McAllister 43
John McAllister 19
Daniel McAllister 17
Mary Jane McAllister 13
Alexander McAllister 11
Catherine McAllister 7
Margaret McAllister 5
Daniel McAllister 75
He is no longer with them by 1891 so must have died between 1881 and then.
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Like you George, really struggling to see his death entry on SP :-\
Monica
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Hi Monica,there is a public tree that states he died in Scotland 1891 but no information to back this up.I am beginning to get deja vu as with much of my Irish ancestry in that his parents or where he came from will remain a mystery ???
His son Daniel's widow Bridget Clifford (maiden name Lee) appears to have a son George in 1868 in St. Cuthberts Edinburgh who goes by the name George Clifford.He plainly can't be Daniels however as he died in 1863.I will have to check that one out.
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George, I think the a/try tree which shows Daniel has having died in 1891 (if I am looking at the same one as you) also shows this date as BEF (before) 1891. I think they have just make assumptions that he had died by the time of the 1891 census.
As for Geoge, son of Daniel Jnr., stuck on that too :-\
Monica
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Me too,I wonder if someone on that tree has mixed up somewhere,it's the first time I have heard of him.Below is them in 1861.Looks like David and he has been transcribed on a site that isn't as good as SP as such ;D.But it is them.Daniel born Lanarkshire,Bridget born Ireland and daughter Mary Anne (my GG grandmother) born Edinburgh.There is another daughter,Margaret,to come in 1862 but the next year Daniel died of peritonitus in Edinburgh aged 34. ??? ??? ???
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Daniel is one of those names ::) I have seen it as a variant with David in some cases or Donald. Did try searching for his death as David and Donald in West Lothian post 1881, but no joy unfortunately.
Regarding young George, tried searching IGI for a George, no surname and mother Bridget Lee/s and nothing shows also....
Monica
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Young George is sticking to his father being Daniel I think! From 1891:
George Clifford 24 printer
Janet McK Clifford 21
Daniel Clifford 1
Address: 3 Prospect St, Edinburgh
Likely his marriage entry may have showed Daniel as his spiritual father?!
Monica
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Only birth of the right age
1866 CLIFFORD GEORGE Male born at ABBEY BURGH /RENFREW
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Hi Sancti
Parents for that George show on IGI as George CLIFFORD and Mary Ann MUTRIE.
Monica
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I was wondering if Daniel senior had gone back to Ireland but it would be unlikely.His daughter Mary is still at Great Russell St in 1901,though she had at various times lived in three different houses on the same street.Also by 1881,the last time I can find him he has been in Scotland 50 years.Even if he died in a poorhouse (another thought) it would have been recorded surely.
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Hi Monica and Sancti I have located George's marriage to Janet McKinnon Robertson in 1890.Both parents deceased,this I know as I have both DC's.Daniel died in Edinburgh 1863 and Bridget in Edinburgh in 1886.Now given that George is 22 on his wedding day how on earth can Daniel be his father when he died 27 years previously ???
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Well racked my brains on this one and can only come up with two possibilities.
1.Bridget was still a young woman when her husband died so could have had an illigitimate child.How she could get away with passing it off as her dead husbands though is beyond me,5 years is a long pregnancy.
2. He is in fact the illigitimate child of her eldest daughter Mary Anne.She would have been 16/17 at George's birth depending on the year and I've seen one census says 1866 in which case 15.I tend to go for 1868.She is hustled off to the alter in Bathgate 1869 aged 17.It says 16 on the marriage certificate but I know it's 17 as I have her birth registered in St.Mary's Cathedral,Edinburgh.
And I'm still missing one Daniel ???
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Bridget may have told George his 'dad' Daniel died when he was young or just before he was born so George would have thought Daniel was his father. His birth certificate is not registered as George Clifford
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Hi Sancti,it's not impossible as you say that he had grown up thinking his father was Daniel,lucky for his mother they didn't have computers and SP.
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I tried looking for his birth as George with middle name Clifford but no luck
Have you looked under his mother's maiden name?
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I tried it under Lee,Bridget's maiden name Sancti.None I could see immediately.
Shows 5 George Lees born between 1865 and 1870 but none where I would expect them to be.
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Hello,
Seoras, I have already emailed you with an attachment of the cert.
I know it is some time since this message was posted, however I thought users might like to see my findings and get your views. Good to get through the brick wall (hopefully folks will agree with me - let me know your thoughts)
I looked up Daniel Clifford in the burial discs for West Lothian.
Dan Clifford, died 18/03/1890 aged 80 years, interred 20/03/1890.
He is buried in common ground. Glasgow Road Paulville Section N Lair 212
Then I looked at SP. As many of you know, no Daniel Clifford. However, I searched using information from the burial: death year, age, birth year, and first name. Didn't use surname. Of the list that came up, there was Daniel McLaughlin. This Daniel McLaughlin died in Linlithgow Poorhouse. Date of death is the same and so is the spouse. Daniel's mother's maiden name is given as Clifford so Daniel may have been illegitimate or did something happen to make him take his mother's maiden name?
The informant was a grandson in law, James McBride. James McBride married Mary Ann Clifford in 1869. Mary Ann was the daughter of Daniel's son Daniel and Bridget.
Mags
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Mags, absolutely superb sleuthing, this has been a brickwall for ages. Thank you very much. I see it has his mother Helen Clifford down as McClaughlan and yet I have Daniel down on every census as Clifford. This is definately him though. Wife was Mary McLean (she's another problem) and the grandson-in-law James McBride mentioned is my GG grandfather, married as you say to Daniel's grandaughter Mary Ann.
Interesting that his father was a soldier as according to his wife's DC so was her father. Now Daniel I know was born in Ireland somewhere so I presume his mother Helen was Irish. Now I have to find out where John McClaughlan came from. Was he Irish too or a British soldier in Ireland.
Also would there be records for the Union Poorhouse and why was he in Linlithgow ?, was that the nearest one to Bathgate. Why was he there full stop, he had plenty of family in Bathgate.
Once again Mags, thank you for tracking this down.
I have removed attachment, as Rootschat policy is only to show a part of the certificates for handwriting and translation purposes only.
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Hello,
Information about Linlithgow is on Peter Higginbotham's site.
www.workhouses.org.uk/Linlithgow/
Scroll down to the bottom of the page and you'll see the local history library has produced a booklet. PM if you want one and I'll get it and post to you.
Mags
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Hi Mags, I had looked at that site as I had several families in Linlithgow. That's three I have so far ending their days in the poorhouse, hard times.
Yes I would like a copy of the booklet but you must let me reimburse you. I'll PM an address.
George.
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The records of the Poor House are not held by West Lothian Council but by Lothian Health Services Archive at Edinburgh University (it had become a hospital and the the records transferred to them). West Lothian Family History Society have been transcribing the registers and the transcriptions should be available to search at Linlithgow and Edinburgh shortly. The register of inmates starts in August 1894.
Eric
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Hi Eric, 4 years too late for Daniel to be in them, I would still like the booklet though Mags.
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Mags, I have been away in Dorset for a week and the booklet had slipped my mind, so it was a lovely surprise to find it amongst the bills and junk mail ;D. Very interesting reading and though it seems to have been one of the better poorhouses, I don't think I would have wanted to end up there. I still don't know why Daniel would have been in there given that he had many family members about but at least when he died there it was under the control of the more enlightened George and Janet Johnstone.
Thank you so much for going to the trouble of obtaining and sending this to me.
George.
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Hello George,
STV showed two good programmes on the workhouse. Don't know if they are still on catch up.
The workhouse was one place a person could go to get free health care so perhaps that is the reason Daniel went there.
Secrets from the Workhouse - Tuesday, June 25 | STV Player
player.stv.tv/programmes/secrets-workhouse/2013-06-25-2100/
Secrets from the Workhouse - Tuesday, July 02 | STV Player
player.stv.tv/programmes/secrets-workhouse/2013-07-02-2100/
Any other names to look up on burial discs?
Mags
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I do have a couple outstanding Mags, I will PM you. :)
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hi there dan clifford died at russells row bathgat on 18 march 1890 and is buried in paulville cem bathgate section n lair 212 i have passed this on to georgeterry and usher
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Well now I'm confused as this cert gives him dying in the Union Poorhouse same date March 18th 1890. This is definately him. Father given as John McLaughlan and Daniel registered as McLaughlan even though on every census he uses his mother's surname, Clifford. widower of Mary McLean, correct. Grandson-in-law James McBride, correct, my great great grandfather, married to Daniel's granddaughter, Mary Ann Clifford. ???
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Hi Seoras,
Could there be a poorhouse in near Russells Row, Bathgate? The registrar may have written Linlithgow instead of Bathgate then. It is unusual though.
Tom
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Hi Tom, Bathgate was one of eight parishes covered by the Linlithgow Poorhouse. I had a chat with Terry (big nanook) and his trusty guidedog Usher via email last night and his thoughts are that though Daniel died in the poorhouse, he was brought home for burial and for that Russell Street Bathgate was given for his address. He had been living there with one of his daughter's. Several other relatives lived on the same street.
My puzzle now is just who was John McLaughlan and why did Daniel use Clifford as a surname his whole life yet someone knew to put McClaughlan on this death cert. Was there even a John McLaughlan or was this name given because of the stigma of the poorhouse.
On his son's (my 3xG grandfather) death cert his father is registered as Clifford and he is Clifford on every census from 1841 to 1881.
I have yet to find a marriage for a John McLaughlan to Helen Clifford but I think it will be in Ireland as that is where Daniel was born according to every census. That could be anytime between 1805 and 1815 according to the various ages given. In 1881 he is 75 and by his death 9 years later had only aged 5 years.