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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: Murphyz on Monday 31 October 11 19:55 GMT (UK)
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Hi there,
I have gone to check an entry on the 1851 census for some one and I am not sure of what the census address actually means.
The entry they have is on ancestry is for a Joel Harkin aged 27 in Neilston in 1851 at Neilston Manse. He is a travelling cloth dealer.
I have gone to Barrhead Library and looked through the microfilm of the census; the first section of the census definitely is the Manse with the minister of the parish living there, 6 people at the Manse itself. Then there is clearly a thick line under it and it continues with lots of other entries, which to me mean a new address. But there are no other addresses just pages and pages of names separated by thick black lines. Joel Harkin's entry is quite a bit further down the census from the Manse.
Any help greatly appreciated
Thanks
Murphyz
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Murphyz, checked on FreeCen for 1851 but can't see his entry there. From here http://www.barrhead-scotland.com/Culture/history/1851census.asp where Joel shows, there is no specific address either www.barrhead-scotland.com/resources/admin/server_table_data/GenericView.asp?KEY=3499
Sometimes for these earlier census entries, specific addresses were not given which looks to be the case here.
Monica
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Thanks very much for the help Monica,
Regards
Murphyz
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The inquiry about Neilston Manse from Murphyz was on my behalf. Toll Harken (he was recorded as Joel) was a travelling cloth dealer. What I assume are his brothers, Peter and John are also at the address which I now understand from Monica was not the Manse. This had confused me as he was a Catholic so the explanation makes sense now. I am now following a line that seems to suggest that he may have been a 'Irish traveller' from a family or community of travellers. The family story I have is that he was a 'tinker' or 'pedlar'. Would you know anything about this Monica ? Thanks for your help so far.
Regards
Maz
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Hi Maz
Welcome to RootsChat :)
There is a board here on RC 'Travelling People' www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,387.0.html which you might want to look at and ask for advice on how to proceed with the Harkin brothers.
Monica
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Thanks Monica. I will check out the 'Travelling People' board. Appreciate your help.
Maz
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Hello
sorry I can't help ............. just to say I lived at the Manse about 1969/1970 just before it got pull down .
Jan
P.S would love to see some photos.
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I've occasionally found entries in the census where travellers are entered then deleted as not actually in residence. Also just because it is the manse does not preclude lodgers or even people being offered short term shelter in an outhouse. Some manses were not occupied by the minister if he had other means or habitation. In such situations they might be leased. This is likely to be the Church of Scotland manse. Neilston had nonconformist churches as well.
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I have been reading these posts with some interest. I have and ancestor who's address in the 1851 census was Neilston Manse. Neither he or his wife were Irish they were both born in Neilston. The census shows he and his wife along with one son and one daughter lived at the Manse. I always thought a Manse was where the priest/vicar lived. The family I am researching is Steel(e), I don't recognise any of the names mentioned in this post so far so am I correct in assuming a few different families lived at the Manse? I have tried to google Neilston Manse but I have found out very little so far.
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This also initially confused me also as my ancestors were Catholic and their address on the 1851 Census was also the Neilston Manse. Neilston Manse was the residence of the Church of Scotland minister and his family. It is not really possible that that three Irish Catholic boys were residing at this residence. In an effort to understand this record I made contact with a member of RootsChat living in Neilston.
I am grateful that MurphyZ from RootsChat helped me to understand this. Here is her reply to me..
"I have gone to Barrhead Library and looked through the microfilm of the census; the first section of the census definitely is the Manse with the minister of the parish living there, 6 people at the Manse itself. Then there is clearly a thick line under it and it continues with lots of other entries, which to me mean a new address. But there are no other addresses just pages and pages of names separated by thick black lines. Joel Harkin's entry is quite a bit further down the census from the Manse."
It would seem that the brothers resided in the same area or block as the Neilston Manse (not at the Manse inself) but at a lodging house probably built to accommodate mill workers. The occupations of their neighbours included bleachers, calico print workers, power loom weavers, spinners, servants, agricultural labourers etc. The head of the house or landlady was a cowfeeder. Many of the residents in this area of the town were born in Ireland. Hope this helps...
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Thanks mazdathomas. This helps a little, my relatives were born in Neilston and were not immigrants but they were low paid mill workers. What confused me was a Manse as far as I knew was the residence of a Vicar/Priest and to have so many people there it must have been a big house, but reading MurphyZ reply to you it seems to me that the area around the manse became known as the Manse also in other census forms of my relatives give their address as Neilston Village, I need to look into this further but I am wondering if Neilston Manse was an address used by people living in the general area of the Manse which was more like a shanty town or makeshift properties and later that area became more permanent and became known as Neilston Village. I may be wrong but I am going to try to look into the possibility. Thanks for sharing MurphyZ reply with me.
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Thanks mazdathomas. This helps a little, my relatives were born in Neilston and were not immigrants but they were low paid mill workers. What confused me was a Manse as far as I knew was the residence of a Vicar/Priest and to have so many people there it must have been a big house, but reading MurphyZ reply to you it seems to me that the area around the manse became known as the Manse also in other census forms of my relatives give their address as Neilston Village, I need to look into this further but I am wondering if Neilston Manse was an address used by people living in the general area of the Manse which was more like a shanty town or makeshift properties and later that area became more permanent and became known as Neilston Village. I may be wrong but I am going to try to look into the possibility. Thanks for sharing MurphyZ reply with me.
Neilston Manse was an isolated building and is shown in the maps of the time as such. As to the theory of Neilston being born out of a a collection of makeshift properties - Sorry, Neilston Village has an old and long history and at one time was a principal Parish of the area pre Reformation.