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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: mlkabel on Tuesday 15 November 11 22:11 GMT (UK)
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Looking for any info on Elizabeth Swain, b. early 1800's, married Baikie Sinclair somewhere in Manitoba. Baikie worked for the Hudson Bay company and retired to Red River Settlement mid 1800's.
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Hi mlkabel,
I believe the Hudson Bay Compny records are in Winnipeg, Mb.. I'm not sure if they would have vitals records there since it was likely in a frontier location at that time - not sure if there were any churches there then. If not, the records would have been sent to the central church in eastern Canada.
JDC
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http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=AHN&db=kandshill_gamma&id=I17690
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The only info I have on her is that Baikie & Elizabeth had a son Geroge Sinclair baptised at St. Andrew's on May 9, 1852 and that there was an Elizabeth Sinclair who was buried at St. Andrews's on Sept. 11, 1857 aged 45.
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They also had a daughter Nancy Sinclair, father Baki her basic details from marriage to George Folster in 1878
St.Andrew's Anglican Church, Lockport, Manitoba.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/001/098/001098-119.01-e.php?&id_nbr=6255
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I have a copy of Sinclair, Bakie (Baikie) service records from the Hudson Bay Company, but I don't know where or who Elizabeth Swain is from or her parents/siblings. I seem to recall that the HBC does not have records of employee spouse's. She has been a mystery to me for 20+ years. ??? Thank you for all your help: J.J./ vbain & jdc.
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Hi mkkabel,
Perhaps the Manaitoba genealogical Society may be able to help. Here is their web link: http://www.mbgenealogy.com/. Hope it helps,
JDC
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I imagine you have followed through on the children born to James Swain & a native woman from Fort severn... Their son James ended up in Lisgar district, so they may have as well...
I see Bakie is 89 and widowed by the 1881 census, here with son Thomas age 26...as he was obviously many years her senior ( He'd have been 73 at the time of birth of Thomas, did she die in childbirth?)
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/census-1881/001049-119.02-e.php?id=MAN_957626
Are you located in Mb. Have you looked at the 1870 census at the archives, or has she passed on before then?
What makes you think born early 1800's or is that a guess... Gals married early back then you know...
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Yes I have checked on a few Swain's but they don't seem to fit. I have an Elizabeth Sinclair who was buried at St. Andrews in 1857, she seems to fit (I have a letter from the Anglican Church but they have no other info on her). It has been said down the line that it was possible that she may have been married before Baikie but no one knows this for sure and we can't prove it. I was hoping that more of Baikie's decendant's were looking into their family roots. I have heard from a few but they also have hit a wall. I wish I had more time and were able to travel to WPG (3.5 hours) to sit in the HBC archive's or that they would put the records online however I know this would be a job and a half. I appreciate your efforts. Lou
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So the daughter of the immigrant patriarch James appears to not be yours, then...married to George McLeod...I see the marriage in the Kipling files, and there are children listed...
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/METISGEN/2009-10/1256413759
There are so few Swain in the region, you'd think it would come together... :P You may find out more by looking at his whereabouts around when the first child was born as you say he was not always in the Red River Settlement...However, if it was a marriage of the country then it may never be found...and any other information found now by elimination, still may only be speculation...but I wish you luck with your search.
The HBC archives are fabulous, and the basic details are just that compared to the full files...If you have contacted the HBC and they have many files on your man, a stay in Wpg. would be so interesting for you just to see what he may have bought or delivered that day...what the weather was like at the time, etc...Priceless info. You'll likely find more than what they have on file. A must see for Fur trade descendants. Make sure the archives are open for the duration of your stay, as it takes days to go through it all..& I have found it closed on the odd weekday for various reasons...
I imagine this archive may have the same information...http://www.glenbow.org/collections/search/findingAids/archhtm/sinclair.cfm
http://www.glenbow.org/collections/search/findingAids/archhtm/sinclair.cfm
hate to send you off to another posting, but we probably can't help with this one...Sounds as though he may have been married before once or twice... However there are these others searching as you probably know. I believe I have run into one of them while at the archives...
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=20151216766&topic=14717&post=68463
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Betsy was born c.1830 claims the two to be her parents ( Elizabeth Swain was metis) also scrip for Jane George & Mary http://www.rootschat.com/links/0h7g/ http://sunsite.ualberta.ca/Projects/MNC/images/MA/pdf/C14933/C14933_393.pdf so all those children listed seem to be theirs. She was born in the "North west" so the Territories somewhere. :P J.J.
( In other words, the marriage was likely a country one, so no documents...)
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Once again, Thank You J.J. :)
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wish I could help. The fur trade is such a cool era in history!!! Those fellas were tough as nails... ;D J.J.
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You can get into the H.B. archives.
http://www.gov.mb.ca/chc/archives/research.html
It is very repetitive, but I did see the Surname Swain.Be persistent.
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There are a number of PDF Files regarding Swain at
http://discovery.gov.mb.ca/search?q=swain&entqr=0&output=xml_no_dtd&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&ud=1&client=manitoba&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&proxystylesheet=manitoba&site=default_collection&x=7&y=8
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Thank you vbain. I think I will have to try and plan a trip to the HBC archives after I pin point some dates in the mid 1800's. :)
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I didn't bother to look at Bakie's HBC basic info as you said you had it, but in it are mentioned the children and the 1870 census, so good thing I did not go do that lookup for you. Please state what you have, as you said the only child you knew of was George, however 1870 has his children listed as Bethsy c.1837, George c.1849, Thomas c.1853, and Nancy c.1855. so altho we found all these for you, you already had them...
So Elizabeth jr./Bethsy was born 12 years or morevbefore the next child? This may be so, and there may have been children between who died...but also this gap could mean the eldest daughter was from a previous coupling for either Baikie or Elizabeth. Without her on a census, we do not know if she was from Saskatchewan or Manitoba....and if only the last three children were hers, might she have been younger than speculated?
You are in a tough era where Cumberland House records are only available starting at 1845 when he'd already left, and the RR census detailing heads of household and number in house/ sometimes no. & gender of children are only available to 1843 just prior to his moving there....There was an 1856 census, but I don't think it was enumerated by personal information
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Was Elizabeth the only one who claimed Elizabeth Swain to be mother?
No...From Scrip docs, I do see there was also a Mary...married a Parke, how old was she?
This could mean that one of the earlier Elizabeth Sinclair buried in St.Andrews or elsewhere could have been a first wife, Eliz. Swain, and if there was a next Elizabeth -she may not have been surname Swain. the others called her Elizabeth Sinclair in their scrip claim.
Sorry to throw you off, but all angles looked at can sometime obtusely come together eventually....I would contact other descendants of these 2 and see if they all have marriage certs for the children to make sure it was surname Swain for mother before moving on...
(I also now note from scrip that Jane=Nancy Folster and remember now that Nancy said her mother was Swain at marriage)
Here is Mary w. 6 children 1881 Lisgar, married to George Park prior to 1870, says born Mb. so likely St.Andrews c. 1848/1849...
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e329/e008210114.jpg
George Folster & Nancy w.2 children 1881 http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e329/e008210104.jpg
Elizabeth is hard to find. She said she was 45 in 1875, born N.W....and had children, was on 1870 with father...
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J.J, so far I have: George Sinclair ( my grandfather ) b. 1852, St Andrews, William Sinclair b. 1838,Oxford NWT, Elizabeth b.1830, NWT? married a Robert Baillie. I have a few other names but am unable to confirm they are from Baikie. Also in "The Genealogy of the First Metis Nation" I have found Baikie Sinclair b. 1801, married to Elizabeth Swain b. 1805. There is an Elizabeth Swain who was married to a McLeod daughter of James Swain and an Indian woman but she was born 1820, so I don't think she was the one. So far everyone that I have contacted in the family that are still alive have no clue as to her or her family. My one distant relative who lived in Lockport/ St Andrews area in the early part of the 1920's has stated that he does not recall anything about her. My Aunt who passed away at 102 in 1995 said that her father George never talked of his family so she only knew her name. Oh well I will plug along, some day the pieces will fit together. I do thank you for all your help, you have come up with some new searches for me. Lou
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You have left out Nancy/Jane (n.sinclair) Folster from your list, as well as Mary (n.sinclair) Parke, both of whom declared Baikie as father and Elizabeth Swain as mother on their scrip claims...Thomas was in the 1870 household, although he also could have been a grandchild, and two households before Mary in 1881 is a William b. N.W.T. and family who may be the Wm. you also know more about, although again, you originally said you only knew of George...
This site hasn't come up previous searches, so isn't well placed for search engines to find...as I found it using the names Baillie Sinclair, not Swain Sinclair. ....ask the poster how they confirmed the birth parents to be Blaikie & Betsy Swain. I also see Jane & Nancy listed as sisters who married Folsters. There are 14 children listed, Mary and a Joseph and James listed before Elizabeth, so we are talking several births well before 1830. That death found 1857 aged 45 either had the wrong age, or Elizabeth Swain had one baby a year from 1827 to 1830...and was 14 or 15 at the time...not impossible, mind you. but I'm a little sceptical...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0hhs/
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There is a Joseph Sinclair b. 4-06-1841 listed to Bakie Sinclair/Elizabeth Swain. This from the St. Boniface Historical Society. I am from that lineage and would like to connect with others.
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Hi there, my great grandfather was Baikie Sinclair. My grandfather was George Sinclair.
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mlkabel thats super!! I'm still trying to link up correctly..George is listed as his first son, no?
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No he was born in 1852ish... He had older brothers and sisters.
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I have these 2 photos that have surfaced. The first with the young man standing is Joseph Sinclair with the man seated being Bakie Sinclair,his father. The second is of Joseph in his elderly years with his granddaughter Nancy McKay.
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Wow, great pics! Unfortunatley my husband's lines all end with "Indian woman" so not finding the ladies is not unusual...
St Andre... For those who who haven't seen these, & did not know, 1870 census is a blessing.... if listed properly as it lists fathers....
Bakie is listed as a widower ( veuf) Note that some surnames are phonetic
James Sinclair c.1848 & wife Maria ( fthr: Waller)
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1870/jpg/e010985504.jpg
Isabel with husband Julius Maccaber c. 1841 ( Muggenberg...may actually be Muegenberg)
Bakie (with an overflourish on the "a" looks like Beaky) with Bethsy c.1837 & George c.1851
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1870/jpg/e010985505.jpg
next page Thomas c.1853 & Nancy c.1855 /and Fanny c. 1838 with spouse John Sanderson
Catherine c. 1846 w. spouse Joseph Donald ( m. recorded 1864 June 30 altho says fthr Wm)
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1870/jpg/e010985506.jpg
Jane w. sp.John Folster
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1870/jpg/e010985511.jpg
In St.Clements Marie & sp. George park Jr.
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1870/jpg/e010985536.jpg
Bethsy c.1837 Fanny c.1838 Isabel c.1841 Catherine c.1846 James c.1848
Jane c.1850 Marie c. 1850 George c.1851 ( bapt. St. Andrew's May 9 1852) Thomas c.1853 Nancy c.1855 ....You can look for all the others born previously yourselves...
Looking at this James, born 1799 to father also James Swain ...with wife Margaret (Racette)
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1870/jpg/e010985495.jpg
It appears his siblings are all accounted for...but...his father James born circa 1775 England had a brother Thomas whose HBC profile is not written up ...are his children all accounted for?
https://www.gov.mb.ca/chc/archives/hbca/biographical/s/swain_james-sr.pdf
Here is a Thomas Swain born circa 1800... living in Poplar point http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1870/jpg/e010985683.jpg
Make sure you look for proof yourself, as you can't believe everything you find online
this online info, likely supplied to her by that family, says Jas Jr. above died 15 years before he appears quite alive in 1870 St. Andrews as shown above http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/METISGEN/2009-10/1256413759
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Another pic, this is the geneolgy done by my fathers side (Sinclair) linking Elizabeth and Bakie to our lineage. I have other pics somewhere of the land scrips and census as well. I'll search :)
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Where did they get the birth death dates for aelizabeth Swain?? Didn't Elizabeth perhaps die in 1857? ( and if so she was born circa 1812 ) I'm wondering if this may have been a second marriage for Bakie and even for her. Is there actual proof that Swain was the surname for all births?
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That is the first Picture of Bakie I have ever seen! My dad would have liked to have seen it. I am traveling to Orkney next June 2017 and somewhere I read on this site a reference to Francis which would be my Great great Aunt. And where she is buried. I would like to visit there. Can anyone help me with information on her and her children. Thank you!
I have these 2 photos that have surfaced. The first with the young man standing is Joseph Sinclair with the man seated being Bakie Sinclair,his father. The second is of Joseph in his elderly years with his granddaughter Nancy McKay.
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Elizabeth and Bakie are my Great Great grandparents. I have that family tree. What I am looking for is information on Bakie's twin sister. I know that research has been done and I would like to visit the burial site when I am in Orkney next June. Any help would be appreciated.
Another pic, this is the geneolgy done by my fathers side (Sinclair) linking Elizabeth and Bakie to our lineage. I have other pics somewhere of the land scrips and census as well. I'll search :)
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I don't think so! My father did a fair amount of research on this before he passed away including the day to day activities in the HBC archives. It appears it was only Elizabeth.
Where did they get the birth death dates for aelizabeth Swain?? Didn't Elizabeth perhaps die in 1857? ( and if so she was born circa 1812 ) I'm wondering if this may have been a second marriage for Bakie and even for her. Is there actual proof that Swain was the surname for all births?
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Hello all,
My name is Douglas. I attend U of T Mississauga campus. I enrolled in a History and Writing course. I chose to right about my Métis family history. My line descends from Stanley Harold Sinclair, who was the son of George Sinclair, who was the son of James Sinclair, who was the son of Baikie Sinclair and Elizabeth Swain.
I would appreciate any further information anyone can offer. If anyone can share stories, information, pictures, documents, and or are willing to be interviewed, I would greatly appreciate it.
Cheers!
Douglas
Moderator edit: Post edited at OP's request to remove personal information and the names of possibly living persons. Spades
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Bakie Sinclair was My great, great, great Grandfather and My Mother and I have been tracing our history for awhile. would be happy to hear from anyone related trying to figure out the family tree. My Mother Carole is Daughter of George and Pearl Sinclair. George came from Kenora Canada his father was also Named George son of James Sinclair who was the son of Bakie Sinclair
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Hi d.r.s.90 and davidmillar, and welcome to RootsChat :)
Can I suggest that you each post twice more to this topic (a smiley in each post will be fine) to activate your Personal Message (PM) facility. Then you can exchange personal information and email addresses etc. in private.
Here's a link to the guide to Personal Messages.
https://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
Congratulations on finding each other. 8) :)
Oh, and Douglas, I edited your initial post above as per your request. ;)
Spades