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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: andi on Tuesday 08 November 11 22:50 GMT (UK)
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My 4 x Gt Grandfather Robert Sumner was born C1799 in Simonswood according to census returns. A bapt was registered in Jan of the same year at Parochial Chapel of Kirkby, mother was Esther Sumner, abode Simonswood.
This week I have found on archivecat a document which is an 'Order of filiation and maintenance of male bastard child of Robert Molyneaux, husbandsman and Esther Sumner, single woman' I haven't viewed the document yet.
Robert Molyneux appears to have married at least twice and may have had many legitimate children but can anyone help me know if this Robert is the same one i'm looking for? Is he in your tree and can you shed any light on this?
Andi
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Kirkby Chapel.Walton,
burial
13th of January 1808
Robert Molyneux
aged 42,
abode,Walton Parish, Simonswood
Margaret Molyneux,wife of Robert
abode this parish Simonswood township,
13 th of Feb 1798,could this be Ellen Caldwell,
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on the order you have it states Robert is a husbandman
Kirkby Chapel Walton,
9th of April 1782
Robert Molineux ,husbandman of this chapelry
Margery Harrison ,spinster of the same ,of this chapelry
witness,Mary Rawlins and James Adcock,
Kirkby Chapel,Walton
14th of March 1799,
Robert Molineux,widower husbandman,of Walton,
Ellen Beesley,spinster of Ormskirk,
witness,James Adcock and Henry Glover,
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I will watch this thread with interest - my Mother in law was a Molyneux...gone back to the 1856 birth of John Molyneux in Much Woolton - can`t` find his parents though
anyway.....Your Robert Sumner
born on 12th January 1799
babtised on 27th January 1799 at Parochial Chapel of Kirkby,Walton ,Lancashire
son of Esther Sumner
abode Simonswood
registered 27th Jan 1799 by James Adcock - clerk to the chapel
babtised by R Cort - Minister
allan
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Radcliffe looks like James Adcock was a mate of Robert Molyneux ...he is a witness at both his marriages....and registers Robert Sumners babtism ......or do you think his name is there because he was the Clerk to the Chapel ?? and not actually a witness ....never seen that before....allan
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Good morning Allan,
this may be an interesting one with a lot of twists and turns,
for instance this child is the daughter of Robert and Ellen
Ellen baptism 1797 burial 1799
now Ellen and Robert were not married then, so are there two Robert and Ellens within the same church
or is someone not telling the truth
again in 1809 there is another Ellen born to Robert and Ellen ,
so I am hoping lots of people are going to come along and add there theories,
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Spurious very polite word,
James Adcock on his marriage details is clerk of this chapel and Parish,
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Thanks Radcliff...that explains James Adcock....it`s funny isn`t it....because of this thread, I looked at my family tree...done a little research...AND FOUND ANOTHER child of John Molyneux and his wife Sarah....Mary Elizabeth Molyneux....so - one more name added to tree.......thanks Andi , ...for the little nudge ...haven`t done Molyneux research for about a year...now to find John Molyneuxs parents....have him in 1881 census - born Woolton 1856, but can`t find his babtism ......
allan ;)
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in the Parochial chapel of Kirkby Walton,
1791 to 1812 ,baptisms,
Robert and Ellen predominant,Simonswood,
Robert and Margaret,2 daughters abode Simonswood
his first marriage was to Margery/Margaret ,
Ellen Molyneux,
St Swithen,Gilmoss,Liverpool,
father Robert,mother Margery
born 10 th of December,baptism 17th of December 1786,
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I was very confused, now I see he possibly married two Ellens,
firstly Ellen Caldwell
ST James Toxteth Park,
3rd of April 1791,
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The bastady document is held at Lancashire Record Office
Simonswood. Order of filiation and maintenance of male bastard child of Robert Molyneaux, husbandman, and Esther Sumner, singlewoman QSP/2421/94 1799 8 Mar
These documents are held at Lancashire Record Office
You either can go and view it at the Record Office or contact them and ask for a copy to be sent to you. They will tell you the cost. which depends on the number of pages.
Bastardy documents I have give the place for the supposed father - this may help you as he may not be from Simonswood!
Molyneux is a VERY common surname in the area. To sort out the Roberts you would probably need to go back a generation. The most probable place for church events are Kirkby St Chad's chapel. However I have family in Simonswood and occasionally they stray over to St Thomas in Melling or even to Rainford and some even went into Liverpool at this time to get married and then came home again.
This site has full transcriptions of the MIs at St Chad www.stchadskirkby.110mb.com
Gibel
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Thank you Radcliff, Garstonite and Gibel for your replies.
This is a tricky one and I have wondered if there are 2 Roberts.
I have found 4 marriages altogether 2 in St Chads Kirkby and 2 in St James Toxteth but almost all of the 19 baptisms take place at St Chads. Some of the baptism's take place too close together for there to have been another pregnancy.
Looking closer there are bapt which take place after 1808 to a Robert and Ellen so there must be two couples.
I also found a marriage of Esther Sumner to a Richard Alty in 1810 (at St Thomas, Melling) and on 1841 census there is an Esther Alty aged 70 living next door to my Robert Sumner so I think that is probably correct.
My Robert was a publican at Alty's Bridge Lydiate in 1841,
Farmer at Canal Bank, Lydiate in 1851,
Beer Seller and farmer, Altcar Lane, Lydiate in 1861
And after he passed away his wife Dorothy was publican and farmer at The Running Horses beer house, Lydiate in 1871. Its still there and i'd love to know more!!!
I wonder if Robert Molyneux's family knew he had an illegitimate son?
Will have to dig a bit more and try and get to Lan Reg Office to see which Robert is mine.
St Chads website is fantastic.
Andi
Looking again some bapt say abode Simmonswood and some don't say abode at all. Maybe that was put in to distinguish between the two??
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I wonder if Mr Molineux left a will,
where did the farm come from,was it inherited ,?
also look for an apprentice record while you are in the archives for Robert Sumners,any thing at all that may throw some light on his early life,
and yes I would think someone within the family knew he had an illegitimate son,
not easy to keep things quiet, if he was paying an allowance to the mother for her son,
Good luck in your research,
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I'd look for leases as well. Most people leased their land at that time. Perhaps for Sumner, Alty and Molyneux.
Some are on a2a but you'd probably need to consult the relevant holdings at Lancashire Record Office.
Actually first I'd look at the Lydiate tithe map as that will list the pub/farm and tell you who owned the land and then looking for a lease would be easier.
Gibel
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Will look for those thank you. Did try and have a root round for wills last night but didn't come up with anything.One Robert buried 1808 aged 42 and the other 1844 aged 73 both St Chads, Kirkby.
Also found some other children of Robert/Margaret on familysearch, baptized at St Mary the Virgin, West Derby. James 1785 (also bapt same dates at St Swithin, Gilmoss?), John 1787, William 1789 and Ellen 1792.
Not sure when I'll make it to LRO due to work. Will have to try for a saturday morning.
Andi
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is it possible we have 2 Robert/Margaret Molyneux here ??? St Swithins is Roman Catholic - St Chads is not??....or were they babtised in both religions ?...one of the parents being Catholic ?.....allan
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I now have 5 marriages
St Chads, Kirkby 1782 Robert Molyneux = Margery Harrison
St Anne's Liverpool 1786 Robert Molyneux = Margaret Wilson
St James, Toxteth, Lancashire, England 1787 Robert Molyneux = Margaret Chisnel
St James, Toxteth, Lancashire, England 1791 Robert Molyneux = Ellen Caldwell
St Chads, Kirkby 1799 Robert Molynrux = Ellen Beesley
You'd think they could have managed to vary it a bit wouldn't you?? ;D
Will try and keep sorting through it & yes I think there may have been a mixed faith marriage going on with one of the couples!
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Banns of marriage between Robert Molyneux,now resident in Kirkby who has resided there all his life,and Ellen Caldwell,now resident in Kirkby who has resided there all her life,were published in this church,
March 20th,
March 27th,
April 3rd 1891,
and no impediment alleged,
Wm Wise,
the residance of the above named parties is as above,
witness our hand 3rd of April 1891,
Robert Molyneux , Ellen Caldwell
St James,Toxteth Park
marriage,St James Toxteth Park,
Robert Molyneux,batchelor,of this parish,husbandman
Ellen Caldwell of this parish,spinster of the same parish,
married by banns 3rd of April 1791
in the presence of Ellen Caldwell and Martha Molyneux,
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Robert Molyneux of Liverpool,ropemaker,
Margaret Wilson of the same parish,
married by banns
12th of October 1786,
witness William Wilson and Thos Wright,
Richmond St Ann
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St James Toxteth Park,
2nd of January 1787,
Robery Molyneux ,batchelor,husbandman of this parish,
Margaret Chisnell,widow, of the same parish,
married by banns,
witness Charles Mulinax,and ?Spencer
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For the record the Molyneux family were Lords / Earls / Viscounts and owned HUGE amounts of land and property ...Speke Hall and Croxteth Hall amongst them...there was Sir William Molyneux who fought in a Famous battle around 1515 ....try a google for Molyneux at Croxteth Hall / Speke Hall ....allan :)
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I had heard of the Molyneux's which was why I was intrigued when I found the link. However, as usual, I am probably only related to the poorer side!!
There seems to be a will for the Robert who died 1808 but not the one in 1844. Lots of searching still to do. Happy days
Andi
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Re: Robert Molyneux of Simonswood
« Reply #17 on: Thursday 10 November 11 19:26 GMT (UK) »
Banns of marriage between Robert Molyneux,now resident in Kirkby who has resided there all his life,and Ellen Caldwell,now resident in Kirkby who has resided there all her life,were published in this church,
March 20th,
March 27th,
April 3rd 1891,
and no impediment alleged,
Wm Wise,
the residance of the above named parties is as above,
witness our hand 3rd of April 1891,
Robert Molyneux , Ellen Caldwell
St James,Toxteth Park
marriage,St James Toxteth Park,
Robert Molyneux,batchelor,of this parish,husbandman
Ellen Caldwell of this parish,spinster of the same parish,
married by banns 3rd of April 1791
in the presence of Ellen Caldwell and Martha Molyneux,
This is great Radcliff but where did you find it??? I would like to know if the same amount of info exists for the marriage of Robert Mollyneux - Margaret Chisnel 2 Jan 1787 at same church.
Andi
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Every thing I have found for you I have posted ,I have looked extensively using every paying and free site I can access,just keep going ,possibly I will find some thing else quite by accident as that is usually how I find things,
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I think we could possibly rule out the Robert Mullineux rope maker as there is one buried 12th of May 1787,
abode Frederick Street,
rope maker,
St Peter Liverpool
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I agree and have discarded that marriage. I've also done an excel doc sifting through the 22 births and think it looks like:
(a)Robert and Ellen Beesley had 5 children between their marriage in 1799 and 1808 when Robert dies. Can't find burial for Ellen.
(b) Robert and Ellen Caldwell had 9 children between their marriage in 1791 and 1812. Ellen dies in 1834 and Robert in 1844.
(c) Robert married a Margery but I think she may have also used Margaret and Mary. The children James (1785) and Ellen (1786) were both bapt in St Mary the Virgin West Derby and St Swithin, Gilmoss (Catholic). Bapt for James says mother Margaret but bap for Ellen says mother Mary for 1 church but Margery for the other???????
The only other distinction is that the births up to 1792 are in St Mary the Virgin West Derby and from 1794 to 1801 are in St Chad's Kirkby and only the last two have abode Simmonswood.
I really have appreciated your input on this as I am currently only able to use free sites which is very frustrating at times.
Andi
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Robert Molyneux baptised Walton 8 July 1770, married Ellen Caldwell 3 April 1791 St. James, Toxteth, was my 4 x great grandfather. He was a labourer/gardener for Ellen's father John Caldwell who ran a large plant nursery at Radshaw Nook, Knowsley. He was married only once to my knowledge.
Someone mentioned, was it, Jas. Adkins (?) being a mate of Robert Molyneux because he's also witnessed his marriage. He was actually the church warden and as such he witnessed most of the events at the church!
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Andi
I'll have a look to see how many Robert Molyneuxs there were in that area at that time, just to see if there's one you've missed.
Chris
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Hi Chris,
Thanks for your help. Do you know of any children that came from the marriage of your Robert and Ellen? I created a document to try and fathom all the children and parents out - all guesswork but with a bit of logic I hope - and I think they may have had 9 but it would be great if you could confirm what I think.
Andi
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All events Kirkby
Margaret 1791
Elizabeth 1795
Ellen 1797 - 1799
John 1799 - 1878
Elias 1802
William 1804
George 1806
Robert 1807
Ellen 1807 - 1860
Thomas 1812 - 1890 - my line
Andi, my email address is: (*) contact me and I'll invite you to look at my tree on ancestry.com
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What about Jane Molyneux born 3 April 1804 Kirkby ?