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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: 999WOODBURN on Thursday 24 November 11 02:35 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
Came across this site / forum looking for information about Julia Reily from the Albury / Wodonga area in the late 1800's. Julia is my wife's g-g-grandmother.
Julia married John Carlile in Albury 15-Nov-1862. Information on the marriage certificate is very scant.
Birth certificate for Julia's youngest daughter, Margaret May (my wife's g-grandmother) in 1882 states Julia was 39 years old at the time and born in Campbelltown NSW. No record can be found of this birth. Father, John Carlile, is shown as 46 years old from Belfast, Ireland.
I have found a Reiley family comprising Edward (29), Mary (27) and Julia (3) arrived on the ship Elphinstone from Roscommon, Ireland in 1840.
NSW birth records then show a John Reily born to Edward and Mary Reily in Campbelltown, NSW in 1845.
Could this be the link to our Julia ie. she wasn't actually born in Campbelltown, but arrived there with her family as a very young child.
There is a Julia Carlile who died in Albury in 1885, but father's name is shown as Laurence. Haven't got a copy of this certificate yet, but will do so if nothing else can be found.
Any information would be much appreciated.
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Can you list all the information on the marriage certificate please..even if it does not seem like much.
If it is an image of the handwritten original, and if Julia signed, can you comment on the signature ...does it suggest that she might have had some education?
The birth certificate for Margaret Mary, 1882, who is the informant?.
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Thanks for the prompt response.
Attached are images of both the marriage certificate and birth certificate.
Hope you read them OK.
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Hi 999WOODBURN,
;D ;D Welcome to RootsChat!! ;D ;D
This post by JM will help with finding those dreaded blanks on the marriage certificate:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Debra :)
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Civil registration of births did not commence in NSW until 1856, so before that you would be looking for a church record of baptism. I do see a Julia A. RILEY baptised at Parramatta in 1841 to Thomas and Jane.
Modified to note that she may be the infant death, also in 1841.
Debra :)
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:) Hi
Interesting to see different spelling of the Reily bride and the Reilly witness.
Just an example of how you have to watch out for spelling in searching names.If indeed they were from the same family.
Kia Ora,
Carl. ;D
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Hi, I just did a check of BMD for Edward Reily and Mary Reily Deaths, there doesn't seem to be any ??? ??? WELL with that spelling....Unless
From NSW BDM
7666/1896 REILLY MARY father EDWARD Mother JANE PICTON
4688/1891 REILLY EDWARD Father PHILIP Mother JULIA CAMDEN
Maybe ::) ???
Neil ;D
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Family search has a submitted entry of a birth for
Julia Rielly in Campbelltown, NSW 25 June 1842 with parents
Lawrence Rielly and Ann Tully and Julia's death in Albury, NSW in 1885.
regards,
Ros
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Thanks everyone for all the helpful information - still avenues to explore.
I have spent some time now compiling an ancestral chart for my wife and have accumulated a vast amount of information - yes we have even found a couple of convicts!
Besdies the grisly Alice Hudson (my wife's grandmother's cousin) murder, we have unearthed instances of suicide, death by tragic accident, Gallipoli veterans, multiple marriages, hordes of children (one g-g-g grandfather was responsible for 21 children over 2 marriages) and so on.
The heritage is predominantly English, with a bit of Irish, spread over Tasmania, Victoria and New South Wales, and extends back over many generations. As far as I know at this time, the latest any of her ancestors arrived in Australia was 1869, with earliest Australian birth an Elizabeth Taylor (of all names!) in Tasmania in 1819.
Thanks again. I will keep looking and it is likely I will be back to this forum on the basis of the guidance I have got so far.
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In response to post by "rosball" - that would fit!
What is the source of this information as I don't think it shows up in the Australian BDM index on Ancestry.com?
We know Julia married John Carlile in Albury in 1862, then had children in 1863,1865,1868,1871,1873,1876,1879 & 1882.
We know a Julia Carlile (father Laurence) died in Albury in 1885, but as I haven't yet got a copy of this certificate, I am not absolutely sure this is our Julia.
If it is our Julia, she would have left a husband and 8 children ranging is ages from 3 to 22.
John Carlile may have remarried Agnes Garing in 1886. Agnes was around the same age, from the same place (Granya) and had been widowed in 1882.
Thanks again.
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Do you know where "GRANYA" is. Certificates and any sources would have to come from Victoria. After the division of States in 1854 although I am unsure if Granya was at that time still in NSW.
Have you checked Victorian Records.
Neil
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Granya Gap or Mt Granya is East of Wodonga.
Fantastic place to go trail bike riding ;)
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That's correct. Granya is in Victoria just south of the NSW border.
We are fairly certain John and Julia lived at Granya, but her first 6 children, born between 1863 and 1876, all appear on the NSW BDM index in the district of Albury.
The youngest two, born in 1879 and 1882, are in the Victorian records.
Looking further on the basis of earlier posts, I have found a Lawrence Reilley (27), wife Anne (28) and son John (6) all arrived on 12 Feb 1842 from Cavan in Ireland on the Champion. Also found that a Michael Reilly was born to Lawrence and Anne Reilly in Albury in 1855. Presumably John and Michael were Julia's brothers.
Still looking.
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Immigration of the REILLY family on the 'Champion' 1842:
REILLY Lawrence age 27yrs
Native place: Killincar Cavan Ireland
Occupation: Farm Labourer
Religion: Roman Catholic
Notes: Son of James and Judith Reilly, both dead. Hus of Anne
REILLY Anne age 28yrs
Native place: Tuorka Cavan Ireland
Occupation: House Servant
Religion: Roman Catholic
Notes: Dau of James and Nancy Tully. Wife of Lawrence
REILLY John age 6yrs
Native place: Cavan Ireland
Religion: Roman Catholic
Notes: Son of Lawrence and Anne Reilly
There are other REILLY's onboard that are possibly related considering some of the children below have the same given names.
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There are five children's christenings registered to Laurence & Anne, four in NSW & one in VIC:
RILEY Judeth M - Christening (possibly Julia?)
Father: Lawrence
Mother: Ann
Reg Year: 1843
Ref Number: V18431881 61
Parish: Campbelltown, St John's, Roman Catholic
REILY James - Christening
Father: Lawrence
Mother: Ann
Reg Year: 1845
Ref Number: V18452172 62
Parish: Campbelltown, St John's, Roman Catholic
REILY Terence T - Christening
Father: Laurence
Mother: Ann
Reg Year: 1847
Ref Number: V18472177 65
Parish: Campbelltown, St John's, Roman Catholic
RIELY Bernard - Christening
Father: Laurance
Mother: Annie TULLY
Reg Year: 1849
Birth Place: KILMORE
Reg Number: 34915
Denomination: ROMAN CATHOLIC
Parish: KILMORE
REILLY Michael - Christening
Father: Laurence
Mother: Anne
Reg Year: 1855
Ref Number: V18553269 72
Parish: Albury (Co. Goulburn), Roman Catholic
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Pardon the pun, but you are a wizard Merlin !!!
What is the source of this information? - I have been looking online for quite some time through Ancestry.com and lots of other sites, but have found nothing like this !
If I might prevail on you for a little more - Can you tell me anything about Julia's (Judeth) husband, John Carlile?
Birth details of their youngest daughter, Margaret May, registered in Victoria in 1882, states at that time he was 46 years old from Belfast, Ireland.
We suspect he may have remarried in 1886 in Albury to Agnes Garing, herself widowed in 1882. It looks like she was of a similar age and from the same place, Granya, Victoria.
We have no details as to how and when he got to Australia or of his death.
Information provided about Julia is priceless - thank you so much.
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The marriage between John CARLILE & Agnes GARING appears in the newspaper:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0hjl/
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Agnes Maria CARLILE (formerly GARING, nee KELLY) died 14 April 1922:
CARLILE Agnes Maria age 78yrs d. 1922 FLTON (Flemington) #5186
Father: Unknown
Mother: Unknown UNKNOWN
Have you read her Will & Probate files available online at PROV?
http://210.8.122.120/indexes/index_search.asp?searchid=54
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John Carlile may have remarried Agnes Garing in 1886. Agnes was around the same age, from the same place (Granya) and had been widowed in 1882.
Here is the first marriage for Agnes.
GARING William Henry
KELLY Agnes Maria
Year 1862
Reg Number: 2076
There are two GARING burials at the GRANYA CEMETERY
This is probably AGNES' husband and I think it's described location is abit odd!!
GARING William Henry aged 49y Date 15-5-1882 Headstone alone in paddock beside fenced in graveyard. At Granya.
This is her son -
GARING Thomas Frederick aged 21y 1884 at Granya
The couple had a number of chn. the last birth in 1878.
There are CARLILE burials also at GRANYA, but I do not see JULIA/JUDETH there or at surrounding cemeteries.
NOTE, My resources may well be incomplete of course.
Sue
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David Weatherill has some notes about the Granya grave & cemetery here:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AUS-VIC-NE/2008-09/1222584522
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Hi, I came across this site thought it may be useful given the area they came from in Ireland.
https://sites.google.com/site/countycavanirelandgenweb/census-1821/canan-1821
Neil
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AGNES CARLILE is the only one of the surname registered to vote at an address in CAMPBELLFIELD in 1903.
In 1909, she is the only one of the surname registered to vote at an address in ASCOT VALE, Melbourne. She is living off "independent means"
She is buried at Fawkner Park Cemetery, and again, she is alone.
It would seem to signify widowhood or estrangement from JOHN by the first decade.
Sue
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Her Will states she is a 'Widow' .
I can see that John was still alive in 1891, nothing further atm.
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Thanks Sue,
Yes I had tracked those records to see that she was on her own by 1903 after marrying John Carlile in 1886.
Still trying to determine what happened to John.
I have sent an email to a contact address for the Granya Pioneer Museum. They mention on their website they have old family records of the Carlile family.
Brendan.
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There are lots of mentions of John Carlile in Wodonga and Towong Sentinel - mostly court cases.
It seems that Agnes was maintaining her farm and property which she owned before marriage
- application for road through her land in 1890 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article69563272
- both John and Agnes separately sue same man for trespass in 1887 and court considers hearing both cases together but because Agnes owned her property before her marriage they were heard separately http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article70748690
John charged with cattle-stealing - dismissed 1887 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article70749153
John sues for persecution 1888 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article70749985
John J Carlile applies for permit to occupy in 1893 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article69565382
Unfortunately I didn't find an obit or a death notice for John - just these little snippets (and there are several more)
regards,
Ros
Adding: They probably had a very happy marriage living on separate properties ;D
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Hi 999WOODBURN,
;D ;D Welcome to RootsChat!! ;D ;D
This post by JM will help with finding those dreaded blanks on the marriage certificate:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Debra :)
Welcome from me too ! And thanks Debra for mentioning that thread, as those dreaded blanks are so very very frequent on mcs particularly in the decades before WWI. I can see that the pdf clearly shows that mc at Albury has NOT been reconciled by the NSW BDM Reg Gen's Offices. If it had, then the details missing from Column 5 (birthplace), column 7 (ages for the bride and the groom) Columns 9 and 10 (parents details, including nee names for their mums) AND the NSW BDM stamps re that reconcilation would be on the image. Here is a link to a thread where I have uploaded an image and made some comments. (at reply # 12)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,557757.0.html
So from the pdf that Brendan has uploaded, you will notice that ALL the handwriting is in the one hand, which I believe would be the RC priest's handwriting. The Church registers at Albury will be the best starting point to seek further info.
Cheers, JM
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I have acquired further information about John Carlile from the Granya Pioneer Museum - still nothing conclusive, but may help anyone else is interested in this enquiry.
Apparently John was the first of the Carliles to come to Australia. Originally coming for a visit, he decided to stay and became a policeman. When news of this reached the family back in Ireland, the other son, Robert, was sent to fetch him home. This could have been around 1851. Robert had been studying to become a doctor but on finding his brother, he too decided that his future lay in this new country.
It seems the two brothers both settled in NSW around the Albury district. John married Julia Reilly in Albury in 1862. Robert had married a widow Mary O'Connor (nee Clancy). The births of John and Julia's first 6 children were registered in Albury. Robert and Mary also had 6 (or 7) children registered in Albury.
Both brothers sucessfully applied for land in the Granya area around the mid 1870's. John seems to have had a chequered life. Looks like he was swindled out of his land over a road contract deal he had with a Reilly (possibly his brother-in-law) who made off with the entire payroll. John was forced to sell up to settle the debt. Following the death of John's first wife, Julia, in 1885 from a gastric ulcer, he married the widow Agnes Garing in 1886. Hearsay has it that Agnes "kicked" John and his family out around two years later.
So he had lost his land and his 2nd wife, so presumably moved on. It is not exactly known what became of him or where he died, although it seems some of his family remained in the district.
My wife's connection is John's youngest daughter, Margaret May who married a Sydney James Cross. From what I have been told, very little was spoken about in the Cross family with respect to family history. There was a vague reference to a "cruel step-mother". Could this have been Agnes?
Hope this is of interest to some. I will keep looking to see if I can find out more about John.
Brendan
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When I saw that you had located a brother ROBERT for JOHN, I thought perhaps his death would give the parents of the men.
Not so lucky! :D
CARLILE Robt
Father Unknown
MotherUnknown UNKNOWN
Age 74
Birth Place
Death Place Granya
Year 1903
Reg. Number 5869
Sue
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Going by this Agnes (formerly Garing, nee Kelly) CARLILE was in Pascoe Vale by 1893:
http://www.moreland.vic.gov.au/mccwr/_assets/main/lib91135/augustvolume2nthbellst.pdf
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Given that the last mention I can see of John CARLILE in the newspapers is 1891 & his youngest son Richard named his brother Robert as NOK on his 1916 WWI enlistment. That leaves us a window of 25yrs that John probably met his demise :-\
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Quote from the item linked above
- a hand drawn map of Pascoe Vale in 1900 identifies this house as
occupied by the 'Carlyle' family (Williams, 1982:9).
Wonder who the "family" was :D
Sue
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In trying to trace what happened to John Carlile (see my previous post), I have been looking at his children.
In order of birth, this is what I know ( I think!)
Annie b. 1863, m. Richard Hudson 1889 (aged 26), d. 1923 (aged 60)
Ellen b. 1865, m. Thomas Rollings 1885 (aged 20), d. 1901 (aged 36)
Julia b. 1868, m. ?? Richard Brown 1886 (aged 18), d. ??
Mary Jane b. 1871, m. Elliot Rollings 1889 (aged 18), d. 1901 (aged 30)
Robert b. 1873, m. ?? d. ?? 1967 Beechworth, Vic (aged 94)
John Bernard b. 1876 m. ?? d. ?? 1933 Cambellfield, Vic (aged 57)
Richard b. 1879 m. ?? d. ?? 1941 Cambellfield, Vic (aged 62)
Margaret May b. 1882 m. 1906 Sydney James Cross, Wodonga, Vic (aged 24), d. 1964 Mooroopna, Vic (aged 82)
Can anyone help with or confirm some of the ??'s.
The fact that Margaret May married in Wodonga (according to Sydney's death certificate) seems to indicate John remained in the district with his family following the breakdown of his 2nd marriage around 1888.
But what of her older brothers, Robert, John and Richard? Did they marry at all and if so where? This might give me some clue as to the location of the family around the time.
Brendan
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Here is Richard's death notice
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article8183486
regards,
Ros
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Hi
There is a Richard Carlile WW1 age 37 in 1916 born Albury with a brother Robert living in Victoria
Muss
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Ellen Rollings and her 15 month old baby were burnt to death in a bark hut in October 1901
but trove just crashed :( so I can't give you a link
regards,
Ros
Edit to add : http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9613573
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Unpleasant allegations re. JOHN BERNARD in 1930 :(
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4061880?searchTerm="john bernard carlile"&searchLimits=
Sue
ADDING
This man died in CAULFIELD, not CAMPBELLFIELD (Reg Number: 5285)
So too did RICHARD die in CAULFIELD not Campbellfield (Reg Number: 5582)
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Richard is buried at Preston Cemetery:
CARLILE RICHARD age 60yrs
Burial: 24/06/1941
Area: F
Grave No: 04747
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John Bernard is at Springvale Cemetery:
CARLYLE JOHN BERNARD
Date of Service: 11/07/1933
Burial Type: BURIED
Location Details: ROMAN CATHOLIC, MONUMENTAL, COMPARTMENT C SECTION 9 GRAVE 39
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Julia died in 1953:
BROWN JULIA d. 1953 MANLY #16809
Parents: William & Julia
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HI,
Brendan, I presume you have the marriage certificate for Margaret May in 1906, what does it say about Margaret's father?
I have wondered if John Carlile actually went back to Ireland to die there. There are a few other John Carlile deaths in Australia but nothing that really points to it being this particular John Carlile.
Richard Hudson, husband of Annie Carlile and father of Alice, also disapears off the map, before Alice's murder in 1913. I have wondered if Richard [senior] not junior who was killed in WW1 served and was killed in the Boer War, there are no records though. John Carlile on the other hand would have been Sixty something in the 90's so it's doubtfull that he went off to war.
mum mum
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Been "off the air" for a couple of days, so thanks again to all who have taken an interest providing information and suggestions.
I haven't got a copy of Margaret Carlile's marriage certificate, but that might provide a clue as to whether her father John Carlile was still alive when she married in 1906. If all else fails, I will give that a shot.
This reminds me of another search which went on for an ancestor on my own family tree.
My great-great grandfather Private Robert Banks (British Army), arrived in Australia around 1841, spent time in Tasmania as a prison guard, then in the South Australian police force, before settling around the Bendigo area. Around 1866 or therabouts, he just disappeared off the scene leaving his wife to raise the children. For many years what became of him was a complete mystery, until someone finally came across his admission to a Bendigo "Benevolent" asylum around 1891. He died there in 1898 and was buried in an unmarked grave at the White Hills cemetery.
Theory is the marriage broke down, probably alcohol related, and g-g grandfather Robert was not spoken of again. Those of his children who survived into adulthood eventually lived productive and reputable lives and it is thought it was better not to say to much about their father.
Sorry to get off the topic - but it just shows what can happen.
Brendan
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Hi Brendan,
I was going through my certificates and thought I had found another one for you, I have another Carlile marriage certificate among my own collection.
Unfortunately it is for Ellen Mary Carlile, daughter of Robert Carlile, John's brother. ellen married Thomas Williams in Chiltern in 1886, she is described as a lady from Bungil, 17 years old, her father Robert is a farmer. The Victorian certificates seem to be very well detailed from this period so it may be worth $18 to buy Margaret's marriage cert.
mum mum
Something ese that you need to be careful of is that John Carlile had a nephew John, born in 1872 who was living at Granya, possibly some of the newspaper mentions of John Carlile in the early 90's could be this younger John.
There is also a variation of the spelling of Carlile on the electoral rolls in Indi in the early parts of the 20th century, even members of the one family are spelt diffenently on the roll. Carlile, Carlyse, and Carlisle.
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Still looking for information on John Carlile and dug out the following today.
You will see from an earlier post of mine that John Carlile was the first of the two Carlile brothers to come to Australia, followed by Robert.
Given that John came for a look around, it wasn't likely that he was an assisted immigrant. Also, given that Robert was sent to fetch him home, he would have been unassisted as well.
Following two unassisted arrivals were both in Melbourne.
John Carlisle, aged 24, on the "Australia" in 1852
Robert Carlisle, aged 21, on the "Red Jacket" in 1854
Dates and ages are somewhere around the mark, although it would make John a bit older than he had claimed to be at the time of his wedding and at the birth of his youngest child, Margaret May. Also doesn't quite fit Robert's age at his death in 1903, but not that far out.
Can anyone comment on the possibility of people making their way from Melbourne to Albury Wodonga area in those days? I had been thinking they were more likely to have arrived in Sydney. We know they were both in NSW at Table Top, just north of Albury, prior to taking up land at Granya around 1875.
Finally, would the microfiche copies of the original shipping records for these arrivals provide me with any more information?
Brendan
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Hi, If you can lay your hands on the original records it will have loads of great information. Parents names, wether Alive or deceased, port of departure, how long there, birthplace, age., wether any relatives in country (important in Robert case)
If they were unassisted any companions. Very worthwhile.
If you have found the link it should have where to send off for cert copies?
Neil
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Whoops forgot the link :-[ :-[
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/
I tried to modiy my post and it spat it back 8)
Neil
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Hi Brendan
The Public Records Office page has a bit of information about accessing the microfilm. I would check what other libraries hold copies of the microfilm, you may even be able to get it in WA.
Travel between Melbourne and the border did not seem to be a problem also between Sydney and Albury,
melbourne is closer though. I'm not sure when coaches started running but people were moving around, making our job interesting trying to track their movements.
mum mum
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DEATH
RIELLY Lawrence father James Mother Julia CARROL
Age 74
Death place GRAMJA-----------------GRANYA
1884 12473
Index to Wills, Probate and Administration Records 1841-1925
Lawrence Rielly
File number 60/748
Death Date 6 Dec 1884
Grant Date 17 Mar 1896
Nature of Grant P
Occupation Laborer
Residence Granya
To whom committed
VPRS 28 P0
VPRS 28 P1
VPRS 28 P2
VPRS 28 P3
VPRS 7591 P1
VPRS 7591 P2
VPRS 7592 P1
www.prov.vic.gov.au
DEATH
RIELLY Ann
Father, Thully Thos Mother, Unknown UNKNOWN
Age 84
Death Place: Granya
18971689
:D