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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: jenster on Monday 07 November 11 13:24 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
Someone with a greater knowledge of NSW marriage certificates than myself may be able to offer some insight regarding the information recorded on a marriage certificate I have for a deceased relative. The mc registration number is 1930 / 012162.
The bride’s name is shown as Brenda Ruby VERNON.
The bride’s parents are listed as Norman Thomas VERNON (deceased) and Alma CLARKE (deceased).
The certificate has a notation, dated 11th July, 1932, as follows
“In column 3 for Brenda Ruby Vernon read Brenda Ruby Hanson
“In column 8 for 18 read 17
“For bride’s parentage in column 9 read Norman Victor Hanson (deceased) and Bona Vera Wyatt (deceased)”
The information in the notation is correct. Brenda Ruby HANSON is the correct birth name, and the parent’s names are correct (as per Brenda Ruby HANSON birth cert I have).
Under what circumstances are notations of this nature made to certificates?
Brenda Ruby HANSON was orphaned at the age of 8 and she and her siblings were cared for by a family member related to their father. I have confirmation that this relative had guardianship of Brenda Ruby until the end of 1928. The mc shows that consent for the bride was given by Arthur Charles Leitch Bayliss being a Guardian of Minors.
I have no idea how the VERNON family relates to the HANSON family. I can find no connection or association to a family with the surname of VERNON and I have been unable to locate any records for either Norman Thomas VERNON or Alma CLARKE.
The marriage certificate also has many numbers in the notation column, which look like reference numbers, but I do not know to what they refer. The numbers are:
31/3648
32/10892
40/48650
41/699
42/16420
46/27791
56/7770
P29409/79
Any help with trying to solve some of this mystery will be greatly appreciated.
Jenster
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;D
May I suggest you send an email to the NSW BDM general enquiries about the notation.
I think you may find that Brenda at some time after her 1930 marriage found that her nee surname was not Vernon but Hanson and perhaps was concerned if the information she had provided in 1930, and now known to be incorrect, would be causing her marriage to be voided.
I have a NSW mc post WWII where both the bride and the groom discovered that the information they provided at the time of the marriage was incorrect, (wrong fathers, completely different surnames, different dates/places of birth etc) and they both went to the NSW BDM with their respective mothers and sorted it all out. Their marriage was not voided, but the entry in the NSW BDM Reg Gen's records was amended.
The earlier information was struck through with a horizontal line (allowing the earlier text to be legible) and the amended information was placed at the side margin and through as much "blank white space" as possible. It has FIVE NSW BDM Initials, etc. One of the witnesses and the bride are still living, otherwise I would give more details.
There can be other reasons for notations on m.c. Hope this helps you ;)
General Enquiries
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/contactUs.htm
Cheers, JM
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The mc shows that consent for the bride was given by Arthur Charles Leitch Bayliss being a Guardian of Minors.
I have no idea how the VERNON family relates to the HANSON family. I can find no connection or association to a family with the surname of VERNON and I have been unable to locate any records for either Norman Thomas VERNON or Alma CLARKE.
The marriage certificate also has many numbers in the notation column, which look like reference numbers, but I do not know to what they refer. The numbers are:
31/3648
32/10892
40/48650
41/699
42/16420
46/27791
56/7770
P29409/79
Any help with trying to solve some of this mystery will be greatly appreciated.
Jenster
The numbers most likely refer to other B D M certificates with the two digits before the forward slash being for the year and the digits after that slash being the unique certificate. At the present time it is not possible to search the BDM online index just by the reference numbers, but I understand NSW BDM is revising their online index, could be this feature will be available sometime in 2012. If you have the patience and know likely surnames for family associated with Brenda, then perhaps search the online indexes under those surnames and look to compare the reference numbers.
The P29409/79 is for a separate item, "P" being for "Papers" indicating there was some papers (referenced 29409) in 1979.
Cheers, JM
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May I ask if Brenda was born in NSW?
thanks Jenn
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May I ask if Brenda was born in NSW?
Yes, Brenda was born in NSW.
@majm - Thank you for the information you provided. Family history research breeds patience ;D Until index number searches become available I will attempt to associate each of the reference numbers with other family members and events.
Cheers, Jenster
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Are you able to tell us the name of the relative who cared for Brenda and her siblings?
Thanks Jenn
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"The numbers most likely refer to other B D M certificates with the two digits before the forward slash being for the year and the digits after that slash being the unique certificate. "
MAJM
I must admit to having a wee bit of a problem with this reasoning as the ,arriage was in 1930 and the amendment was 1932 if I am reading it correctly
so if the year is before the slash ie 40/ etc to 56/ etc that would then haveto pertain to 1840 onwards. Would those years have any relevance?
just a thought Jenn
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Hi Jenn,
;D
I actually think :-[ :-[ the amendments were done in 1979, as per P290409/79, I think the years before the forward slash refer to 20th C dates, but I may well be wrong, which is why I suggested an email to general enquires at bdm ;D I could well be mistooken ;D
PS, It had not occured to me to consider the 19thc, but perhaps they do point that way :-[ :-[ :-[
Cheers, JM
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Mmmmmnn
yes it is hard to say I was going on the information supplied as the amendment being 1932 .
the information could also be file number relating to welfare of the children etc
good advice on contacting the BDM they should at least have some idea
all very interesting.
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I see Brenda's parents married in Qld
reg no 1907/B5672
groom Hanson Norman Victor
bride Wyatt Bona Vera
but no doubt you have all this information to hand
Jenn
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I see Brenda's parents married in Qld
reg no 1907/B5672
groom Hanson Norman Victor
bride Wyatt Bona Vera
but no doubt you have all this information to hand
Jenn
Yes, Brenda's parents married in Qld, then moved to NSW. I have copies of all the Qld certificates.
Cheers, Jenster
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Norman HANSON, n o k his wife Bona, enlisted in AIF 27 June 1916, at age 42 years, 10 months. His occupation Traveller.
His 61 pages of AIF service records are free to search at the NAA's online website. The address of his eldest daughter is also on the first enlistment page 16 or thereabouts, giving her address as C/- Guardian, Mrs F L Kennedy, 17 Curtis Road, Balmain.
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/search/index.aspx
Edit to add, family member wrote letter in 1955 which is on that file and also there's the pension payments for his widow and his children (all their names) from 24 Dec 1917. The Memorial Scroll and Memorial Plaque were not available until late 1921 and mid 1922, so they were received by his eldest daughter.
LEST WE FORGET
Cheers, JM
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Yes, this is Brenda's father, Norman Victor HANSON. He died of wounds received in action in Belgium in 1917. The AIF service record shows him to be a little bit of a rogue (similar to his civilian life) but I like to think of him as a loveable rogue who always tried to do the best for his family.
Cheers, Jenster
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Perhaps I am speculating but ...
16 Curtis St/Rd, Balmain on the 1913 ER may well have been a boarding house. If Brenda spent her youth at the Kennedy's at 17 Curtis St/Rd, (as per the note on the AIF files for where the Scoll and Plaque were to be sent to his n o k at her Guardian's) then perhaps various of the apparent then Boarders/lodgers at "16 Curtis" may have spun the young impressionable Brenda some tales to distract her.
Some surnames and some occupations for 16 Curtis St/Rd from the Balmain ER of 1913 ie years before Brenda was orphaned..
Appleby; Christian; Gibson; Hagan; Hull; (and that's only the early part of the alphabet, did not look further) and joiners; labourers; domestic duties; several dressmakers;
Cheers, JM
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I am curious to know who the N Hanson that wrote to CARO in 1955 from Moonee Ponds, VIC asking for information about the parents?
On the pension allotments of 1917 I can only see three daughters.
How many children did they have? The one that wrote the letter is obviously a son.
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Also, ;)
NAA has another file that has not yet been digitised for Norman Victor HANSON. It is specific to the year 1920, a critical year for young Brenda.
"Re No 6317 Pte Norman Victor Hanson 18th Batt - Application for authority to continue payment of living allowance "
The Barcode for that file would be 4776500
Cheers, JM
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Re Kennedy
Herbert KENNEDY, 17 Curtis St Balmain, as per Sands 1920 Alpha.
Cheers, JM
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Re Kennedy
Sands 1925 and Sands 1930
Herbert Kennedy, William St Bankstown.
NSW ER 1930
Herbert Frederick Thomas KENNEDY, 37 William St Bankstown, a labourer.
I note that in NSW in 1900 a Herbert Kennedy married a Florence Hanson, registered at Newtown #1817
Cheers, JM
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I note that in NSW in 1900 a Herbert Kennedy married a Florence Hanson, registered at Newtown #1817
Cheers, JM
Yes, Herbert Francis KENNEDY married Florence Lillian HANSON in 1900.
Herbert was born in Victoria. Florence was born in Tasmania.
Cheers, Jenster
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Can you please answer Jenn's question in post #3 & mine in post number #14?
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Are you able to tell us the name of the relative who cared for Brenda and her siblings?
Thanks Jenn
The carer was Florence Lillian KENNEDY
I am curious to know who the N Hanson that wrote to CARO in 1955 from Moonee Ponds, VIC asking for information about the parents?
On the pension allotments of 1917 I can only see three daughters.
How many children did they have? The one that wrote the letter is obviously a son.
You are correct, the letter was written by a son.
They had four children.
Cheers,
Jenster
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May I ask if you sent a general enquiry re the notations to the NSW BDM please?
Cheers, JM
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May I ask if you sent a general enquiry re the notations to the NSW BDM please?
Cheers, JM
I did so, but the person I spoke with was unable to explain the reference numbers in the notation.
Cheers, Jenster
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May I ask if you sent a general enquiry re the notations to the NSW BDM please?
Cheers, JM
I did so, but the person I spoke with was unable to explain the reference numbers in the notation.
Cheers, Jenster
Sometimes it is better to use the email option, and in the email say in effect "please pass my enquiry up to the person within your organisation who would have the fullest explanation at their fingertips"
Cheers, JM
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From your initial story I feel you wanted to knwo why the missinformation was supplied on the original marriage certificate??
And subsequently what happened as to why it was altered to contain the correct parentage?
Now can I ask who were the witness on the certificate?
One would feel if Brenda was in the care of Norman's relation would not she know her own fathers name and the fact that he did in the Great War and that her mum did in 1920.????
Did she marry in a registery office or a church?
thanks JEnn
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Sometimes it is better to use the email option, and in the email say in effect "please pass my enquiry up to the person within your organisation who would have the fullest explanation at their fingertips"
Cheers, JM
When I first received the m.c. I wrote to NSW BDM asking for more information relating to the reference numbers. The person who telephoned me was unable to offer an explanation.
I will try again using the email option.
From your initial story I feel you wanted to knwo why the missinformation was supplied on the original marriage certificate??
And subsequently what happened as to why it was altered to contain the correct parentage?
Now can I ask who were the witness on the certificate?
One would feel if Brenda was in the care of Norman's relation would not she know her own fathers name and the fact that he did in the Great War and that her mum did in 1920.????
Did she marry in a registery office or a church?
thanks JEnn
The marriage took place in church, St. Thomas' at Rozelle. The witnesses to the marriage are not family members. I have not tried to trace them; the chances of them still being alive is remote, being adults at the time of the marriage they would now be over 100 years of age.
I agree, it seems unrealistic that Brenda would not know the name of her parents. Especially as the marriage certificates for her siblings do have the correct parents' names recorded without any notation, and one marriage was prior to Brenda's.
Cheers, Jenster
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Is it possible that as she was rather young she may have been pregnant? Maybe she married without family knowledge and just used made up names for the certificate?
Then something happened for her to make the corrections?
Or could it just have simply been transcription errors? we have all seen that occur
Jenn
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Have you written to the actual church to see what is recorded in their register?
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Hi Jenn,
Brenda wasn't pregnant at the time of the marriage.
It may be a transcription error, but there would need to be multiple errors. The bride's surname is shown as VERNON. The bride's father's name is VERNON. And the bride's signature is VERNON.
I'm beginning to think the names are fictitious - but why??
Have you written to the actual church to see what is recorded in their register?
As yet I haven't written to the church, but will do so.
Cheers, Jenster
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Hi Jenster.
I know this post is several years old but I noticed Herbert Francis Kennedy mentioned. I have been researching him for several years as he is listed on a local war memorial. He served in the Boer War and the First World War.
I was not aware that he and his wife became guardians until I came across this thread.
Would you be willing to provide any more information about Herbert Kennedy? As I would like to elaborate further upon his life in an article I wrote which included him several years ago which I plan to re-write.
Regards,
Scott
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Hi Scott,
I've just noticed your post. I'm happy to send you information. I have far more detail regarding Herbert's wife, Florence Lillian Kennedy (nee Hanson), and her family. As there is quite a lot of information I would prefer to PM (private message) you but I notice you are a new user and possibly have not yet qualified to use private messages. Please let me know the best way to contact you - but please do not provide your email address or any private details in the response.
Regards,
Jenster
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Hi Jen.
I can read your PM but can't reply as yet. I will post again tomorrow and see if I can reply.
Regards,
Scott
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Hello again Scott,
I think from memory you need three or it could be five posts before you can use PM. The details are on one of the Home pages of RootsChat.
Regards,
Jenster
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Hi there
it is three posts to be able to use the pms
regards Jenn
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OK. I should be able to now.
Scott
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Hi Jenster.
Just checking my PM arrived to you.
Regards,
Scott