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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northamptonshire => Topic started by: Lizzy Drippin on Thursday 03 November 11 09:33 GMT (UK)
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I'm trying to find information about my great grandmother, Mary ann Butler, who was born in 1868 in Weedon Beck. On her birth certificate it says her father was Thomas Butler a Chelsea Pensioner. I can't find any information about them until Mary Ann's marriage in Burton on Trent and on her marriage certificate it says Thomas is deceased.
Can anyone help thanks Lizzy Drippin.
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This looks like Mary Ann in 1871?
Reference RG10, Piece 1490, Folio 124, Page 24
Cottage, Weedon
Hall, Richard Head M 62 Shoemaker b Weedon
Hall, Elizabeth Wife F 63 b Richmond, Surrey
Butler, Hannah Daughter F 26 Lace Maker b Kingston on Thames
Butler, Thomas Son M 4 b Weedon
Butler, Mary A Daughter F 2 b Weedon
Hall, John R Son M 2 b Weedon
Weedon used to have an Ordnance Depot, and barracks (cavalry and horse artillery), which might explain the military link?
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On the above census entry Hannah (nee HALL - confirmed by 1861 census entry) is recorded as married. However, I can find no record of a Hannah HALL marrying a Thomas BUTLER.
And who is the two-year-old John HALL? Obviously not Richard and Elizabeth's son, and presumably not Hannah's because of the different surname. On the 1861 census there's a 16-year-old Richard (s. Richard and Elizabeth), so perhaps this is his son?
Chelsea Pensioners' records can be found on the FindMyPast website (pay-per-view), so perhaps this may give you some further clues.
Pennie
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There is a possible marriage in Sep Q 1865:
Thomas BUTLER
Hannah HALL
Daventry 3b 180
Hannah apparently remarried as HALL in Dec Q 1872:
Edward BIRCH
Hannah HALL
Northampton 3b 186
The second marriage is confirmed by the 1881 census:
RG11; Piece 2762; Folio 48; Page 10 -
Edward BIRCH Head 40 Labourer b. Dublin, Ireland
Hannah BIRCH Wife 35 b. Kingston
Thomas BIRCH Son 14 Labourer b. Weedon
Mary Ann BIRCH Dau 12 Scholar b. Weedon
Henry BIRCH Son 9 b. Weedon
Richard HALL Wife's Father Wid 72 Shoemaker b. Weedon
John HALL Grandson 12 Scholar b. Weedon
Rambler
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Hi, Thank you so much for that information, I am going to send for the marriage certificate to find out more about Thomas Butler.
Lizzy Drippin.
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I still think the barracks at Weedon Bec will hold clues to Thomas Butler! ;D
So, looking at the 1861 census, any Thomas Butler serving in the Army finds these two possibilities:
Thomas Butler, age 19 (1842), b Kiddington Oxfordshire, Private HM 25th Regiment Kings Own Borderers, based Aldershot
Thomas Butler, age 27 (1834) Married, b Chatham Kent, Colour Sergeant Royal Marines, based Chatham
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Hi All.
Lizzy Drippin
If the marriage took place at Weedon Bec C of E we may be able
to transcribe it for you if you have not already ordered the certificate.
Sandy
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Hi.
I looked for the marriage today and it did not take place in any of
these Church of England Northants Churches.
Weedon Bec, Weedon Lois, Daventry, Floore, Newnham, Dodford, Stow nine Churches, Watford.
Also looked at Weedon R.C. marriage records. Not noted in them either.
The good news is I found the Children Baptisms. :)
Weedon Bec C of E.
1. Pg. 103, No.824
July 29th 1866
Thomas Joseph to Thomas & Hannah Butler, Lower Weedon, Private 83rd Regt.
2. Pg. 117, No. 934
Feby 7th 1869
Mary Ann to Thomas & Hannah Butler, Lower Weedon, Labourer
Sandy
Edit: There is a Non-Conformist Church in Weedon also, I wonder.
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I also looked at the other child noted with the family on the
1871 Census and note his baptism below.
Weedon Bec C of E.
Pg. 118, No. 940
Mar 28 1869
John Richard son of John & Sarah Hall, Lower Weedon, Shoemaker
Sandy
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Which lead to this marriage.
Weedon Bec C of E.
Pg. 233, No. 446
Nov 4th 1866
John Hall, full, Bachelor, Shoemaker, Lower Weedon, father Richard, Shoemaker to
Sarah Wright, full, Spinster, Floore, father John, Soldier
John signed his name, Sarah her mark
Witnesses: Robert Reynolds (signed his name) & George Wilcox
who signed his mark.
Sandy
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1. Pg. 103, No.824
July 29th 1866
Thomas Joseph to Thomas & Hannah Butler, Lower Weedon, Private 83rd Regt.
Better known as the 83rd (County of Dublin) Regiment of Foot.
Amalgamated with 86th (Royal County Down) Regiment of Foot in 1881 to form The Royal Irish Rifles.
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So it seems that maybe Thomas isn't either of the men on the
1861 Census then KGarrad.
He obviously came out of the Army before Mary Ann's baptism.
And supposedly died before the 2nd marriage in 1872.
There are nice piccies and history here about the Depot.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ghm/
They are still impressive today.
Sandy
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Hi Sandy
Thanks for all that information, I have sent for the marriage certificate, perhaps they got married at the register office. Can I ask where you found Thomas Butler was from Dublin, I also wondered if there was a burial record for Thomas Butler, I'm not sure when he died, but if Hannah remarried in 1872 they can't have been married long.
Thanks Lizzy Drippin.
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Sorry Lizzy Drippin.
I was getting confussed on the Husbands.
I can not see a burial for him.
Sandy
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I have now the marriage certificate for Thomas Butler and Hannah Hall and they were married at the Register Office Daventry. It also confirms the information given to me earlier that Thomas was in the 83rd foot. On my great grandmother's birth cert. he is a Chelsea Pensioner, he can only have been About 34, so why was he a Chelsea Pensioner.
Thanks Lizzy Drippin.
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The term "Chelsea Pensioner" simply refers to those who were pensioned out of the British Army and drew a pension (administered by the Royal Hospital at Chelsea).
It doesn't mean that your ancestor resided at the RH and wore the red livery - the majority of Chelsea Pensioners lived independently away from the hospital, often with their family.
Pennie
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Hi Pennie thank you, for that. I have looked on find my past for Thomas, but it's such a common name there are loads and I'm not sure he was born in Ireland anyway. He must have died for Hannah to remarry, but I don't think it was in the Daventry area.
Thanks again Lizzy Drippin.
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Hi Lizzie
I found something interesting at this link;
http://www.theoriginalrecord.com/database/search/decade/187
The regiment makes 3 appearances in the listing, the first of which reads as follows;
"Outstanding soldiers of the 83rd regiment of Foot (1860-1870)
The 83rd Regiment of Foot embarked for Bombay in January 1849, and took part in the suppression of the Indian Mutiny, adding "Central India" to the regimental colours. It returned to England in 1862: the regimental depot was at Chichester. In 1866 the regiment was sent to Ireland, in 1867 to Gibraltar, and in 1870 back to India. Each year just a handful of outstanding soldiers of the regiment were chosen for good conduct medals and gratuities: these are listed here. There were two lists, one for men recommended for the Good Conduct Medal without a gratuity, and one for gratuities - £5 to a private, £10 to a corporal, and £15 to a serjeant. Both lists are indexed here, and each gives rank, name, regimental number, date of recommendation and date of issue. (The sample scan is from the 105th foot)"
This suggests that he may have been posted to India at the time of the 1871 census and may have also have died there? Also, it seems possible that Hannah may have accompanied him on the earlier postings, returning home to give birth.
I clicked on the link below that entry and did a surname search and came up with one Butler in the lists in the period 1865 - 1872. I'll leave you to decide whether it's worth £8 to send for a copy of the image on the off-chance that it's Thomas. I suspect that Butler was probably quite a common surname in the regiment's normal catchment area though (searching the 1871 UK census for him on Ancestry I found Thomas Butlers born in Waterford and Down among the 95 listed).
Ian
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Hi Ian, thank you, you've gone to a lot of trouble. I would certainly send for that information and It would explain why I can't find a death for him. My problem is that he appears to have left the army by 1869. Although on my great grandmother's birth certificate he is a Chelsea Pensioner, according to other information given me on her baptism record he's listed has a labourer, so I assume he left the army shortly after her birth, although on her marriage certificate she's put him down has an infantry soldier.
Thanks again Lizzy Drippin.
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Hi
Just realised going over my research I have overlooked Henry Birch born 1872 in Weedon to Hannah and her second husband Edward Birch , he is a half brother to Thomas Butler and may provide a clue to Thomas butler's marriage to Mary Field c1893 which I have been unable to locate.
Can anyone help with Henry Birch ?