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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 15 November 11 08:32 GMT (UK)

Title: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Tephra on Tuesday 15 November 11 08:32 GMT (UK)


Welcome to this weeks Scavenger Hunt and it's going to be a real Search and Rescue......... definitely a challenge for you.

Good Luck and Good Hunting

Barbara

                              *************************

I have William BILNEY (commonly called WHITING) and just cant get further than him..
First record of him is his marriage to Lydia Wright 18 Jan 1796 in Helmingham,they are listed as "both of this parish" and his is listed as William Bilney commonly called Whiting,the witness's were Robert Copping and Henry Smith. PR and also FindMyPast

On the baptisms of his children They are baptised in the name BILNER But William is always listed "Bilney commonly called Whiting"
His children then seem to alternate the names Bilner/Billiner/Whiting   
For Instance my Gt Gt Gt Gt Grandfather Samuel was baptised 7 Jun 1807 in Helmingham,his first marriage was listed as Billiner and second marriage Bilner.
On SAMULlS childrens baptisms,Hemingstone(PR'S) he is listed as Samuel Bilner Whiting and he alternates between the 2 names ie 1851 and 1861 and 1881,he is WHITTING (Whiting) throughout the censuses untill his death in 1886 where he is listed as Bilner,hence my family name is now Whiting..

So back to William,after his marriage and baptisms of his children the next info i can find of him is in 1841 census,he is at barham(union workhouse) listed as William Whiting,his wife Lydia is in Helmingham listed as Bilner,Lydia is next found on the 1851 census with her sons family in Ashboking listed as Lydia Whiting (as her sons family is also listed Whiting) Lydia died1860 in the name Lydia Billiner (ashboking) PR'S
William died in the workhouse(unfortunatly the records have been destroyed so can find no info from there) But he was then buried at Helmingham 1848 listed as "William Bilney commonly called Whiting" PR'S.

Now on the PR'S for William they are very precise about it being Bilney commonly called Whiting,i have found no variation to this (Bilney)whatsoever for William,so i have no idea why his children are Baptised as Bilner,also have no idea why some have used the name Bilner and others Whiting,in fact my gt gt grandfather had no idea until he had to use his birth certificate that his name was in fact Bilner.

The fact that the entire family alternates between the names makes it a very hard family to track,but i am utterly stuck on William,is his name Bilney??Bilner??Whiting?? Where did he come from?? In 1841 census the tick for "of this county" is there so i presume Suffolk,but of course that could mean nothing..

There is alot of bilner/Whitings out framlingham way but the PR's couldnt find William.

For refernce his children were  ALL BORN HELMINGHAM
LYDIA bn 1797 married in 1821 in the name LYDIA BILENY
GEORGE bn 1800 (havent found marriage or death but in 1851 he is listed as WHITING in southminster,Essex)
JOHN bn 1803,married 1835 in the name BILNEY,died 1886 BILNER(his children used Whiting)
My Samuel 1807
JAMES bn 1810,he and his children used the name WHITING can find no death
MARY ANN bn 1811,married 1839 in name BILNER WHITING
HENRY bn 1813,his family used the name BILNER
Robert bn 1814 died 1815
EDWARD bn 1815 (can find no trace of him after this)

I am sorry this is so long but i have tried to include as much detail as i possibly can for you all,i hope it isnt too confusing

Many Thanks
Danni
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: toni* on Tuesday 15 November 11 09:54 GMT (UK)
well my first thoughts are that William was illegitimate and was christened as Bilney but when his mother married to Mr. Whiting he tokk this name and thus became William Whiting but as Mr Whiting was not his natural father William didn't then become legitimate and in offical documents was called Bilney ( & variants)


(there is an argument whether when 2 parents marry any children born before this date become legitimate i believe they do, others do not)

of course the law would not allow him to inherit from Mr. Whiting unless he was specifically mentioned in his will, its only recently that half blood relatives have been able to do so. that is of course if Mr Whiting was not his natural father.

Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 15 November 11 10:00 GMT (UK)
Hi Danni. Great puzzle.  ;)

I'm not sure I can help at all, but for starters you should probably treat Bilney/Billiner/Bilner/Bileny as the same surname, but with slight variations. They weren't so caught up with correct spellings in those days.  

Maybe William's baptism will give a clue to the Bilney/Whiting puzzle. Is one of the names his mother's surname? Was he illegitimate?

Do you have Williams death certificate? Unlikely to give further clues, but maybe worth getting? Do you know why he died in the workhouse while Lydia is living with family?

Did any of William's family leave wills? Relationships may be mentioned?

There are some wonderful Suffolk experts who may be able to help - I only hope they see this post.  ;)

Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 15 November 11 10:16 GMT (UK)
Have you seen the PR's on FreeREG? They have a William Whiting chr 1754 Rattlesden, parents William and Ann. This William and Ann also appear to have a son Samuel ....  :-\ Bit of a long shot I know .... and goes no way to explaining the use of the surname Bilney:-\
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: toni* on Tuesday 15 November 11 10:21 GMT (UK)
he maried in 1796 which is perfect timing for

land tax records 1780- 1832 The land tax was a national tax levied on landowners from the 1690s. Only one complete set of returns for 1798 survives for England and Wales (in the National Archives), but many returns are available in local record offices. The returns (or 'duplicates' as they are often known) were made for each township and record the names of owners and occupiers and the sum to which they were assessed.
(book, 1873 Return of Owners of Land)
Land Tax Records should be held at the County Record Office however they are not all there and are not always are complete. TNA can help to locate documents relating tot a particular manor so it would help if the Manor is known, - Manorial Document Register (MDR) a card index in the man search room at TNA is listed by name of manor and includes information about what documents have survived and where they can be found (not at TNA) some of the index cards have been put online, (Yorkshire, Wales, Middlesex, Surrey, Norfolk, Cumberland, Westmorland, Isle of Wight Hampshire and Furness (now Cumbria)) www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/mdr/ also try www.a2a.org.uk 
 
 
 
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: toni* on Tuesday 15 November 11 10:25 GMT (UK)
Helmingham is an old parish with the hall there being built in the 1480's (i think)  therefore it should have manorial records and these would probably be worth consulting also for mentions of Bilneys

 Manorial Records, after 1066 the land of England was divided into Manors granted to faithful servants of the King. These did not always correspond with the boundaries of villages, towns, parishes etc. and often had their own name.
Manorial Court Rolls these refer to two types of court, Baron Court & Lett Court the latter tends to deal with law and order, on the other hand Court Baron is concerned with recording those who held land from the manor. 
(Manorial) Rental, listing all the tenants in a manor their holdings and how much they paid in rent to the manor. copyhold (now called leasehold 19th c) if you lived in or owned a house that technically came under the Manor  upon death or any over reason for the property being passed to another party even down the family line you would have to apply to the lord of the manor to do so and his consent would have to be given – even in wills (these should be  recorded in the Manor estate documents and possibly the court rolls)
Manorial Accounts recorded the income and expenditure of the manor though these generally do not contain personal names.
Manorial Documents were written in Latin until 1733.
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: jaywit on Tuesday 15 November 11 10:45 GMT (UK)
What was his age on his death? That will give us some idea when to look for a baptism.
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Framesmiths1816 on Tuesday 15 November 11 10:58 GMT (UK)
Is it possible that William's mother married twice, perhaps due to being widdowed early? Her first marriage could have been Bilney and the second one Whiting?

Just a thought - FS

Added - I note that there are also Bilney's in Huntingfield, St Cross and Withersdale areas around the late 1700's.
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 15 November 11 11:00 GMT (UK)
What was his age on his death? That will give us some idea when to look for a baptism.

If I found the right William Whiting, he was 70 in the 1841 census, so b 1771. Unsure of accuracy as he was in the workhouse .... (so obviously not the Freereg baptism I found earlier  ;))
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: jaywit on Tuesday 15 November 11 11:04 GMT (UK)
There's a Bilney here.

Suffolk
Place South Elmham All Saints
Church All Saints
RegisterNumber 
MarriageDate 13 Nov 1784
GroomForename Francis
GroomSurname BILNEY
GroomAge 
GroomParish 
GroomCondition Single
GroomOccupation 
GroomAbode 
BrideForename Margaret
BrideSurname ARNOLD

May be worth keeping a note of.
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Danuella on Tuesday 15 November 11 11:19 GMT (UK)
WOW all of these whilst i've been dealing with my kiddie winkles lol

toni,trip to the records office for those records then :)
Ruskie,yup thats what 've been doing,just treating it as the same name:) No i havent found any wlls whatsoever and have no clue why he was in the workhouse as the records were destroyed :( Sods law eh!!
I could find no menton of a bilney in Helmingham before William although there wa a Ann Whiting married there in 1704,poss a relation..But that was the last mention of her .
Jaywit,he was 82 years old when he died,yes there where quite a few Bilneys around but have found no connection as yet to any
Framesmith1816 now THATS something i've never thought of!!
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: jaywit on Tuesday 15 November 11 11:23 GMT (UK)
It looks like there were a few Whitings in Helmingham which possibly brings us back to William being either Bilney then his mother married a Whiting or Bilney mother being single and naming a Whiting as his father.

So I think the PRs of the surrounding villages need looking at.
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Framesmiths1816 on Tuesday 15 November 11 11:48 GMT (UK)
Framesmith1816 now THATS something i've never thought of!!


If this is an idea that has not been investigated then may I suggest investigating the death and burial of the mother, if and when she becomes known. It is not uncommon for spouses of first marriages to be interred together dispite there being a second marriage and many decades between the two deaths.

FS
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Danuella on Tuesday 15 November 11 12:26 GMT (UK)
I will definatly fo that,IF i ever find out where William comes from :( I wondered f trying to trace all his children would give a clue but there are some of them  just cant find so who knows eh  ???
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: toni* on Tuesday 15 November 11 12:48 GMT (UK)
have i missed something ? if he was 70 on the 1841 census and 82 when he died that means he died circa 1853 whch means he should be on the 1851 census which means you should be able to get where he says he was born ?

you may not have to go to the records office you could email them and ask.
the land tax records for 1798 are at The National Archives so i think it would be worth emailing them and asking how much it would cost to send you a copy you are only looking at Helmingham
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Danuella on Tuesday 15 November 11 12:51 GMT (UK)
Hi toni,sorry for any confuson he ded 1849,i presume the workhouse listed his age incorrectly,or maybe they just didnt know!! Or maybe HE didnt know and his age at death is incorrect lol,gotta love it havent you :)
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Framesmiths1816 on Tuesday 15 November 11 12:53 GMT (UK)
The NBI has the following

21st April 1849 William Bilney 82 Helmingham St Mary.

If this is him then it fits with the 1841, remembering that the 1841's are rounded down so 70 gives a range 70 to 74 so a calculated birth of between 1767 and 1771. 1767 as a birth year fits.

FS
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Danuella on Tuesday 15 November 11 12:55 GMT (UK)
FS
 Yup,thats my man :)
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Framesmiths1816 on Tuesday 15 November 11 13:06 GMT (UK)
When he dies, what parish is the workhouse in? I would assume the one that serves Helmingham? Also if the wedding says "of this parish" then both seem to point to William being born close by Helmingham.

What religion is the family? Is there any chance they were Baptists or Methodists? Where are the nearest meeting house or chapel? Do their baptism records still exist?

If you have searched Helmingham Parish Register and not found him, this could be a reason for him not being in it.

FS
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Danuella on Tuesday 15 November 11 13:13 GMT (UK)
Yes,its Bosmere union,Helmingham is in Bosmere.Yes they are both "of this parish" I am unsure what religion they are(how would you discover that??) But the baptisms of his children and marriages etc are in the helmingham PR's.
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 15 November 11 13:25 GMT (UK)
If the children were baptised in Helmingham St Mary then you would expect the family to be CofE.

http://www.suffolkchurches.co.uk/helmingham.htm
It's beautiful. :)
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Framesmiths1816 on Tuesday 15 November 11 13:27 GMT (UK)
Well....it is quite possible he was brought up C of E but his  father (? Bilney) might not have been. Non conformist churches were not licensed to marry until well after 1800 but they could  baptise and kept their own baptism registers.

It might be worth checking out. People were willing to walk/travel relatively long distances to go to the church of their faith so do not be put off if the nearest looks to be some distance from Helmingham.

FS

Added - I have more than a few members of my family where the parents were Baptists but the children were CofE
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Danuella on Tuesday 15 November 11 13:30 GMT (UK)
Thansk Ruskie,its is a very beautiful church,i dot live too far away so have had a visit there :)
Will get on it FS thanks :)
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Tephra on Tuesday 29 November 11 09:31 GMT (UK)



This weeks Scavenger Hunt is a confirmation Hunt..... pretty easy     ;D

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,568959.0.html


Good Luck and Good Hunting

Barbara


As usual, this Hunt will remain open for any further information which may come in.

Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Wildthing on Thursday 24 November 16 15:42 GMT (UK)
Hi,
Am very new at this, so apologies in advance if I do something wrong!

I believe that one ancestor LYDIA WRIGHT is the one that married WILLIAM WHITING BILNEY.
I believe this Lydia to be the one baptised at Stonham Aspall in 1778.  Unfortunately, the parish register only lists the father's name, SAMUEL WRIGHT, but from other records, I believe her mother was a LYDIA THREDKEL.

From the parish register for St Mary, Bedingfield, Suffolk:-

26 April 1772 William Whiting BILNEY, baseborn son of ELIZABETH BILNEY baptised.

A search on the Suffolk Records Office website, brings up a marriage licence bond:-
'WILLIAM WHITING, yeoman, widower and ELIZABETH BILNEY, singlewoman, both of Bedingfield.  To be married at Bedingfield.  Dated 14 July 1772.'

The actual marriage took place at Bedingfield on 21 July 1772.

I think that this William was buried at Bedingfield on 14 August 1808. His age was ecorded as 74, which would give a DOB as 1734, and that his wife, Elizabeth was buried at same on 6 November 1809, aged 57 (so born abt 1752).

WILLIAM WHITING BILNEY was buried at Helmingham, on 21 April 1849, but his abode is shown as Barham Union Workhouse.

I have found him on the 1841 census for the workhouse (surname under WHITING).  I have also found his wife, LYDIA in the census for 1841 and 1851.  In 1841, she appears to be living on her own, her name is shown as LIDIA BILNER.  In 1851, she can be found at Ashbocking:-

LYDIA WHITTING, lodger, widow, aged 74, birthplace Stonham Asphe.  Occupation shows 'parish relief'.
Head of household is shown as MARY ANN WHITING and 4 of Mary Ann;s children.

Lydia WHITING als BILLINER was buried at Ashbocking on 8 January 1860.

Haven't yet be able to determine who WILLIAM WHITING was married to before Elizabeth, or where he was baptised, but I hope the information I have given above helps you in your searching.

Good Luck!

Regards

Jacqui


Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 25 November 16 02:00 GMT (UK)
Welcome to rootschat Jacqui.

I'm afraid that Danuella hasn't been on rootschat since August 2012. She has a note by her profile saying that her email is not working - presumably this means she is no longer receiving notifications of replies to her threads which is a shame.

I don't know if there is anything you can do apart from hope that she returns to check one day.

If someone comes along who is researching the same families, then they will be able to join rootschat to make contact with you (this happens quite often) as google searches of "names" often throw up rootschat threads.

If you need any help or can be of help to others, please continue posting. It is always good to have new members.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Danuella on Monday 07 January 19 16:01 GMT (UK)
Hi,
Am very new at this, so apologies in advance if I do something wrong!

I believe that one ancestor LYDIA WRIGHT is the one that married WILLIAM WHITING BILNEY.
I believe this Lydia to be the one baptised at Stonham Aspall in 1778.  Unfortunately, the parish register only lists the father's name, SAMUEL WRIGHT, but from other records, I believe her mother was a LYDIA THREDKEL.

From the parish register for St Mary, Bedingfield, Suffolk:-

26 April 1772 William Whiting BILNEY, baseborn son of ELIZABETH BILNEY baptised.

A search on the Suffolk Records Office website, brings up a marriage licence bond:-
'WILLIAM WHITING, yeoman, widower and ELIZABETH BILNEY, singlewoman, both of Bedingfield.  To be married at Bedingfield.  Dated 14 July 1772.'

The actual marriage took place at Bedingfield on 21 July 1772.

I think that this William was buried at Bedingfield on 14 August 1808. His age was ecorded as 74, which would give a DOB as 1734, and that his wife, Elizabeth was buried at same on 6 November 1809, aged 57 (so born abt 1752).

WILLIAM WHITING BILNEY was buried at Helmingham, on 21 April 1849, but his abode is shown as Barham Union Workhouse.

I have found him on the 1841 census for the workhouse (surname under WHITING).  I have also found his wife, LYDIA in the census for 1841 and 1851.  In 1841, she appears to be living on her own, her name is shown as LIDIA BILNER.  In 1851, she can be found at Ashbocking:-

LYDIA WHITTING, lodger, widow, aged 74, birthplace Stonham Asphe.  Occupation shows 'parish relief'.
Head of household is shown as MARY ANN WHITING and 4 of Mary Ann;s children.

Lydia WHITING als BILLINER was buried at Ashbocking on 8 January 1860.

Haven't yet be able to determine who WILLIAM WHITING was married to before Elizabeth, or where he was baptised, but I hope the information I have given above helps you in your searching.

Good Luck!

Regards

Jacqui
I am absolutely stunned!!! I haven't been able to log in for a while and me and my children were just searching for our names origin and this came up in my browser!!
Jacqui I am absolutely floored!! You have found the connection!! I have been searching for about 2 decades to find him,and you have found him for me!! I am unbelievably grateful to you.
Thank you so so much
Xx
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: bearkat on Monday 07 January 19 16:24 GMT (UK)
A brick wall broken down is brilliant news  ;D

Hopefully wildthing will get notification of your reply and be in touch.

I really enjoyed the scavenger hunts, perhaps we could bring them back  ???
Title: Re: Danuella's Scavenger Hunt... Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Danuella on Monday 07 January 19 23:28 GMT (UK)
I just can't believe it,after all these years!!
I've been coming back to it off and on and just got absolutely nowhere,I'm thrilled!
I haven't been on for a few years(had kids lol so genealogy has taken a back seat for a while) so didn't realise they'd stopped the scavenger hunts,what a shame,I used to enjoy them 😁😁