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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Fermanagh => Topic started by: Marcella Paget on Friday 21 October 11 08:03 BST (UK)
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Yes, I do realise how many James Beattys there were in 19th century Co. Fermanagh but refuse to admit defeat! This is everything I know about ours: On the 1873 marriage certificate of his son, (born in Fermanagh abt. 1842 and also named James Beatty) he is described as a "farmer" whereas the father of the bride is described as a "gentleman". From this I deduce that James Beatty senior was probably a tenant farmer, not a landowner, but a reasonably substantial one since his son caught the eye of a "gentlemans" daughter. The son's wedding was in a Presbyterian church in Dublin, so, like all the others, our James Beatty was probably of Scottish origin. I went through the whole of the Griffiths Valuation for Co. Fermanagh, and guessing that you'd need at least 30 acres to be a farmer (please let me know if you have better info. about 19th century Irish farming!) found that only about 7 James Beattys had that much land. 5 of them were within a few miles of Five-Mile-Town, and maybe some of them are the same person.
If I were closer to Ireland I'd be happy to spend a week or two wading through Presbyterian and COI parish and land records in Dublin and Belfast, including the updates to the Griffith Valuation, trying to find out if one of those James Beattys had a son James Beatty in 1842. As I'm on the other side of the world in Australia I'd really appreciate any advice as to how to proceed from here, including any flaws you can spot in my reasoning so far.
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I went through the whole of the Griffiths Valuation for Co. Fermanagh, and guessing that you'd need at least 30 acres to be a farmer (please let me know if you have better info. about 19th century Irish farming!) found that only about 7 James Beattys had that much land. 5 of them were within a few miles of Five-Mile-Town, and maybe some of them are the same person.
Afraid that's incorrect- 10 acres or less was sufficient for farming at that time and quite often those who had a large amount of land actually had poorer land than someone with a smaller farm. Tp judge the quality of the land involved you'd need to look at both the acreage and the valuation.
Have you searched PRONI Will Extracts yet? some of the wording of the actual Wills are also available to view. There are several James Beattie's from Fermanagh listed.
http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx
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Thanks for your quick reply aghadowey, and it's great to get advice from someone with better local information. I guess I'd better trawl over the Griffiths Valuation again, taking relative value into account and with a lower target acreage. Thanks for the PRONI link. I knew of the resource, but hadn't realised it took you to the actual image of the will which is fabulous. I'll explore it further online and wring all the info out of it that I can.
It's probably worth mentioning for anyone else who is interested in this family, that it probably included Archibald as well as James as forenames. Also, according to my grandfather Archibald Beatty, his grandfather (James Beatty senior, the subject of this thread) had been a very strong swimmer and "used to swim across Sligo Bay with Captain [Matthew] Webb". If so, this must have been in the few years after 1873 when our James must have been at least in his 50's. It's on the record that Webb swam across Killala Bay - I don't know about Sligo Bay.
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On the 1873 marriage certificate of his son, (born in Fermanagh abt. 1842 and also named James Beatty) he is described as a "farmer" whereas the father of the bride is described as a "gentleman".
What was his wife's name?
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What was his wife's name?
Irish marriage certificates do not list mothers' names so perhaps Marcella won't know this information.
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What was his wife's name?
Irish marriage certificates do not list mothers' names so perhaps Marcella won't know this information.
I mean the husband and wife, not the mother(fathers wife).
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Hi KDDA,
The son married my alias, Marcella Paget (it's in the small print at the bottom of my messages) Are you also descended from a James Beatty?
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No, not descended but I know several people with a James Beattie in their family tree. These ones are descended from the townlands of Greaghacapple and Folum Little (Dresternian, Clankelly, Co Fermanagh) I don't know if your aware but there are a few different spellings ie Beattie, Beatty, Beattee
Have you any clues as to what townland they come from? I'm in the general area, so give me a shout if you need something checked out. (Ill hopefully get around to it eventually!!)
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Sorry KDDA, I somehow managed to miss your reply so am extremely late responding!
No, we have no idea where in Fermanagh other than clues from the Beattys (of whatever spelling) in Griffiths Valuation. As I said, many seem to have lived around Five Mile Town. Thanks very much for the offer of help, I'll let you know if I can ask anything specific at some stage. We are considering trying DNA testing in case it can narrow down the search.
Cheers
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The son's wedding was in a Presbyterian church in Dublin, so, like all the others, our James Beatty was probably of Scottish origin.
Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church, so if the 1873 marriage was in a Presbyterian church in Dublin that probably tells you more about her denomination than her husband’s. I’d keep an open mind on that issue. He could well be Church of Ireland. (The majority of Beatty/Beattie entries in the 1901 Fermanagh census are Church of Ireland).
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Thanks Elwyn, Every clue can help, but we know much more about her family than his so far, C of I from county Sligo. They raised their children as C of E once they came to Melbourne, except that soon after arriving in 1878 James bought a burial plot in the Presbyterian section of the St. Kilda cemetery.
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Hi Marcella,
I found an Archibald Beatty married to Jane Robinson 25 Jan 1861 at Sallaghy COI, Galloon, Fermanagh, his address is given as Crockerahoas, Galloon, his father James Beatty (Labourer). Jane's address given as Derrycorby, Galloon, father is William Robinson (Farmer). Both ages are shown as "Full". I can find no reference to any children of theirs in the Sallaghy Birth/Baptism register entries.
There are also references to Archy/Archibald Beatty's in the 1830-1844 Galloon parish registers one is married to Letitia Guy the other refers to an Eliza Guy. likely to be the same couple, married 3 Aug 1835 and some children shown. Also 2x mentions of James Beatty marriages one to Margt Armstrong on 28 5 1839, the other to Ellen Levingston on 24 9 1841, no children shown for either couple.
There are also over 50 Beatty names in the Gallooon OPR 1798-1830. Among them a burial for Elizabeth Beatty age 35 of Sligo, Co Sligo.
I know there are Beatty's scattered all over, but you never know if people post what they know, something may well match a small snippet of what you already know.
Good Luck
Rusty
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Thanks Rusty, I'm planning to strain my brain trying to tease out all the Beatty clues on a future visit to archives in Ireland. At the moment I'm busy writing up all I've learned about the Pagets for my website. My grandfather's name, Archibald, is probably one of the best clues we have as it certainly wasn't a Paget name, so I'll certainly follow up your suggestion later on.
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http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=218
http://taggerty.wordpress.com/the-story/chap-7-leaving-carron-vale-1927-28/1927-plus-fours/
http://taggerty.wordpress.com/image-gallery/jas-beatty-documents/ could be yours???
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In order to source this newspaper article, please supply ALL of the information below in an email to localstudies'at'leitrimcoco.ie
Bib #: 52959
LDR: 00000nam 22000255 4500
1000: $a newsNM
900: $a Roscommon and Leitrim Gazette
902: $a 26 October 1833
903: $a Above mentioned Re: marriage to Lord Crofton
904: 0 $a CROFTON LOUISA NEE PAGET DAUGHTER OF MARQUIS OF ANGLESEY
907: $a 3 c4
--------------------------------
Bib #: 204626
LDR: 00000nam 22000255 4500
1000: $a newsNM
900: $a Roscommon & Leitrim Gazette
902: $a 21 September 1833
903: $a Above to Marry Lord Crofton
904: 0 $a PAGET LOUISA LADY G DAUGHTER OF MARQUIS OF ANGLESEY
907: $a 3 c2
----------------------------------------------------
Bib #: 50462
LDR: 00000nam 22000255 4500
1000: $a newsNM
900: $a Roscommon & Lietrim Gazette
902: $a 26 October 1833
903: $a Above named married Lady Paget.
904: 0 $a Crofton Lord
907: $a 3 c4
----------------------------------
They should send up to 6 items for free!
(Spelling and errors included in the above!)
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Thanks Hallmark, Actually yes, that is my website you've linked to above, but you've reminded me that, now that I've written them up I should put the link to it more visibly on the thread under Mayo about the Pagets of Mayo.
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I just left a comment on your amazing website!
The James Beatty I'm looking for was born Circa 1817, died 1888, is buried in Laghy Cemetery, and was apparently "Of Dublin" prior to his death, according to the headstone photo I have.
His father was William Beatty and his sister was Anne Beatty who married Wm. Armstrong in 1847.
You have so much great information, do you think that my James could be the father to your James? Please have a look at my family history blog & let me know if you think there's a connection:
http://beattyarmstrong.blogspot.com/
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Im interested in the comment made about a James Beatty swimming with Capt. Matthew Webb, the famous chap who swam the English Channel. Does anyone have a photo of this James Beatty?If you do please post it.
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After a few years of intermittent sleuthing, I've finally made a breakthrough with my James Beatty, Farmer of Fermanagh. People used to ask "Do you have a townland" and I'd roll my eyes... Well now I actually do!!! He had 30+ acres at Aghavoory, near Fivemiletown from at least 1829 to c1880, and had at least 4 other children besides my gg grandfather James (who married Marcella). My research progress is detailed on my website: https://taggerty.wordpress.com/
I'm hoping for advice from Fermanagh experts now. Firstly, I think this family were members of the congregation of the Presbyterian church at Cavanaleck, but how can I access those parish records without going to Belfast? At PRONI they're MIC 1P/80 and MIC 1P/230/4. As far as I can tell, they can't be borrowed from LDS - anyway they don't seem to be in the LDS catalogue. I emailed PRONI to see how much they'd charge to copy them for me and after a week they still haven't replied :(
Secondly, Aghavoory is on the Colebrook estate of the Brooke family, whose papers are (again) held by PRONI (D3004 and D998). I guess there's no way to browse them long distance (sigh!). I can't be too cross with PRONI, because it's so fantastic that they've copied all the Valuation Revision Books for Northern Ireland so that you can browse them online.
Can anybody help? I'd be grateful for suggestions as to where to go from here. I think I've pretty much exhausted the obvious online sources.
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http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/fermanagh/churches/aghalurcher-coi-bap.htm has for example
Born 30/3/1863 Bap 12/4/1863 Margaret d/o James BEATTY + Sarah Aghavoory
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/fermanagh/church.htm
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Thanks Hallmark, Although this is a puzzling bit of info. This kid is 20 years younger than James' youngest known!
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there are probably more there...
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Hi Marcella,
Just Posted to IGP in the past couple of Days: http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/fermanagh/churches/aghavea-coi-bap.htm
See various spellings also. Aghavea is not a million miles from the Colebrooke Estate or Fivemiletown.
Look at a Townland map of the area and plot all the Beatty names, they are probably related. Look for the earliest and try to place them in family groups if you have not done that yet. Then check the PRONI wills again.
I have found this method often brings rewards.
Also check any other BMD transcriptions on IGP for all references to the Beatty name and plot these also, taking into account that the marriage was traditionaly at the Bride's church. And then the couple may well have settled in the same area as the Brides family.
I'm guessing you already have tried all the above, but if not may be worth spending time plotting all you have onto a spreadsheet, even if at this time you are unable to link them.
Rusty
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Marriage in Brookeborough Methodist Church 1886 for a William Murray and Maggie Beatty (Aghavoory, daughter of James, farmer, witness: Eliza Anne Beatty)- this may be the Margaret Beattie baptised 1863 in Aghalurcher COI (posted above). Other Beattie marriages there may be of interest-
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/fermanagh/churches/brookeborough-meth-mar.htm
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Coolnamarrow/Killylackey/1361832
1911 gives her name as Margaret Maria-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Fermanagh/Coolnamarrow/Killylacky/513610
Possible contact? http://www.killyfole.eu/extras/content/content.php?author.4
Added-
Murray Lily of Killylackey Corranny P.O. Newtownbutler county Fermanagh spinster died 13 March 1954 Administration Londonderry 19 August to John Murray farmer. Effects £203 11s. 4d.
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Thanks Rusty and Aghadowy for replies - I'll follow up those extra sources and add some more to my already huge James Beatty spreadsheet :) I can't tell whether the Cavanaleck parish register is included in those Fermanagh records you sent me links to, but can see there's a contact so might ask. In any case though, I really like to see the actual records. As you know, there's a lot you can deduce from the order of entries in the register and your knowledge of the family can help you interpret entries that are otherwise illegible, etc. Also they include a list of communicants for 1862 which I really want to read. I assume none of you know how to see the Cavanaleck Parish register without going to PRONI, and the same for the Colebrook estate papers? As you can tell, I've done a great deal of work on this family already, and in consulting you Fermanagh experts I'm really just making sure that there's no cheap and easy alternative to going to Ireland again. I certainly had fun there with the Paget branch of my family a couple of years ago, and made massive strides, especially with a few days at the Registry of Deeds in Dublin (fabulously Dickensian place!). I can see that my Beattys were tenant farmers, not landowners and it seems, not that into Deeds, so more time in Belfast than Dublin this time I think. Any further advice, even confirming this theory is very welcome, and all of your suggestions much appreciated.
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Hey Hallmark and others,
I love you! This is fabulous! That daughter you unearthed who was 20 years younger than any other of James Beatty of Aghavoory's children (it hadn't occurred to me to look in C of I records for Presbyterian children!) - was SO much younger than any siblings known that I wondered if James had remarried. YES! he did! RootsIreland has the record of his remarriage in 1859. James Beattie, Farmer, of Aghavoory, WIDOWER, married Sarah Cooke of Aghavoory at Cavanaleck meeting house. AND, (you know what I'm going to say don't you :) The marriage being in the civil registration period, gives the name of HIS father - Archibald Beatty, Farmer and takes my Beatty ancestors back a whole generation! Am a happy customer! Though I still might go to Ireland... Except I know now that the list of communicants at Cavanaleck won't give the name of my ggg grandmother which I'd been hoping. Oh well... THANKS! Off to write this all up on my blog now :) :)
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G'day all. Found this when I was researching a James Beatty son of James Beatty (formerly of Fermanagh) who married Margaretta Glenn in Sydney in 1863, then seems at least one of the Aussie Beatty boys from that moment on has Glenn as a middle name. Not sure if I connect to them, but the DNA research is leaning towards it. Though haven't had anyone compare my Y chromosone markers to see if there's a connection along that line. Yes, I'm snooping around from the wrong side of the sheets. Just call me Jon Snow lol.
Regards, Paul.
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The 1821 census survives for Aghalurcher parish
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nirfer/aghalurcher_cen_1.htm
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Hey Hallmark and others,
I love you! This is fabulous! That daughter you unearthed who was 20 years younger than any other of James Beatty of Aghavoory's children (it hadn't occurred to me to look in C of I records for Presbyterian children!) - was SO much younger than any siblings known that I wondered if James had remarried. YES! he did! RootsIreland has the record of his remarriage in 1859. James Beattie, Farmer, of Aghavoory, WIDOWER, married Sarah Cooke of Aghavoory at Cavanaleck meeting house. AND, (you know what I'm going to say don't you :) The marriage being in the civil registration period, gives the name of HIS father - Archibald Beatty, Farmer and takes my Beatty ancestors back a whole generation! Am a happy customer! Though I still might go to Ireland... Except I know now that the list of communicants at Cavanaleck won't give the name of my ggg grandmother which I'd been hoping. Oh well... THANKS! Off to write this all up on my blog now :) :)
You are welcome!
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The will of an Archibald Beatty of Farnamullen was probated 1839 in Clogher Diocese - there is (at least a partial) transcript of this will in the National Archives in Dublin
Archibald
Last name Beatty
Year 1839
Address Farnamullen
County Fermanagh
Where grant proved Clogher Diocese
Document type Will
Document status Abstract
Ref.no. Crossle/Beatty/1/27
Record set Index Of Irish Wills 1484-1858
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Registered deed that ties the Beattys of Farnamullan to Aghavoory through the marriage to Moore.
To the Reg'r app'd by Act of Parliament for Reg'g Deeds &c
A memorial of Articles of Marriage Settlement dated the twenty eight day of
July One thousand Seven hundred and ninety two made between Charles Beatty
and Archibald Beatty his son both of Farnamullen and Martha Moore the elder
of Aughasoorey in said County on the Intermarriage of the said Archibald
Beaty (sic) with Martha Moore daughter to the aforesaid Martha Moore in
consideration of fifty pounds as a marriage portion paid by the said Martha
Moore the elder the said Charles and Archibald Betty (sic) did grant bargain
sell assign and make over unto the said Martha Moore the younger and the
children of such marriage fifteen acres of the said Lands of Farnamullen
together with a proportional part of the turf bog ?? free and all rights of
renewal and also one house & tenement in the town of Lisbelaw in the County
of Fermanagh during the continuance of the Grand Leases thereof which Deed
is witnessed by James Moore of Aghavoory in the County of Fermanagh and this
memorial is witnessed by the said James Moore and John Martin of Augher in
the County of Tyrone Atty at Law. Archibald Beaty (Seal) Signed sealed and
executed in presence of James Moore, John Martin. The above named James
Moore maketh that he is a subs'g witness to the Deed whereof the above is a
memorial and that he saw the said Deed and this Mem'l duly executed by the
parties thereto and that the name James Moore sub'd as a witness to the said
Deed and this Memorial is said Deponents proper name and handwriting, Ja's
Moore. Sworn before me at Augher in the County of Tyrone this 31st day of
Dec'r 1793 a Com'r of the Exchequer for taking affed'ts in said Co'y & I
know the Deponents.
John Martin [Deed registered Feb. 7 1794]
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Will of Archibald Beatty of Farnamullen, written 15 March 1869.
The will was proved May 2, 1870. He mentions wife, Mary Beatty. Brother John Beatty received his farm in Farnamullen. Five children of John Beatty are mentioned as is a niece, Elizabeth Campbell. A
sister Martha Beatty and brother James Beatty are also mentioned. Nephew Thomas Graham, son of Charlotte Graham is a legatee. Henry Betty is a witness to the will and Samuel McCreery of Farnamullen is also mentioned in the will (he holds 6 pounds of Archibald Beatty's money).
http://apps.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar_IE/WillsSearchImage.aspx?id=162906
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Just discovered this wonderful website for the surname Beatty.
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bp2000/main.htm
http://www.natural-software.com/bp2000/crossle/crossleindex.php
Clogher Admon bond:
(142) Charlotte Beatty alias Scott, and James Scott, both of Fernamullan, psh of Cleenish, co. Fermanagh, and John Morrison of Aughadrumakan, psh of Aghalog, co. Monaghan, all in dio. Clogher, bound to John Bp of Clogher in £30, on 22 Sept 1817. Condition of bond that sd Charlotte Beatty, alias Scott the daughter and legatee named in the will of Charles Beatty, decd, will faithfully admor.
Witness: James Mitchell [signed] Charlotte Beatty
James Scott
[Indorsed] Charles Beatty, Ternamilleen, Cleenish John Morrison
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Hi Gortinanima,
It's very kind of you to do this research on our family and much appreciated. We're aware of the tantalising connection between the Beattys of Farnamullan and Aghavoory, but even after wading through the Colebrooke Estate records at PRONI I have been unable to prove that the farmer Archibald Beatty who was the father of James Beatty of Aghavoory was the same person as the Archibald Beatty of Farnamullan who married Martha Moore of Aghavoory. It's maddening, as genetic testing indicates such a close relationship! I've given up in frustration for the time being - the latest is on my family history blog:
https://taggerty.wordpress.com/
My family is L-560 in the Beatty project you gave the link to. I should update our tree there as I put it up before I'd discovered James of Aghavoory.
Cheers.
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Hi Gortinanima,
It's very kind of you to do this research on our family and much appreciated. We're aware of the tantalising connection between the Beattys of Farnamullan and Aghavoory, but even after wading through the Colebrooke Estate records at PRONI I have been unable to prove that the farmer Archibald Beatty who was the father of James Beatty of Aghavoory was the same person as the Archibald Beatty of Farnamullan who married Martha Moore of Aghavoory. It's maddening, as genetic testing indicates such a close relationship! I've given up in frustration for the time being - the latest is on my family history blog:
https://taggerty.wordpress.com/
My family is L-560 in the Beatty project you gave the link to. I should update our tree there as I put it up before I'd discovered James of Aghavoory.
Cheers.
If you look at the will of Archibald Beatty of Farnamullan 1869 he had a brother named James Beatty.
I think that it is likely that this is your James Beatty (1805-1880). His daughter Matilda Beatty married William Robinson.
Matilda Robinson was witness to the death of her father James Beatty in 1880.
William Robinson was a witness to the marriage of Martha Beatty of Farnamullan (dau of John Beatty, farmer) to Alexander Corrothers in Enniskillen Methodist in 1871.
Seems likely to me that he was a witness to the marriage of his wife's cousin.
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OK Gortinanima,
I'm trying not to get too excited as I really want to believe what you're saying. Yes, I know that Matilda, the daughter of James Beatty of Aghavoory married William Robinson. Yes, she was witness to her father's death, but (presumably according to the information Matilda Robinson provided) he died in 1873, aged 76, so would have been born in 1797. His death cert is on my blog (link below). Where did you get 1880 as his death? DOB 1797 doesn't quite fit with other sources known to descendants of the Farnamullan Beattys, who have James Beatty, their second son according to the order of Archibald's children, born c1807, despite his parents having married in 1792. Wouldn't you think that 1797 was the perfect date for the birth of a second son born to them?? Anyway, he was obviously still alive when his brother Archibald died in 1869, and only got a token amount in his younger brother's will. I'd like to think that's because James, the eldest surviving son was very well set up - at Aghavoory!
Please keep thinking! This could link two lineages in the Beatty project!
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Haha! I just realised I need to update James's info in my own bottom of post info. I guess that's where you got the date! Sorry.
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Hi Gortinanima or whichever wonderful Fermanagh expert is reading,
I need help, and I hope you'll bear with me while I explain. The main impediment to accepting my James Beatty of Aghavoory (1797-1872) as the son of Archibald Beatty of Farnamullan (1758-1831) is the transcription of a tombstone which has apparently gone missing. We know from Crossle/Beatty/1/283 Clogher Will Books that James was Archibald's second son. His first son was Charles who died young. Here's what I've been told about his tombstone:
This "data provides the basis for the for beginning the birth estimates, since Charles is listed as the first born in the will. Note: this tombstone no longer exists. The church in Lisbellaw is removing all old markers and reusing the grave sites. I have not been able to get any information on what process they are using and suspect that the old grave site information will be lost.
Church of Ireland Cemetery, Lisbellaw, Femanagh, Northern Ireland
This stone was erected by John Betty, in memory of his Father Archibald Betty who dept, this life Decbr. 3rd 1831, aged 73 years). Also Martha, wife of the said Archibald Betty, who depd. this life Nov. 23rd 1850 [?], aged 86 years. Also their son Charles Betty who depd. this life March 27th 1818, aged 13 [?] years."[/b]
There was a note attached to this transcription querying whether Charles' death was at age 13 or 18 as the writing was very faint. All I'd need would be for him to have died in 1813 aged 18 and my James would be the perfect age to be his younger brother.
The question is, how can I find the tombstone and get someone to have a look at it? Surely the Church in Lisbellaw wouldn't actually destroy old tombstones. Can somebody help me to resolve this?
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I'm 3/4 Fermanagh and Tyrone but it is my sister who does our NI research. So to use the Irish term for one who is watching with interest from the sidelines - lurcher - I thought I might do more than lurch, haha, and ask if you participate on the Fermanagh gold forum?
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/search?aop&body=James+Beattie&path=fermanagh%2Dgold&start=26
Salute,
Janelle
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Hi Gortinanima or whichever wonderful Fermanagh expert is reading,
I need help, and I hope you'll bear with me while I explain. The main impediment to accepting my James Beatty of Aghavoory (1797-1872) as the son of Archibald Beatty of Farnamullan (1758-1831) is the transcription of a tombstone which has apparently gone missing. We know from Crossle/Beatty/1/283 Clogher Will Books that James was Archibald's second son. His first son was Charles who died young. Here's what I've been told about his tombstone:
This "data provides the basis for the for beginning the birth estimates, since Charles is listed as the first born in the will. Note: this tombstone no longer exists. The church in Lisbellaw is removing all old markers and reusing the grave sites. I have not been able to get any information on what process they are using and suspect that the old grave site information will be lost.
Church of Ireland Cemetery, Lisbellaw, Femanagh, Northern Ireland
This stone was erected by John Betty, in memory of his Father Archibald Betty who dept, this life Decbr. 3rd 1831, aged 73 years). Also Martha, wife of the said Archibald Betty, who depd. this life Nov. 23rd 1850 [?], aged 86 years. Also their son Charles Betty who depd. this life March 27th 1818, aged 13 [?] years."[/b]
There was a note attached to this transcription querying whether Charles' death was at age 13 or 18 as the writing was very faint. All I'd need would be for him to have died in 1813 aged 18 and my James would be the perfect age to be his younger brother.
The question is, how can I find the tombstone and get someone to have a look at it? Surely the Church in Lisbellaw wouldn't actually destroy old tombstones. Can somebody help me to resolve this?
The church in Lisbellaw is removing all old markers and reusing the grave sites.
PURE RUBBISH!!
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This "data provides the basis for the for beginning the birth estimates, since Charles is listed as the first born in the will.
Note: this tombstone STILL exists.
The church in Lisbellaw is NOT removing all old markers and reusing the grave sites.
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Wow! Thanks Hallmark! We must have been misinformed! It did sound hard to believe. Many apologies to the Church at Lisbellaw! Does anybody here live near Lisbellaw who's good at deciphering old grave stones who could carefully read the gravestone in question for me? I'll pay! In particular, I need to know the age and death date for Charles Beatty, as a lot hangs on his dob. The transcription we have says "...Also their son Charles Betty who depd. this life March 27th 1818 aged 13 [?] years" if so, he was born 1804-5, and all of his siblings after that date. On the other hand if he died in 1813 aged 18 he was born 1794-5 which makes much more sense for an eldest child whose parents married in 1792-4. I feel like dashing over there to have a look myself. Unfortunately it's a long expensive dash :(
Also apologies that I'm slow to pick up these messages. I should check more often. I think I missed one above too.
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No problem.... if you had posted 2 days earlier I could have checked it while there.
It's my photo but have no problem if you want to post it in restoration section, see if photo can be improved??
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Also apologies that I'm slow to pick up these messages. I should check more often. I think I missed one above too.
Are you not getting email notifications of replys to your posts?
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Hi Sinann, I'm certainly getting email messages about today's replies, which is great, but didn't get emails about Hallmarks posts dated the 18th.
Cheers
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Hi Sinann, I'm certainly getting email messages about today's replies, which is great, but didn't get emails about Hallmarks posts dated the 18th.
Cheers
So you're just ignoring me?? :o ;D
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I'm certainly not ignoring you Hallmark :) and especially not when you mentioned being at Lisbellaw cemetery just a few days ago! Is there any chance that you'll go past there again soon?? Thanks for the photo. It certainly convinces me that the tombstone is still there, but I can't read those last few crucial words. Actually, the transcription I've heard about had a question mark after age 13. Now if it actually reads age 23 instead of 13 that would put Charles's dob back to about 1795 too.
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Won't be that way in foreseeable future.
I don't have proper photo enhancing Program..... can these be improved??
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Posted them here...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=766322.0
...maybe you can keep an eye on it?? Just click on "Notify" to see replies.
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Thanks Hallmark, They certainly respond quickly on that thread too! However, I still need someone to go and read Charles's details very carefully for me. I guess it isn't the done thing on this forum to ask for the name of an experienced researcher in Fermanagh that I could employ to go to Lisbellaw and read it for me? Personal message me perhaps?
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Well it is just this that needs clarity.
I know what it looks like to me but....
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Do you have inscriptions for the Betty headstones there?
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Hi Hallmark and co.
Yes we have the transcription. It's available in the Fermanagh cemetery records at findmypast.com for example. The image there shows a chap armed with water sprayer and scrubbing brush, so I'm sure he made a good job of the transcription given that it's so faint. I've now obtained the death record for Charles's younger brother Archibald Beatty of Farnamullan who died in 1869 aged 72, so would have been born about 1797! This strengthens my theory that Charles had to have been born mid 1790s. If anybody gets a chance to examine the dates on that tombstone to see if they could be interpreted to support this, I'd be very grateful.
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So what do they give for William's g/stone?
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Hi, sorry to jump in on this, only just became a member of here and not sure how to use it properly, I have a Mary Ann Beatty in my family tree, she is listed in the 1911 census in Liverpool, her birthplace is enniskillen, she married John Cross in 1865 in Isle of Man , would this be any relation to the James Beatty in this post. Thanks, Karen
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Apologies for advancing/diverting the timeline...Does anyone know of James MALONE of Bellanaleck House (not far up the road from Enniskillen)? He was known to my tailor grandfather in Glengormley in the 1930s - possibly a friend, possibly a tailoring client - and I would like to clarify the link. The House lies amid the Moore Betty (Beatty etc.) properties but was there a 1930s sale/lease/rental? There is a candidate James Henry Malone (son of William and Elizabeth) in the area, born 1888, unmarried age 23 in the 1911 census.
best wishes
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The House lies amid the Moore Betty (Beatty etc.) properties but was there a 1930s sale/lease/rental?
Is that not Betty Moore?
http://www.montyhistnotes.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I90&tree=MontyHistNotes_II
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Good day
First name Moore (perhaps taken from earlier Moore surname), surname Betty; married Angelina Montgomery; son Moore Montgomery Betty M.D. who died 1926 and married Gertrude Lemon (who is age 18 when visiting Angelina's household in 1901 census). "Gertrude" duly appears in the later valuation books...I don't know the Betty background but am hoping that James Malone pops up late 1920s or 1930s - he must have been at Bellanaleck House by 1939.
Moore senior's son Thomas Andrew Betty, present at death 1896, had a son Moore Betty in 1900.
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This will have been spotted before, but I see that two of the Robinsons were witnesses for Moore and Angelina's marriage in 1856 - apparently "M" and "William". The surname is pretty clearly BETTY in Moore's signature at that time, though BEATTY will also appear on transcripts. I don't know whether his name MOORE arose from the family of the Marthas Moore. Anyway, I am sorry to divert the thread temporarily away from Betty and towards Malone..but still hoping that Malone turns up.
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Moore Betty M.D. is the Registrar for the death records, where he is named e.g. in 1913 when his mother Angelina dies age 89 - with his Assistant signing the copy. A family affair.
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Moore Betty
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Enniskillen_Urban/Darling_Street/1364395/