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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: colcal on Friday 18 November 11 18:28 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to trace my Werner Family from Alsace. I have a lot of names, handed down to me in a family tree, but cannot match any of them and the dates on Ancestry.co. as the French records are very poor.
I am looking for Emilie Werner 1895 who married a Victer Bayer. Their children were Camille, Henri, and Maria Renee. There is also a Charles Galotte and Charles Bouveax who were in-laws.
If any of these names are familiar, I would love to hear from you.
regards colcal
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Do you have a more specific place for this family then just "Alsace"?
If Emilie was b. 1895 then you should be able to find her birth, and depending on where it is it may be online in the Departmental archives.
"Alsace" covers two departments: Bas-Rhin (has records online up to 1902) and Haut-Rhin (has records online up to 1892). If you know the exact place you can look at the original images (there are no digitised indexes by name so you can't search as you would with something like freebmd).
If you don't have a more exact place, do you have information on the emigrant ancestor (whoever was first to leave Alsace), as there may be some records in the country they emigrated to which tell you their birthplace.
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Thank you very much for your reply.
I have had another look at my family tree, which is written in French and the ink has badly faded, so it is very difficult to read. Its starts with Paul Henri Emile Werner born 19.06.1834, Strasbourg and gives an address which is 336 Route de Colmar. I have also found a photo of him sitting outside his house in 1909. His daughter Emile Sophia Werner born 30.04. 1866 "Grand Dame, a Lady" what ever that means, married a Victor Bayer born 28.01.1850. Apparently he had a factory in Vincennes, it looks like, in Paris that was destroyed in 1905. I have looked at Ancestry.com again and cannot find any of them.
I am going to try yet another search with just the surname, in case the forenames are in correct.
regards colcal
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Hi again! I have just found a magnifying glass and had another look at the birth places. Paul Henri Emile was born in Brasseur Schilighiem and his daughter Emilie Sophia was born in Eckbolshiem and died in Vincennes Paris 1909.
The first Werner who came to England was my Great Grandfather Paul Edouard born 1869 who married a Margret Philips. I have found them online, but unfortunately none of the others.
regards colcal
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For your place names:
Schiltigheim is a place near Strasbourg known as "Cité des Brasseurs"
Eckbolshiem is also in Bas-Rhin
Vincennes is on the east of Paris and technically in Val-de-Marne department. (so those are the archives where records will be held)
Ancestry is not much good for France.
familysearch.org shows the 1882 marriage of Emilie and Victor and quite a few other records for the family including the birth of her brother Paul Edouard in 1869 in Strasbourg.
You need the Bas Rhin archives to see the original images.
http://archives.cg67.fr/
then "Registres paroissiaux et d'état civil"
The 1882 marriage is recorded in German.
Emilie's birth is shown in Eckbolshiem in 1862. She is registered under her mother's surname, Griebel, and with no father's name but with a marginal note showing that she was recognized as the legitimate child of Paul Henri Werner when her parents married 24 Jun 1865 in Strasbourg.
The marriage is also there - shows Paul Henri Emile as b. 19 June 1834 Strasbourg, legitimate son of Pierre Werner (deceased Strasbourg 14 Jan 1861), and of Catherine (Rig?), residing in Strasbourg.
and his wife Frederique Griebol, b. 21 Mar 1845 Strasbourg, legitimate daughter of the late Jean Jacques Griebol d. Strasbourg 8th October 1860, and of Frederique Schwing, residing in Strasbourg. It also gives Emilie's details.
As you can see, records in this area give a lot of details. There are some indexed on familysearch but not all, and it's always worth looking at the originals. e.g. there is a birth record on familysearch for Paul Henri Emile but the original also gives his father's age and occupation, witness names etc. Similarly there is a marriage for Pierre Werner and Catherine Rig listed in 1829 but the original shows their birthdates, birthplaces, parents' names, death dates/places for parents, details of Pierre's previous wife and where/when she died, etc.
It is worth the time to get used to the French sites. There is a useful word list here:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/search/rg/guide/WLFrench.asp
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Dear jorose
Thank you so much for sending me all that information, I cannot believe how much you found in such a short time.
I will start looking on the website's you mentioned and hopefully find some more family.
Thank you again, regards colcal
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I have found my Werner family and the chataux they lived in, which was 336, avenue DE Colmar. I googled the address and found it sandwiched in between two modern blocks covered with protest banners against the Mayor, Roland Ries.
I was wondering if anyone knows if it has been demolished because i would loved to have visited my fathers families home
Regards volcal
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http://archives.bas-rhin.fr/proxy/downloadimage.ashx?image=/ad67_ec/ad67_ec_rev_0091/ad64_ec_482/ad67_ec_48214630/ad67_ec_482146300067.jp2
I hope the link will work (I made a test , it worked but I had to do the trial twice).
Paul Henri Emile WERNER born on the 19th of June 1834 in Strasbourg, 115 rue des petites boucheries, in the house of his parents Pierre Werner 50 years's old ," directeur des messageries "and his wife Catherine RIG, two witnesses Paul Werner 22 , caporal in the 19th Régiment d'Infanterie Légère and Blaise Kirchiller
I found no Paul Henri Werner in Schiltigheim in 1834 (could have been a namesake)
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http://archives.bas-rhin.fr/detail-document/ETAT-CIVIL-C478-P1-R293869#visio/page:ETAT-CIVIL-C478-P1-R293869-3533323
24 july 1829 Strasbourg
Marriage Pierre Werner (born 22 september 1785 in Nancy (departement de la Meurthe) ,stage-coach driver, widower of Catherine Frédéric ,son of the late Jean Werner "maréchal expert"? expert blacksmith? who died in Nancy 18 germinal an 10 and the late Marie THIBAUT who died 11 may 1806 in Nancy
and Catherine Rig born 8 Brumaire an 9 in SARREBOURG (Meurthe) daughter of the late Jean RIG professional soldier, and Marie Barbe FOURNIE (R) who died 30 november 1813 in SARREBOURG
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http://archives.bas-rhin.fr/detail-document/ETAT-CIVIL-C478-P1-R294120#visio/page:ETAT-CIVIL-C478-P1-R294120-3663951
Marriage Paul Henri Emile Werner 24 june 1865 Strasbourg,commis négociant (assistant trader, merchant), Pierre Werner is said "inspecteur des messageries générales" died 14 january 1861
to Frederique GRIEBEL born 21 march 1845 Strasbourg, daughter of Jean Jacques GRIEBEL, shoemaker who died 8 october 1860 in Strasbourg and Frédérique SCHWING.
They recognized as their daughter Emilie Sophie GRIEBEL born 30 april 1862, registered on the 2d of may:
http://archives.bas-rhin.fr/detail-document/ETAT-CIVIL-C118-P1-R96476#visio/page:ETAT-CIVIL-C118-P1-R96476-419841
occupation of Frédérique Griebel : singer and she was 17.
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http://p8.storage.canalblog.com/86/49/620535/49714006.pdf
Pierre Werner worked in the messageries générales , transport company , and Paul Henri was once a stage coach driver
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Dear Joger,
Thank you so much for your replies, you have helped me before and I'm very grateful. I am going to spend today rewriting my Werner tree. I think one of my families properties i mentioned at 336, avenue de Colmar, has probably already been demolished by developers, very sad. I think the protest against Roland Ries ( the mayor) was because he is given permission to knock all these beautiful chateaux down for modern flats. Shameful!
Kind regards colcal
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You're welcome . I know it is difficult to search through th archives if you don't read french fluently.
http://archives.bas-rhin.fr/detail-document/ETAT-CIVIL-C478-P1-R293354#visio/page:ETAT-CIVIL-C478-P1-R293354-3447029
Paul Edouard born 30 july 1869 in Strasbourg son of Paul Henri Emile Werner, 35, trader and Frédérique GRIEBEL 24 years'old at nb 60 rue du faubourg de pierres (nb 60 no longer exists but you can see the street on Google , and may be nb 60 in 1869 still exists with another number nowadays.
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http://archives.bas-rhin.fr/detail-document/ETAT-CIVIL-C478-P1-R293169#visio/page:ETAT-CIVIL-C478-P1-R293169-3430023
birth Frédérique GRIEBEL 21/02/01845 Strasbourg to jean jacques Griebel and Frederique SCHWING nb 8 Contades (difficult to say exactly where it is ) .
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http://archives.bas-rhin.fr/detail-document/ETAT-CIVIL-C478-P1-R294914#visio/page:ETAT-CIVIL-C478-P1-R294914-3561650
death of Jean Jacques GRIEBEL 8 october 1860 in the hospital of Strasbourg, 60, born in Strasbourg , shoemaker,living Grand-Rue, husband of Frederique Griebel. Extremely rare : in the margin is written the cause of the death : rhumatisme musculaire= ? what nowadays?
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http://archives.bas-rhin.fr/detail-document/ETAT-CIVIL-C478-P1-R294238#visio/page:ETAT-CIVIL-C478-P1-R294238-3597733
Marriage Bayer /Werner in 1882
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http://archivesenligne.archives.cg54.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTgtMDQtMjkiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MTtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6NzE1NDtzOjE2OiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sIjtiOjE7czoyMToidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbF9tb2RlIjtzOjQ6InByb2QiO30=#uielem_move=-123%2C-508&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=89&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
page 50/362
birth of Pierre Werner 22/september/1785 Nancy
son of Jean Werner , blacksmith , farrier and Marie Thiebaud , godfather Pierre Péan veterinarian in Nancy and godmother Marie Vatot spouse of Antoine Dufour expert blacksmith in the regiment of the 3 dragons.
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Translation of the marriage act Bayer/Werner
Victor Bayer owner of a maltinghouse (or malting plant), catholic, born 25 january 1859, Strasbourg, living in Schiltigheim (Bas Rhin) son of the late Pierre Bayer, locomotive fireman and the late Antoinette Hatterer (who both lived in Strasbourg when they were alive)
Emilie Sophie Werner, no occupation , catholic, born 30 april 1862 Eckbolsheim (Bas Rhin), living in Strasbourg, daughter of Paul Henri Werner , merchant and Frederique Griebel, living in Strasbourg
Witnesses :Emile Klaus , architect and Louis Kieffer retired army commender
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The story of the house 336 rue de Colmar
http://www.archi-wiki.org/Adresse:336_Avenue_de_Colmar_(Strasbourg)
name of the architect, original plans ,photos
I was there in December 2016 and 2017, I could have taken photos for you, may be too late.
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Dear Joger,
Thank you once again for all your help and the kind offer of photos of 336 avenue de Colmar but alas, as you say I'm sure its to late. My late father's brother has a photo of, i think, Paul Edouard Werner sitting outside smoking his pipe and some very elegant ladies standing on the balcony. The house looked so beautiful then, completely different to the way it looks now although its a hundred times nicer then the modern flats they want to build in its place.
My Great grandfather moved from Strasbourg to Paris and then brought my grandmother to London, there she married and had my father. In the 1970's my grandmother did get some inheritance from the family chataux, not sure if it was the one at 336 Colmar. Apparentely the Nazi army looted a lot of silverware and art work from the chateaux so my grandmothers share was a fraction of what she should have had. Also for some technical reason the Werner property and money went to the Bayer line, but she did get a silver cutlery set with the family crest on, not quite the same.
I am trying to persued my brother to drive to Colmar this year, it looks so beautiful.
Thank you once again and kind regards colcal
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http://www.archi-wiki.org/Adresse:336_Avenue_de_Colmar_(Strasbourg)#Construction1
The link again .
Click on it and tell me if it works (I don't understand what hapenned, it worked when i wrte the message but I tried it again and it didn't any longer)
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http://archives.bas-rhin.fr/detail-document/ETAT-CIVIL-C478-P1-R293895#visio/page:ETAT-CIVIL-C478-P1-R293895-3537112
marriage Griebel /Schwing in Strasbourg 29 april 1833
Jean Jacques Griebel born 2 germinal an 8 (23 march 1800) in Strasbourg, son of jean george griebel, shoemaker and Marguerite Madeleine Simon, and Frederique Schwing born in Strasbourg 27 nov 1812 daughter of the late Philippe Jacques Schwing , baker and Catherine Diemer who died 15 may 1819 in Strasbourg.
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http://archives.bas-rhin.fr/detail-document/ETAT-CIVIL-C478-P1-R294619#visio/page:ETAT-CIVIL-C478-P1-R294619-3525495
death of Catherine Elisabeth SCHWING (30 years, 10 months , 14 days 's old) née DIEMER 15 may 1819 in Strasbourg , widow of Philippe Jacques Schwing,in the house 16 rue du Marroquin, daughter of the late Jean Valentin Diemer , "tamissier "( sieve -maker , -seller, -user in a plant?) and Catherine Elisabeth FELS
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http://archives.bas-rhin.fr/detail-document/ETAT-CIVIL-C478-P1-R293169#visio/page:ETAT-CIVIL-C478-P1-R293169-3430023
birth Frédérique GRIEBEL 21/02/01845 Strasbourg to jean jacques Griebel and Frederique SCHWING nb 8 Contades (difficult to say exactly where it is ) .
Sorry : born 21 March 1845
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Have you been able to go and see the house with the last link I gave you, and to understand what's written ? Tell me if I must translate.
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Dear Joger,
Thank you very much for the link you sent. My brother and myself are going to try and go to Alsace in late summer.
I was able to understand the link but what confuses me is it appears the Werner's only rented the upstairs of the property so it cannot be the chataux that my Grandmother recieved a small inheritance from.
I have a postcard written by her saying she lived near Strasbourg Cathedral and that an ancestor had his name somewhere in the Cathedral. Apparentely she had a great Aunt who was a Marchioness in Alsace so perhaps it is her.
I have one surviving Uncle that might be able to help, i will have to get in touch with him.
Kind regards colcal
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You got it right: the owner lived on the ground floor and Emil Werner rented the upper floor. He did not own the house.
I was about to tell you that this house cannot be called a chateau (= castle) , it is only a big house built in 1903.
But it is really interesting to have the plans of the house.
A great aunt of your grandmother can be found, it is not so old. What's the name of your grandmother, if I may ask?
Concerning the name in the cathedral, be aware that a name written anywhere does not mean that it is one of your ancestors, and the cathedral of Strasbourg is big , if you don't know where the name is written you may not find it.
it 's a really good idea to go and see the places where ancestors lived. And Alsace is a wonderful region of France.
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Hello jogger,
Thank you again for your reply. I thought too that the house at Ave DE Colmar was a bit small to be called a chateaux so unless my Uncle has an address it will be very hard go trace this chateaux my Werner family owned. Unfortunately he is ill at the moment and i dont want to bother him, so i will ask him when he is hopefully better. My grandmothers name was Marie Werner born around 1889 in London. Her father was Paul Edouward Werner born in Alsace in 1869 and mother Margaret Phillips. His father was Paul Henrie Emile Werner 1834-1913. I think it was might of been his sister who was a Marchioness.
Kind regards colcal
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So, Marie said that one of her great aunts was an Alsacian marquise (marchioness).
What is exactly a great aunt? According to the Collins dictionary in England a great aunt is an aunt of one 's father or mother = sister of any of one's 4 grandparents).
In France a great aunt is the sister of one's grandparents (any of the 4 grand parents) , or the spouse of a brother of any of one's 4 grandparents (grande tante par alliance) (may be it is also the case in England ).
So we'll have to find all the sisters of Paul Henri Emile Werner and all the sisters of Frederique Griebel, and all the spouses of all the brothers of Paul Henri Emile and all the spouses of all the brothers of Frederique Griebel.
If I'm wrong , please , anybody who's reading , do tell me.
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First child to the couple Werner /Rig
11/july/1830 Pierre François Alfred
died on the 24th of July 1831
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Other children born in Strasbourg to the couple Werner /Rig from 1830 to 1842 :
I found Paul Henri Emile 1834, and no one else.
May be they no longer lived in Strasbourg, but Pierre Werner died there.
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Here is the death act of Pierre François Alfred.
The death was registered by 2 neighbours , which explains the mishmash in the age of the child said to be 1 month an 14 days (it is 1 year in fact).
I checked the births register : he was born 1830 and died 1831, there was no other Werner child born in between.
The cause of death is written in the margin : I read hy? aigüe du cerveau , which could mean hydropisie aigüe du cerveau? Anyway something concerning the head , the brain.
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You give 1913 for Paul Henri Emile year of death , in Strasbourg I presume ?
Unfortunately the registers are digitized up to 1912. Do you know the month and day?
Have you been on Familysearch, as jorose advized you to (he or she always gives good advice).
You have the occupation of Paul Edward (hotel cook), the names and places of birth of his 3 children (Marian May, your grandmother ?, Pauline Sarah and Marcel Edward?
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I found a brother of Paul Edouard : Pierre Henri Alfred , born 28/05/1868 Strasbourg
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Here is Pierre Henri Alfred Military record
He died in Sedan 4 january 191(5?)
http://archives.cd08.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo3OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTgtMDUtMTMiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO3M6MToiNyI7czo0OiJyZWYyIjtzOjQ6IjEzNDMiO3M6MjI6ImZvcmNlX251bV9pbWFnZV9kZXBhcnQiO2k6NTU7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=0%2C0&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=32&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
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And even more interesting for you , Paul Edouard's military record
go and see the site in order to be able to read it correctly
http://archives.marne.fr/ark:/86869/a0114570775140yojVM/1/326
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Translation of the military record of Paul Edouard:
Paul Edouard Werner
Numéro matricule 797
Signalement = description
Hair and eyebrows brunet, blue eyes, forehead uncovered , nose and mouth middle sized, oval face, round chin ; Height 1,58 m
Occupation : cook , born 30/07/1869 Strasbourg , living in Reims 25 chaussée du port, son of Paul Henri Emile and Frédérique Griebel living in Strasbourg, number 51 of the draw of Reims, Volonteer army, for 3 years on the 11 th of march 1891 at the town hall of the 13th arrondissement of in the 160 th regiment of infantry Paris. 11 March 1894 ,went in the reserves of the active army, received a certificate of good conduct.
160 th regiment of infantry
Regiment d’infanterie subdivisionnaire de Reims (reserves)
46 th territorial regiment of infantry 11 march 1903
51st regiment of infantry
Campaign against Germany from 1st may 1917 to 30th november 1918
Considered deserter on the 20 october 1915., dismissal of proceedings 27 april 1917
.He presented himself at the General Consulate of France in London 12d of march 1917, was affected to the 132 d regiment of infantry, arrived ther on the 1st of may 1917, was affected to the 51st regiment of infantry 1 st april 1918.
Sent home 30 november 1918
Freed from military service 10 december 1918
Adresses :
14 march 1894 Paris 9th arrondissement Rue Jocquelet (Joquelet)
8 march 1895 Paris rue Beauregard 18th Arr
30 april 1895 London Café Royal Regent street (this residence is irregular)
rue joquelet :
http://vergue.com/post/569/Rue-Joquelet
rue Beauregard:
http://www.parisrues.com/rues02/paris-02-rue-beauregard.html
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Found another brother of Paul Edouard : Charles Henri
http://archives.marne.fr/ark:/86869/a0114570775141tx31i/1/72
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Hello. I was born in 1970. My mother born in 1940 grew up in Germany, as did her mother Lore Werner and father Julius/Jules. My grandmother's maiden name was Lore WERNER. Her parents were LOUIS WERNER and Margaret- born around 1880s? Louis Werner's father I think was from Strasbourg and was name Carl/Karl. He was one of 5 children. I think one of the five kids was a sister named Sophie Werner and a brother named Carl/Karl. Carl and his Werner nephew immigrated to Beatrice, Nebraska around 1850s and were part of the Homestead Act in the 1860s to get their 160 acres and more of land for their already established farm. Some of the eariliest white people in Nebraska. They were like the 3rd ones to sign up for this Homestead Act, and their neighbor Daniel Freeman was #1. Werner married into the Graff family. Huge Graff/Arnault family in Beatrice, Nebraska and elsewhere in NE now. Anyone connected to them?