Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: Gmar on Saturday 19 November 11 04:25 GMT (UK)

Title: Family crest Burt
Post by: Gmar on Saturday 19 November 11 04:25 GMT (UK)
I have a picture of the family crest granted to Sir Thomas de Burt in 1197 and a short history of how it was granted. Where or how do I find out more about it? Thank you
Title: Re: Family crest Burt
Post by: davidbappleton on Tuesday 22 November 11 21:42 GMT (UK)
I'd be interested in hearing the story of the grant; it is my understanding that the majority of coats of arms in the late 12th Century were simply adopted, or what we now call "self-assumed," rather than being granted by a king or other ruler.

Given the relative paucity of records from that time period, I am not certain that there are many sources available to learn more about it.  You might try contacting the College of Arms in London and see if they can tell you anything more.

Title: Re: Family crest Burt
Post by: behindthefrogs on Tuesday 22 November 11 22:34 GMT (UK)
I can't find any reference to a coat of arms or a crest (which sits on the helm(et) in the coat of arms) for a de Burt, in any of the standard reference works.  Fairbairn's Crests describes a number of crests for people with the surname Burt.  If you can you describe the crest (not the shield) I may be able to add a little.  Does the coat of arms include a motto?
Title: Re: Family crest Burt
Post by: Gmar on Thursday 24 November 11 09:31 GMT (UK)
I have a hand done article  given to me by my grandmother Margaret Burt which was given to her by her uncle. It is divided into 3 sections. One lists the "Civil" side of the family which details the deeds of 8 Burts that range from inventor of a typewriter, Detective Inspector John Burt whose toughest job was defeating the efforts of the two boys;namely King Edward V111 and George V1. In the middle is the coat of arms for the family of Burt with one of the crests and Mottoes. This was granted to Sir Thomas de Burt in the year 1197 Anno Domini by King Richard [Coeur de Leon] on His return from the Third crusade and after his release from captivity in Austria. The Scottish Brabch of the Family came north with the ancestor of King Robert de Bruce and their buriel ground id near his. The scottish is "All for the Better" The English one "know Thyself" The other section is about the military, like a VC winner, 5 brothers who served together in1st DurhamRoyal Engineers {vols}
 Will take a photo and put it here.That Collage of arms rings a bell I may have more info. Thanks
Title: Re: Family crest Burt
Post by: behindthefrogs on Thursday 24 November 11 10:51 GMT (UK)
Neither of those mottos matches anything of interest.  They are anyway presumably relatively modern changes as the original motto would have been in Latin which most families would have preserved.
Title: Re: Family crest Burt
Post by: Gmar on Saturday 26 November 11 03:22 GMT (UK)
Thank you David. I followed your lead and ended in the Court of the Lord Lyon.This site is very informative about the coat of arms,clan crest,etc. I printed out 4 pages. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
Title: Re: Family crest Burt
Post by: Yoga.girl on Tuesday 12 February 13 23:31 GMT (UK)
Hi Gmar

I read your post about the Burt crest and think we are related.  I have been reading histories written by a Margaret Burt.  I am making a family history book and would like to include the crest.  It there a way I can get a copy?  Thanks

Title: Re: Family crest Burt
Post by: mjake52 on Sunday 20 December 15 19:55 GMT (UK)
I would also like any informtion on the crest and whom recieved..I am from the same lines and would like contact on this....
Title: Re: Family crest Burt
Post by: angie29 on Tuesday 02 February 16 14:59 GMT (UK)

A couple of you obviously know the law, the rest of you seem unaware...

There is no such thing as "a family crest" or "a family coat of arms" for a particular surname

Coats of arms are granted to a particular person on a particular date, and are inherited by the direct male line of descent according the the wording of the original grant, details of which are kept by the relevant granting authority.

Sometimes even a man's brother is not entitled to use his brother's coat of arms.

A crest is the badge on the top of the shield. Only men are allowed crests except in the case of royalty.

NO ONE is allowed to buy "your family coat of arms" and start using it.

The right to arms has to be confirmed by the issuing authority, or a granting authority is petitioned to request a new grant of arms.

Not everyone with the same surname has the right to use arms granted to a person of that name.

Most people have no right to hereditary coats of arms at all.

In England it is a civil offence to assume another man's coat of arms and they can sued for liable through the Court of Chivalry, in Scotland it is a criminal offence and the Lord Lyon takes action.

The College of Arms London was incorporated by Richard III, before that arms were just assumed, but had to be confirmed in the various County Visitations that took place, the originals of which are kept at the College of Arms, the many published variations have been heavily edited in places and are variable in the quality of evidence they provide.

Burke's General Armory is not a good source.

If you want to claim the right to use a coat of arms you must first prove, with primary source evidence, your male line descent from the man to whom they were granted and only then might the College of Arms or granting authority confirm your right to use them.

The further back you go the more difficult this becomes, in England, church birth death and marriage records were only required to be kept from 1538, and many didn't start then or parts have been lost.

This is a very basic outline of the laws of heraldry.

Best of luck everyone.
Title: Re: Family crest Burt
Post by: MaecW on Thursday 04 February 16 11:22 GMT (UK)
Generally I'd agree with the statement "there is no such thing as a family crest" but there is one exception : Scottish Clan Crests. I quote from the official guide ("") which makes clear the restrictions on the use of Coats of Arms but has the following to say concerning the use of the Crest:

"You can wear or display the Crest

Any kinsman/kinswoman of an armigerous Chief of Name and Arms may wear a device bearing the Chief’s Crest. Typically this will be a strap-and-buckle design, worn as a cap-badge, kilt-pin, plaid brooch etc. and used as a graphic image (on literature, merchandise and the like). In theory, the Crest belongs to the Chief (or senior Armiger) and properly, permission should be sought and fealty sworn. But informally, most Chiefs are only too happy to see as many people as possible wearing the Crest Badge.

The Chief, by the way, wears the Crest inside a simple circlet, with three eagle feathers. Chieftains and the heir of the Chief wear two feathers. Armigers of that name wear a single feather.

It also needs to be noted that this relates only to Clans officially recognized as such by Lyon King of Arms and not to other families, however well established.